SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

shyuhe said:

From my previous post, techs we need:
<snipped some techs>
optics
compass
calendar
construction
currency (to pay for our cities)

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Have we given much thought to the relative order of researching these techs?

For example, it is possible but very unlike that an AI will research Currency or Compass for us.

However, it is feasible that an AI will research Calendar for us, particularly since we don't need it for Optics but only for Astronomy (i.e. we can put off research on it for quite some time).

Construction can probably wait until after Astronomy and might even come in via trading (assuming that we aren't the world's most hated Heathens by that point).

Really, I think that the big question is Currency: do we go for it before going down the Compass -> Machinery (possibly Lightbulbed) -> Optics path?

We will have both pre-requisites for Currency (making the tech a bit cheaper) and we will have 6 Cities, giving us a realistic +3 Commerce per City, which equals +18 Commerce per turn, via Foreign Trade Routes.


My opinion is that:
I'd like for us to self-tech Currency after Alphabet + Math.

I'd also like for us to delay other non-Optics-beeline techs until later (unless we're at a point where we need to start research on Machinery and we still have a chance of getting a Great Engineer, in which case we might switch to Calendar at 0% Research or something).

After that, I think that we should grab Calendar (if we haven't gotten it in trade).

Finally, I feel that we should hold off on research on techs like Construction and partial-research on Civil Service until after the above techs have been researched.

We can worry about the details after your set but my general thought is that we want to start our military build-up as soon as we can so that we'll just be loading boats shortly after we unlock maces.

I'm not sure about math -- I've had decent luck trading for it but sometimes the AIs all start building the HG and refuse to trade it. We will almost certainly need to self-tech construction because of how the AI weights it so that's something we might want early (to start building catapults).

We can estimate how many turns of research we have to see if currency is worth picking up before or after astronomy.

I think Currency is always worth researching first in these situations - it pays off very quickly. Especially with a base 2 cpt for trade routes. I imagine:
COL - Alpha - (Math) - Philosophy - Currency - (IW) - Compass - Machinery (maybe earlier - depends on GE timing) - Optics - (Calendar) - Astronomy - CS
Brackets are hopeful trades. We can also potentially save cash for some turns, if we need to wait on something like Math to open in trade. Hold on Construction to see if we can get a trade. We should have it before CS, but no need for it until production capacity is there. Not sure on the timing of those.
GE will also bulb Eng after we have Machinery, as an option.

After running several Granary -> Lighthouse scenarios in Stone City, the best one that I can come up with has 8 more Hammers than the current Lighthouse -> Granary approach, as per the PPP.

However, this Granary -> Lighthouse approach falls short by 3 Food and 6 Commerce. Those 3 Food translate into 1 turn sooner growing from Size 3 to Size 4, so the difference in Food will make the difference in growth by 1 turn.


Since either scenario will get us a Warrior in Pig City on the needed Turn 141, I am strongly leaning towards sticking with the current PPP's approach of Lighthouse -> Granary in Stone City.

I am still going to try and run a couple of competing Lighthouse -> Granary approaches, but from what I recall, I already did a good job of optimizing Stone City for a Lighthouse -> Granary approach (I just did not take careful notes the first time), so I won't try too hard as I doubt that I'll be able to beat the results.

I'm fine with either method, as I don't think either option is clearly superior.

I wasn't able to find a better method for Lighthouse -> Granary in Stone City. That said, I'm going to do a partial runthrough before getting started, to make sure that the new Worker actions make sense and that I've updated my copy of the spreadsheet appropriately.

Then, I'll need to grab some grub.

So, it'll probably be a couple of hours before I get started on the real deal.

And we are off to the races! In other words, I will be starting shortly...

We begin by Opening Borders with Ragnar, which gives us a Foreign Trade Route with the Scandanavian City of Haithabu in Marble City, while redistributing our existing English and Spanish Foreign Trade Routes.

Pig City starts on its Granary, and with nothing else left to do, I advance the turn. On the following turn (T116), we proceed to build a Warrior in Stone City, which follows the recently-produced Work Boat that is destined for Pig City's Magical Fish.

Gold City hires its second Scientist and our fervent quest for Philosophical enlightenment begins!

A glimpse of Isabella's capital of Madrid is had, showing us the #3 ranked City in the world, also known as the centre of Buddhism.



Also, Ragnar is now Pleased with Isabella, so he is no longer willing to be bribed into declaring war on her.

It is Turn 118.

Cathy flips her ponytail at us, gives a little wink, and asks for us for closer relations via a little OB action, if you know what I mean.

I politely tell her that we can only currently juggle relations with two women at once ('Bella and Vicky) and turn her down as nicely as possible.


Paris grows to Size 5, on schedule, and starts working the second GH Mine.

It is Turn 119, 1025 BC.

Aha! Pay dirt! I had lost track of the Barb Galley pursuing our Work Boat explorer (I was guessing where it was but wasn't 100% certain), but now I have definitive confirmation of the fact that he kept following us... as... get this... he has Pillaged Isabella's Clam Resource!

We can tell because she suddenly wants a Clam Resource in trade. There is only 1 location that the Barb Galley can possibly be, so continuing to utilize this tactic is too good of an opportunity to pass up!



In fact, I am going to offer her one of our Clam Resources for her Fish Resource. That way, she won't go getting any fancy ideas about getting Willem's spare Clam in a Resource-trading deal. We don't want the AIs to actually PROFIT from our little bit of mischief, do we?


I have tried scouting to the SE of Isabella's lands but it doesn't look like there is a connection to Ragnar's area there, so I will have to (carefully) double-back a bit and head to the NE (towards the east of Isabella's lands). While I'm at it, I'll see if I can't "pick up" our Barb Galley "tail" again. Talk about a royal romp of good fun!

Just make sure you don't run into the barbs when you turn back! Also, Madrid on a hill will be annoying

It is T120, 1000 BC. Last turn, I noticed that Cathy had Opened Borders with Willem. This turn, she has Opened Borders with Ragnar.

Also on this turn, Ragnar and Isabella Opened Borders with each other.

So, the age of AI dimness is ending and their tech pace will begin to pick up speed.

At a minimum, two AIs know Writing (Willem and Ragnar), but it is also possible that more than 2 of these AIs know Writing.

shyuhe said:

Just make sure you don't run into the barbs when you turn back!

Click to expand...

Worry not, my dear fellow: we still had movement points for the Work Boat on that turn, so things are fine.

It is Turn 121, 975 BC.

Of interest is the fact that both Catherine and Willem have an extra Clam to trade, while Ragnar is still without one of his own. I believe that we should gift him one of our excess Clams before an AI-AI trade deal emerges. I will pause briefly in case anyone wants to raise an objection, but seeing as how only Cathy is anyone's Worst Enemy right now and we're doing our best to cancel and renew the trading deal with her, we should really have no risk by making this move (i.e. since Ragnar is no one's Worst Enemy) while getting a potential gain (less long-term positive Diplo benefits between the AIs).



In other news, both Madrid and Paris are moving up in the world on the Top 5 Cities' chart.



Also, as per the schedule:
Paris has hired an Engineer with the scraps of Food that it has managed to muster, while Stone City pumps out a man in a loincloth before beginning to build a house that will light up the seas. The loincloth-wearer has hopped on a boat and has set sail for the Island of Copper.

Okay, I made the gift of a Clam to Ragnar and have moved on to the next turn. Vicky and Isabella are still currently only bragging about their Archers.

Of note is the fact that Willem appears to be going for Alphabet. Also, of note, is the fact that he seems to have increased Espionage Spending in order to hide this fact from us, as I only saw Alphabet "pop up" and then "disappear." I almost wonder if I was hallucinating, but no, his Espionage values have climbed, so I'm pretty certain that I am right.


I've played forwards to Turn 124 and we are working the Coast instead of the Cottage in Paris. We should found Confucianism next turn by not using Binary Science, as per the plan. We're also 1 Espionage Point away from knowing Willem's research, so I should be able to confirm whether or not he is going for Alphabet.

If he is going for Alphabet, the plan will be to set Research to 0% (we'll want to do so for a few turns anyway) but with Math instead of Alphabet selected. Since we'll only be putting in a tiny amount of Flasks per turn, we can always switch back to Alphabet later, but I'm pretty certain that the AIs in BtS are more than happy to trade around Alphabet, even if they believe that they have a monopoly on it, so I am THINKING that we should be able to get it in trade.

As for Math... well... if we don't research Math next, then what should we target? Machinery? We might just end up Lightbulbing it.

Iron Working? That one is almost guaranteed to come in via trade.

Aesthetics, so that we can trade it away for Alphabet and Math in order to avoid giving away tech like Metal Casting? Hmmm, maybe, but it does sound totally off of our plan, so, no, probably not.

Currency, Calendar, and Construction all require Math (or Alphabet in the case of Currency), while Compass requires Iron Working... so, I don't see much choice here other than to target Math (at a 0% Science Rate) after learning Code of Laws.

It is Turn 125, 875 BC, and Willem is indeed Researching Alphabet. He is listed as being 6 turns away from completing it, but I often find those estimates of AI Research to be inaccurate, so he might learn it sooner or he might learn it later. Still, I have strong hopes that we'll get it in trade and have set our Research Slider to 0% on Math.

We just finished whipping a Trireme in Paris, which will appear next turn.

We have also founded Confucianism! Yaaaaa!

So, where was it founded? Unfortunately, not in the "almost certain to be founded in" Gold City but instead, in Marble City. At least that location is a bit more centralized than Gold City.

We're also playing a game of "chicken" with a Barb Galley on the eastern edge of our empire, using our Galley.

They Galley safely dropped a Warrior off on Copper Island, but I was caught unawares by a Barb Galley and didn't have time to get the Trireme there if the Barb Galley decided to be at its most malicious and go after one of our Seafood Resources. So, our Galley is currently leading the Barb Galley a bit to the east, after which we'll circle around back.

We'll soon have our Trireme sailing, so future threats will be a little bit less risky to deal with.

There's no real risk from the Barb Galley that I know about: the real risk could potentially come from a Barb Galley that I don't know about, but I wasn't about to let our Seafood take the brunt of things. As I said, the Trireme will be available next turn in order to pitch in and help out.

Marble can pop a GP so it's not bad. Not ideal but not bad.

I would also consider cancelling the clams trade with Ragnar after 10 turns. We could lose one to barb galleys if things go south and we don't really care too much about diplo in this game--just AI development rates.

If we had known Vicky would still only have archers, we probably could have rushed her As soon as we find a metal source, of course.