The West Tower

So our intentions will be to try to ally with the other teams against the Dutch and the Vikings then?

What if these two civilizations are our closest neighbors? (Just trying to visualize a possibility that we probably should make contingencies for just in case...) Or to make it worse .. if the map is a big central landmass with 6 small islands around containing the 6 teams - what if we have the Dutch as our closest neighbor at one side, and the Vikings at the other?

Nothing is certain yet of course, but Viking and Dutch have some advantages due to their UB's. I would certainly avoid allying with the Dutch at all cost since late game they will have much better production than us and hence we will lose any peacefull winning condition (space, culture). The Vikings though might prove usefull ally...
 
If this is a case of everyone starting on smallish islands off the coast of a huge landmass, then:

1) The main purpose of cities on our starting island will be to produce the stuff needed for colonising the mainland. Given the nature of colonial expenses, and the distribution of resources we have, I would only build three cities here (each taking 2 corn for whip-fuel), before looking to the mainland.

2) We'll want Fishing very soon, so we can start exploring the coast, and Sailing in good time to explore the interior, with a view to finding sites for settlement.

3) Barbs could be a real problem on the mainland, especially towards the centre, so it could be worth teching Hunting to get some Holkans to do our exploring. It'll also be interesting to see if anyone builds the Great Wall. Its barb-stopping properties would be utterly wasted here, but on a barb-infested mainland it could be incredibly powerful.
 
It also seems that we can keep a bare minimum of military (as in, enough to prevent unhappiness) on our main island. The cities there are basically untouchable until Astronomy.
 
So next turn we are finishing agriculture and can start on a new tech. Since no better plan was put on the table we will go with fishing next which is needed for scouting workboat and for 20% on pottery.
 
Been working on a few openings,

looks like BW can get a settler about t32(but we wanna put it overlapping),

t35 going corn, corn but only finish second gems on last turn of settler

corn gems gems corn for worker is t37

I need to get commerce numbers for all these, it's incomplete. It feels like the BW whip start is the fastest, and it only has a 3 turn lag catching up from pop 2 on corn farms to the gems (other gems worked by new city if overlapping). Usually I'm less likely to overlap when Expansive but this land almost forces us to. I'll try and get those commerce numbers to do a proper comparision we probably lose 4-6 turns of worked gems for 5 turns of ealier settler if we go BW.

Unless we have needs for high commerce. And let me know if there's any other opening you want simmed. I also remember doing a corn gems gems chop settler for like t33-35. But if we have bronze in capitol, the prolly a 2 worker start up to 5 pop settler pump would be optimal by t100+. With this island we are allow to skimp fog busting and push expansion to the max. We hardly need monuments at ~5 cities.
 
Been working on a few openings,

looks like BW can get a settler about t32(but we wanna put it overlapping),

t35 going corn, corn but only finish second gems on last turn of settler

corn gems gems corn for worker is t37

I need to get commerce numbers for all these, it's incomplete. It feels like the BW whip start is the fastest, and it only has a 3 turn lag catching up from pop 2 on corn farms to the gems (other gems worked by new city if overlapping). Usually I'm less likely to overlap when Expansive but this land almost forces us to. I'll try and get those commerce numbers to do a proper comparision we probably lose 4-6 turns of worked gems for 5 turns of ealier settler if we go BW.

Unless we have needs for high commerce. And let me know if there's any other opening you want simmed. I also remember doing a corn gems gems chop settler for like t33-35. But if we have bronze in capitol, the prolly a 2 worker start up to 5 pop settler pump would be optimal by t100+. With this island we are allow to skimp fog busting and push expansion to the max. We hardly need monuments at ~5 cities.

Does going fishing now change anything? Even if we chop settler we can have fishing/BW way before the chops.

The logic is that first we will put some hammers in workboat before second worker and second BW gets 20% pre req bonus that fishing does not, so you gain a few commerce by teching BW when you have the gems worked and teching first tier techs like fishing and wheel before you work the gems.


The "normal" plan in my mind would be to improve corn, gems, gems, corn then both workers chop and road...settler around turn 36-37 if I remember. You delay settler 4-5 turns but the capital is working both gems and both corns so in effect you will make up for the lost time with the next units and the extra commerce.

In my mind slavery should be used in our second city, not the capital. Second city can be put in the north to use 2 corns and 2 pop slave all our settlers and maybe some units (while capital grows with cotages and 1 corn making galley and stuff).

So I am not convinced that hurrying the settler 4-5 turns earlier is any better, because we need capital size 4 and both corns improved so second city can take the second corn from capital straight away to be more efficient (food sharing).

Also taking advantage of at least the 2 capital gems is important regardless of what tech path we chose I feel (fast monarchy, CoL, math or even straight metal casting...lots of options).
 
(...)
Also note that there is another important reason for delaying BW for as long as we actually need it. Fishing and wheel does not get the pre req 1.2 modifier that Bronze working does. That means that by t=eching fishing and wheel first we will be getting extra commerce when we tech BW (after improving gems).

(...)
The logic is that first we will put some hammers in workboat before second worker and second BW gets 20% pre req bonus that fishing does not, so you gain a few commerce by teching BW when you have the gems worked and teching first tier techs like fishing and wheel before you work the gems.(...)

But Sir! It is true we gain more extra beakers per turn due to the 1.2 modifier if our output is bigger, but when our output is smaller, we gain them for a longer time, for effectively* the same result. It's possible to look at the 1.2 modifier as a discount: BW comes to us for an effective price of listed price/1.2 .

But if the tech article linked to earlier by Sir Aivoturso is correct, we could gain a few beakers on Fishing due to researching BW first: since overflow beakers use modifiers of the previous tech, if our overflow from BW to fishing was big, we could gain up to around 5 extra beakers (if both mines are worked).

* Excluding rounding. But our current beaker rate is divisible by 10 (in fact, it is exactly 10 - 9 produced and 1 from having a city), so we can't get a better deal on rounding than this.
 
But Sir! It is true we gain more extra beakers per turn due to the 1.2 modifier if our output is bigger, but when our output is smaller, we gain them for a longer time, for effectively* the same result. It's possible to look at the 1.2 modifier as a discount: BW comes to us for an effective price of listed price/1.2 .

But if the tech article linked to earlier by Sir Aivoturso is correct, we could gain a few beakers on Fishing due to researching BW first: since overflow beakers use modifiers of the previous tech, if our overflow from BW to fishing was big, we could gain up to around 5 extra beakers (if both mines are worked).

* Excluding rounding. But our current beaker rate is divisible by 10 (in fact, it is exactly 10 - 9 produced and 1 from having a city), so we can't get a better deal on rounding than this.

We are now making 9 commerce = 9 beakers because we are teching a first level tech.

So if we start BW now we will be making 9x1.2=10 beackers per turn

If we wait for gems first we will have 17x1.2=20 beackers per turn


So effectivelly every turn we tech BW without gems we lose 2 beackers/per turn. That is why it is better to get the first tier techs first and after we start working gems start BW.

Regarding overflow I have not calculated exacty what will overflow in what order...but the max overflow we can get with the gems in ideal situation is 16 beackers which means 3 beackers won at most...I am talking about 2 beackers a turn so at least 16-20 beackers gain.
 
We are now making 9 commerce = 9 beakers because we are teching a first level tech.

So if we start BW now we will be making 9x1.2=10 beackers per turn

If we wait for gems first we will have 17x1.2=20 beackers per turn


So effectivelly every turn we tech BW without gems we lose 2 beackers/per turn. That is why it is better to get the first tier techs first and after we start working gems start BW.

Regarding overflow I have not calculated exacty what will overflow in what order...but the max overflow we can get with the gems in ideal situation is 16 beackers which means 3 beackers won at most...I am talking about 2 beackers a turn so at least 16-20 beackers gain.

Thanks for clarifying the logic behind fishing before BW, was a little foggy on the point.
 
How many cities are we intending on the starting island?

It looks like 3 would be plenty IMO.

How many of those cities are intended to be coastal? 1? 2? 3? more???
 
I think three cities is best, three cities on the coasts leaves us vunerable to naval invasion, and we have no seafood to use as an excuse to build on the coast. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can a city use sea tiles of it's not on the coast?
 
How many cities are we intending on the starting island?

It looks like 3 would be plenty IMO.

How many of those cities are intended to be coastal? 1? 2? 3? more???

The island fits 5 cities including capital easily and can do 6 as well...all coastal ofcourse....but 6 cities would be a bit tight so my view is on 5 cities including capital.
 
Of course it can but it canot make lighthouse so all sea tiles will be 1 food.

Ah yes, thats what I was thinking about, thanks. I know it was a easy question but for some reason I got it confused with not being able to build a lighthouse for extra food, I guess thats what long days at work do to you :).
 
We can do 5-6 cities eventually, but 3 is the most I would want to put on this island before expanding overseas (assuming there are suitable sites easily available across the water).

Edit: Though, of course, however many cities His Majesty wishes to build will clearly be the correct number... :bowdown:
 
I personally see 3 real good city sites with 2 corns each. After that, we need to be expanding on the "mainland" with city #4 prepping for a palace switch ASAP I think.

There are 2 versions of similar dot maps attached. An inland version, and a coastal version.
 
It may be a bit safer several millennia from now to build inland, but I don't think we'll succeed by being safe several millennia from now. We should build on the coast and take advantage of our Financial trait.
 
We are now making 9 commerce = 9 beakers because we are teching a first level tech.

So if we start BW now we will be making 9x1.2=10 beackers per turn

If we wait for gems first we will have 17x1.2=20 beackers per turn


So effectivelly every turn we tech BW without gems we lose 2 beackers/per turn. That is why it is better to get the first tier techs first and after we start working gems start BW.

Regarding overflow I have not calculated exacty what will overflow in what order...but the max overflow we can get with the gems in ideal situation is 16 beackers which means 3 beackers won at most...I am talking about 2 beackers a turn so at least 16-20 beackers gain.

I went ahead and prepared an example, Your Majesty. Let's say we'll start working our first mine after 10 turns of research.
BW cost: 179
Fishing cost: 59
Our research before mine: 10 (9+1 base)
Our research after mine: 17 (9+1 base+7 mine tile)

Scenario 1: Fishing -> BW
6 turns to complete fishing at rate 10. Overflow: 1 beaker.
4 turns of BW research at rate 10*1.2=12. BW 49/179
7 turns of BW research at rate 17*1.2=20. Overflow: 10 beakers.

Time to finish: 17 turns
Beakers researched: 59+179+10=248

Scenario 2: BW -> Fishing
10 turns of BW research at rate 12. BW 120/179
3 turns of BW research at rate 20. Overflow: 1 beaker.
4 turns to complete fishing at rate 17. Overflow: 10 beakers.

Time to finish: 17 turns
Beakers researched: 59+179+10=248

The example shows there is no major difference to research rate from going fishing first.
 
I went ahead and prepared an example, Your Majesty. Let's say we'll start working our first mine after 10 turns of research.
BW cost: 179
Fishing cost: 59
Our research before mine: 10 (9+1 base)
Our research after mine: 17 (9+1 base+7 mine tile)

Scenario 1: Fishing -> BW
6 turns to complete fishing at rate 10. Overflow: 1 beaker.
4 turns of BW research at rate 10*1.2=12. BW 49/179
7 turns of BW research at rate 17*1.2=20. Overflow: 10 beakers.

Time to finish: 17 turns
Beakers researched: 59+179+10=248

Scenario 2: BW -> Fishing
10 turns of BW research at rate 12. BW 120/179
3 turns of BW research at rate 20. Overflow: 1 beaker.
4 turns to complete fishing at rate 17. Overflow: 10 beakers.

Time to finish: 17 turns
Beakers researched: 59+179+10=248

The example shows there is no major difference to research rate from going fishing first.

Nice analysis! The mystery base beacker makes up for the 1 commerce so the difference is only 1 commerce per turn not 2 as I thought....small difference I agree but small things ad up.... of course in this example you go BW straight after fishing but we could put some turns at wheel as well so that all the BW turns are at size 2 with gems.

But is there a point of going straight BW anyway? With fishing we start a workboat as well so we get a workboat a few turns earlier.
 
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