Spanish Civil War ToT Mod
- Thread starter McMonkey
- Start date
tootall_2012
King
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2012
- Messages
- 918
Hi McMonkey,
I'd been wanting to tackle your scenario for some time now but was busy trying to work on my own project. After I ran into a snag I decided to take a break and give yours a try. I'll admit I was also more than a little intimidated by its size, e.g. managing the number of units and cities seem like a daunting task to undertake.
I consider myself somewhat of a history buff but I will concede that I was only familiar with the main lines of the conflict and not so much the specifics. So after reviewing your help file I decided I should educate myself a little more, before playing the game, by reading some additional articles on the web.
After playing the first couple of turns I immediately realized how much research and effort you had to have placed to design this scenario. It faithfully recreates the opening Nationalists campaign which immediately placed the Republicans on the defensive. You also took great care to identify all the different factions that were involved on both sides, which were many and varied, and took great care to reproduce many of the unique historical events related to the conflict. It's hard to imagine any scenario recreating the atmosphere and chaos more accurately.
I especially like your usage of the riverbed terrain concept. I've long though that rivers should be seen as obstacles in Civilization, not advantages, and you've shown how it can be done. It's a very clever idea.
At the beginning it's unclear where you need to concentrate your forces but after a while you are able to discern a pattern in the Nationalist campaign and you act accordingly.
It was clear pretty early from the start that ultimately it would be impossible to hold on to the north of Spain. There's no way to reinforce it, other than with the production of local troops, and the Nationalists seem to benefit from a very generous supply of reinforcements. At that point, all you can hope to do is hold on as long as possible taking as many Nationalist down as you can.
That's why I adopted, from the beginning, a strategy of hit and run whenever possible, i.e. attacking vulnerable units on riverbeds, exposed artillery or bomber units. I figured that this is a war of attrition and that in the end the Nationalists would receive a very large but finite number of units. The more units you can eliminate, without compromising your own position, the better your long term survival might be. At least, that was the idea.
Without spoiling the surprise for others, the anarchist rebellions I encountered were, though historical, terribly inconvenient and unwelcome. They certainly highlighted the great difficulties' the Republicans faced during this extremely brutal conflict.
For quite a while I was able, through great effort, to hold the Nationalists along three fronts. The first along the Motril, Guadix, Jaen, Cordoba, Puertollano, Guadalupe and Talavera line. The second around Madrid along Toledo, Brunette, Boadilla Segovia, Samosierra, Guadalajara and Brihuega line. Finally, the third front from Sagunto, Castellon, Alcaniz, Fraga, Barbastro to Viella.
I managed to survive till May 1938 when my entire Madrid front finally collapsed. I realized at that time that it was game over for the Republicans and that it was just a matter of time before the Nationalists would overrun the rest of the country. Subsequent review of the forces in play confirmed my analysis. I was down to 332 to the Nationalists 705 total units (which is in itself not a wholly accurate representation of the disparity because the latter's forces are superior in quality, especially their air units). The total number of troops generated, up to that date, was 1161 Republican to 1784 Nationalists (this is when you add the still active units to the killed units).
I believe I can trace the primary, if not the sole, reason for this collapse back to a particular event. Back in early 1937, in preparation for an eventual assault on my capital area I had taken the time, in order to protect my right flank, to set up a fortified defensive line to the north-east and east of Guadalajara. As such, I was very unpleasantly surprised to see the Italian CTV offensive magically appear behind my defensive positions just outside the city's walls around March 1937. To counter this event I had to progressively weaken my left flank to repel the repeated Italian onslaughts with the predictable result that Boadilla on my left flank was eventually overrun by the Nationalist thereby opening up the way to Madrid.
Despite pumping in massive reinforcements I could never stem the tidal wave of Nationalist forces that were flowing into the sector, especially with the fact that my air force was inferior, both in quality and quantity, and therefore unable to wrest control of the sky from Franco's air force in this area.
In this regard, shouldn't the Italian CTV units be generated closer to the city of Calatayud?
Overall, I have to say this is an extremely well crafted scenario where great attention was paid to detail. The graphics and sounds used are quite beautiful and the historical texts go a long way to totally immerse the player into the war. Great job!!!
The only qualm I may have is to ask whether the forces in play might be a little too skewed in favor of the Nationalists.
As such, here are some of my observations/comments for the period up to May 1938 (the actual war, of course, lasted till April 1939 when the Republicans finally surrendered):
What's the reasoning behind the generation of the 'Stronghold' units when Republican cities are captured. Is there a historical context for it? I ask because it seems to give them an unfair advantage. By May 1938, I inventoried 201 such units, with 2-3 units generated for each captured Republican cities. Subsequent tests I made demonstrated that it took around five non-veteran 155mm artillery pieces to defeat 2 Stronghold units in a city (which of course rarely if ever only contained just two units). You quickly realize that it would take a massive number of such artillery units to retake Spain. In the end, I was only able to create a total of 55 artillery pieces, of which only 55% were 155mm (being itself the most expensive Republican unit to build), despite using my Supply units for the exclusive use of their production.
By May 1938, the Nationalists had received 62 Legionarii Class submarines. Assuming each unit corresponded to 1 or 2 subs that means between 62 to 124 subs! Did Italy really send that many subs to fight for Franco? This is important as you know because the Republicans are heavily dependent on Russians reinforcements from Odessa whose ships must run the gauntlet of Italian subs.
By May 1938, I inventoried a total of 244 air units having fought, and died, for the Nationalists (versus 127 for the Republicans). They still had 85 surviving units by that month (versus 43 for the Republicans). I'm assuming each air unit is the equivalent of an air squadron (say between 10 to 20 aircraft). That would mean the Axis would have supplied between 2440 to 4880 planes to Franco. Does that sound correct? This is particularly important because the superior quality of the German/Italian models help to dominate the battle field. But if they are receiving more than they actually received during the actual conflict it tends to skewer the odds even more against the Republicans.
This of course was my first attempt at your scenario and I see in retrospect some things I could have handled better. All the same, I'm curious to know at what difficulty level you would rate your scenario and whether you yourself have been able to win a decisive victory.
That said, this is a great addition to the community! Congratulations!!
I'd been wanting to tackle your scenario for some time now but was busy trying to work on my own project. After I ran into a snag I decided to take a break and give yours a try. I'll admit I was also more than a little intimidated by its size, e.g. managing the number of units and cities seem like a daunting task to undertake.
I consider myself somewhat of a history buff but I will concede that I was only familiar with the main lines of the conflict and not so much the specifics. So after reviewing your help file I decided I should educate myself a little more, before playing the game, by reading some additional articles on the web.
After playing the first couple of turns I immediately realized how much research and effort you had to have placed to design this scenario. It faithfully recreates the opening Nationalists campaign which immediately placed the Republicans on the defensive. You also took great care to identify all the different factions that were involved on both sides, which were many and varied, and took great care to reproduce many of the unique historical events related to the conflict. It's hard to imagine any scenario recreating the atmosphere and chaos more accurately.
I especially like your usage of the riverbed terrain concept. I've long though that rivers should be seen as obstacles in Civilization, not advantages, and you've shown how it can be done. It's a very clever idea.
At the beginning it's unclear where you need to concentrate your forces but after a while you are able to discern a pattern in the Nationalist campaign and you act accordingly.
It was clear pretty early from the start that ultimately it would be impossible to hold on to the north of Spain. There's no way to reinforce it, other than with the production of local troops, and the Nationalists seem to benefit from a very generous supply of reinforcements. At that point, all you can hope to do is hold on as long as possible taking as many Nationalist down as you can.
That's why I adopted, from the beginning, a strategy of hit and run whenever possible, i.e. attacking vulnerable units on riverbeds, exposed artillery or bomber units. I figured that this is a war of attrition and that in the end the Nationalists would receive a very large but finite number of units. The more units you can eliminate, without compromising your own position, the better your long term survival might be. At least, that was the idea.
Without spoiling the surprise for others, the anarchist rebellions I encountered were, though historical, terribly inconvenient and unwelcome. They certainly highlighted the great difficulties' the Republicans faced during this extremely brutal conflict.
For quite a while I was able, through great effort, to hold the Nationalists along three fronts. The first along the Motril, Guadix, Jaen, Cordoba, Puertollano, Guadalupe and Talavera line. The second around Madrid along Toledo, Brunette, Boadilla Segovia, Samosierra, Guadalajara and Brihuega line. Finally, the third front from Sagunto, Castellon, Alcaniz, Fraga, Barbastro to Viella.
I managed to survive till May 1938 when my entire Madrid front finally collapsed. I realized at that time that it was game over for the Republicans and that it was just a matter of time before the Nationalists would overrun the rest of the country. Subsequent review of the forces in play confirmed my analysis. I was down to 332 to the Nationalists 705 total units (which is in itself not a wholly accurate representation of the disparity because the latter's forces are superior in quality, especially their air units). The total number of troops generated, up to that date, was 1161 Republican to 1784 Nationalists (this is when you add the still active units to the killed units).
I believe I can trace the primary, if not the sole, reason for this collapse back to a particular event. Back in early 1937, in preparation for an eventual assault on my capital area I had taken the time, in order to protect my right flank, to set up a fortified defensive line to the north-east and east of Guadalajara. As such, I was very unpleasantly surprised to see the Italian CTV offensive magically appear behind my defensive positions just outside the city's walls around March 1937. To counter this event I had to progressively weaken my left flank to repel the repeated Italian onslaughts with the predictable result that Boadilla on my left flank was eventually overrun by the Nationalist thereby opening up the way to Madrid.
Despite pumping in massive reinforcements I could never stem the tidal wave of Nationalist forces that were flowing into the sector, especially with the fact that my air force was inferior, both in quality and quantity, and therefore unable to wrest control of the sky from Franco's air force in this area.
In this regard, shouldn't the Italian CTV units be generated closer to the city of Calatayud?
Overall, I have to say this is an extremely well crafted scenario where great attention was paid to detail. The graphics and sounds used are quite beautiful and the historical texts go a long way to totally immerse the player into the war. Great job!!!
The only qualm I may have is to ask whether the forces in play might be a little too skewed in favor of the Nationalists.
As such, here are some of my observations/comments for the period up to May 1938 (the actual war, of course, lasted till April 1939 when the Republicans finally surrendered):
What's the reasoning behind the generation of the 'Stronghold' units when Republican cities are captured. Is there a historical context for it? I ask because it seems to give them an unfair advantage. By May 1938, I inventoried 201 such units, with 2-3 units generated for each captured Republican cities. Subsequent tests I made demonstrated that it took around five non-veteran 155mm artillery pieces to defeat 2 Stronghold units in a city (which of course rarely if ever only contained just two units). You quickly realize that it would take a massive number of such artillery units to retake Spain. In the end, I was only able to create a total of 55 artillery pieces, of which only 55% were 155mm (being itself the most expensive Republican unit to build), despite using my Supply units for the exclusive use of their production.
By May 1938, the Nationalists had received 62 Legionarii Class submarines. Assuming each unit corresponded to 1 or 2 subs that means between 62 to 124 subs! Did Italy really send that many subs to fight for Franco? This is important as you know because the Republicans are heavily dependent on Russians reinforcements from Odessa whose ships must run the gauntlet of Italian subs.
By May 1938, I inventoried a total of 244 air units having fought, and died, for the Nationalists (versus 127 for the Republicans). They still had 85 surviving units by that month (versus 43 for the Republicans). I'm assuming each air unit is the equivalent of an air squadron (say between 10 to 20 aircraft). That would mean the Axis would have supplied between 2440 to 4880 planes to Franco. Does that sound correct? This is particularly important because the superior quality of the German/Italian models help to dominate the battle field. But if they are receiving more than they actually received during the actual conflict it tends to skewer the odds even more against the Republicans.
This of course was my first attempt at your scenario and I see in retrospect some things I could have handled better. All the same, I'm curious to know at what difficulty level you would rate your scenario and whether you yourself have been able to win a decisive victory.
That said, this is a great addition to the community! Congratulations!!
Patine
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 11,033
Although I, too, admit I did find the Strongholds and all the swarms of Nationalist planes did make things VERY difficult (nay, impossible for me at many times), and I do also wonder how historical those numbers are, I can, perhaps, understand the subs as, since the supplies come straight from Odessa, one COULD say the small ocean area on the map abstractly represents crossing the whole Mediterranean, where Italy could be at liberty to literally lay a huge gauntlet of them. All in all, this is still a VERY challenging scenario reminiscent of such classics as Red Front and more recent ones like Frederick the Great, as just two examples of many off the top of my head.
Thanks you for your honest and constructive feedback Tootall. I really appreciate it. I'm glad you are enjoying it as I did put a lot of time, thought and effort into making it.
It is supposed to be very challenging and it looks like I have succeed in that regard. In the back of my mind I'm always thinking 'What would Agricola have done' and that is one of the reasons for it being so tough. As I said in a previous post, I always enjoy the scenarios that take me several attempts to conquer, over a walk through against a weak AI opponent. In nearly all of my favourite scenarios (FTG, OMG, Dainichi Sekai, Germanicus etc.) I had to go back to the drawing board more than once to figure out a successful strategy. I wanted SCW to have that same quality and I think I have achieved that.
With regards to the large map and number of units. I made the decision to make the majority of reinforcements event based and eliminate rush buying and most city improvements. This allows the player to focus on fighting the war without the need to spend half an hour every turn micromanaging every city to maximise their war effort. There needs to be some time spent ensuring the science rate stays high enough to keep the flow of Soviet aid coming in at a steady rate, but this should not take up a massive amount of time.
Initially this scenario was intended to be a two player hotseat game and the reinforcement numbers were much more realistic and evenly matched. I had listed the total numbers of artillery, tanks, aircraft and other troops each side received and represented this in the game. However, when it came to the single player version it was clear that a roughly equal number of troops for each side would hugely favour the human player who would be able to handle his resources with much more efficiency, focus attacks and generally avoid using the AI's wasteful and unfocused offensive tactics. This meant a significant increase to the AI's numbers to compensate. The Strongholds were put in place to stop the Republican Militia units from quickly retaking lightly held Nationalist cities and generally stiffen the AI's defence as it often tries to hold cities with very weak garrisons. If the AI was more efficient I would reduce its numbers. I used some artistic license to prop up the AI.
I think your strategy is sound. Hold out for as long as possible in the North as it gives you time to organize and strengthen your other defensive lines. Once the North falls the full force of the Nationalists can be focused on Madrid and Catalonia. Bilbao can be a tough nut to crack, especially if it is supplied with fighter cover. I would recommend putting a lot of resources into keeping your lines of communication with Madrid open and send sufficiently strong reinforcements to that front to hold out at all costs. It is a meat-grinder for the Nationalists and if you ensure your troops fight in the outlying towns and use Madrid to rest and refit it should be possible to hold out. If you lose Madrid the war is effectively over! Without giving away too much, for me Aragon is the key battleground where the war can be won or lost. The trick is judging how many resources to allocate to defence and how many you can spare for an offensive to really link Catalonia to Madrid. Too cautious and you are fighting a battle of attrition you will ultimately lose. Too aggressive and you will burn through your offensive troops quickly and end up back to square one. In many ways the Spanish Civil War still had more in common with the battles of WWI than the fast moving Blitzkreig, especially on the Republican side.
It is supposed to be very challenging and it looks like I have succeed in that regard. In the back of my mind I'm always thinking 'What would Agricola have done' and that is one of the reasons for it being so tough. As I said in a previous post, I always enjoy the scenarios that take me several attempts to conquer, over a walk through against a weak AI opponent. In nearly all of my favourite scenarios (FTG, OMG, Dainichi Sekai, Germanicus etc.) I had to go back to the drawing board more than once to figure out a successful strategy. I wanted SCW to have that same quality and I think I have achieved that.
With regards to the large map and number of units. I made the decision to make the majority of reinforcements event based and eliminate rush buying and most city improvements. This allows the player to focus on fighting the war without the need to spend half an hour every turn micromanaging every city to maximise their war effort. There needs to be some time spent ensuring the science rate stays high enough to keep the flow of Soviet aid coming in at a steady rate, but this should not take up a massive amount of time.
Initially this scenario was intended to be a two player hotseat game and the reinforcement numbers were much more realistic and evenly matched. I had listed the total numbers of artillery, tanks, aircraft and other troops each side received and represented this in the game. However, when it came to the single player version it was clear that a roughly equal number of troops for each side would hugely favour the human player who would be able to handle his resources with much more efficiency, focus attacks and generally avoid using the AI's wasteful and unfocused offensive tactics. This meant a significant increase to the AI's numbers to compensate. The Strongholds were put in place to stop the Republican Militia units from quickly retaking lightly held Nationalist cities and generally stiffen the AI's defence as it often tries to hold cities with very weak garrisons. If the AI was more efficient I would reduce its numbers. I used some artistic license to prop up the AI.
I think your strategy is sound. Hold out for as long as possible in the North as it gives you time to organize and strengthen your other defensive lines. Once the North falls the full force of the Nationalists can be focused on Madrid and Catalonia. Bilbao can be a tough nut to crack, especially if it is supplied with fighter cover. I would recommend putting a lot of resources into keeping your lines of communication with Madrid open and send sufficiently strong reinforcements to that front to hold out at all costs. It is a meat-grinder for the Nationalists and if you ensure your troops fight in the outlying towns and use Madrid to rest and refit it should be possible to hold out. If you lose Madrid the war is effectively over! Without giving away too much, for me Aragon is the key battleground where the war can be won or lost. The trick is judging how many resources to allocate to defence and how many you can spare for an offensive to really link Catalonia to Madrid. Too cautious and you are fighting a battle of attrition you will ultimately lose. Too aggressive and you will burn through your offensive troops quickly and end up back to square one. In many ways the Spanish Civil War still had more in common with the battles of WWI than the fast moving Blitzkreig, especially on the Republican side.
Thanks Patine had not noticed. 
gapetit
King
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2010
- Messages
- 798
I do not know if it is, but I can not open the TOTPP and scenario gives me an error of events: Error "-3" in module "12" data: 19 7. And if I go without evens, soon also I expel me (what does not happen to me adapted for TOTPP by Catfish). TOTPP need an application? This is related to the error events? There are only two applications that I can not work: TOTPP and CivSprite ... Do you have any relationship? 
techumseh
Deity
I suspect it is a missing comma or something in your Rules Txt. file.
gapetit
King
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2010
- Messages
- 798
The problem of ToTPP access is easily solved: in properties TOTLauncher I scored in compatibility mode for Windows 95 to run and can already be accessed. But it does not recognize the version of civ2exe.
Yes Tecumseh, in principle, that error associated with going when there is some error in rules, but if I remove evens let me in and not get the error. And why it happens only to me?
Yes Tecumseh, in principle, that error associated with going when there is some error in rules, but if I remove evens let me in and not get the error. And why it happens only to me?
tootall_2012
King
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2012
- Messages
- 918
Just edited post #185 as I realise I was answering Patine instead of Tootall! Not that I don't appreciate Pats feedback too
I suspected that you were referring to my review thread but thanks for clarifying it. This is a very challenging scenario indeed and your feedback has given me some ideas about how better to manage my forces next time.
I'm still curious to know what size do each air and naval unit represent, i.e. are the air units the equivalent of squadrons?
For now, I'm going back to my project. I need to try and figure out my pollution problem and see if I can resolve it.
gapetit
King
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2010
- Messages
- 798
Hello, following the instructions of tootall_2012, I managed to successfully install patch TOTPP:
Congratulations McMonkey, the scenario looks great, and the patch into operation no incidence on evens out. I hope this weekend to start playing. As I'm quite obsessive with graphics, I modified something of Units, I add in case you are interested, and I've already begun to Improvements-Icons, if you want I will send too.
Thank you very much for your effort McMonkey, I think this scenario will enter through the front door of the best scenarios for Civ-2.
If someone has problems with the installation I can upload the patch civ2.exe.
Congratulations McMonkey, the scenario looks great, and the patch into operation no incidence on evens out. I hope this weekend to start playing. As I'm quite obsessive with graphics, I modified something of Units, I add in case you are interested, and I've already begun to Improvements-Icons, if you want I will send too.
Thank you very much for your effort McMonkey, I think this scenario will enter through the front door of the best scenarios for Civ-2.
That would be great Petit. I wasn't that happy with my attempt at the Popular Front and Catalonian flags, or the horse for the Legion Cavalry unit so I will add them into any updated version. I hope you enjoy playing SCW. I need to get on with making a page on the Wiki. I also need to send an e-mail to Pablostuka to let him know it is finished.
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