I keep messing my science up

(Standard, Prince/King)

I don't know what goes wrong. I can keep up a good science rate at the early game during classical era, getting the NC up at around turn 90 and things go smoothly.

I usually run tradition 4-5 cities depending on locations.

Around late Industrial the science starts to slow down a little, and when I hit Atomic Era and get those Research Labs up I STILL end up being at Year 1980 and no battleships even.

And I've seen people pull off science victories at year 1918 sending that rocket.

There is something I'm missing here.

To maximize science rate:

1. NC ASAP

2. Prioritize techs unlocking science buildings

3. Run all science specialists

4. The first few Great Scientists should form Academies. (Bulbing is based on last X turns of science; since an Academy increases base science, that means that each future GS bulbed produce more beakers than if you didn't)

5. Complete Rationalism

6. If coastal use 2 or 3 food cargo ships to help the capital grow.

7. Strategic use of RAs. (Make them to opponent in the same era to minimize cost) [Signing more useful at higher difficulty levels]

Above is as any civ; Babylon & Korea doing the above can win 20+ turns earlier than anyone else. (If generic civ wins in 1918; Babylon / Korea doing the same thing with the same start would win in the 1890s.)

At the difficulty levels stated, chances are your not going to be able to get much out of the science bonuses from trade routes; but at higher levels it's something to consider.

joncnunn said:

To maximize science rate:

1. NC ASAP

2. Prioritize techs unlocking science buildings

3. Run all science specialists

4. The first few Great Scientists should form Academies. (Bulbing is based on last X turns of science; since an Academy increases base science, that means that each future GS bulbed produce more beakers than if you didn't)

5. Complete Rationalism

6. If coastal use 2 or 3 food cargo ships to help the capital grow.

7. Strategic use of RAs. (Make them to opponent in the same era to minimize cost) [Signing more useful at higher difficulty levels]

Above is as any civ; Babylon & Korea doing the above can win 20+ turns earlier than anyone else. (If generic civ wins in 1918; Babylon / Korea doing the same thing with the same start would win in the 1890s.)

At the difficulty levels stated, chances are your not going to be able to get much out of the science bonuses from trade routes; but at higher levels it's something to consider.

Click to expand...

1. Check

2. Check (Went for Jesuit Education and had faith buying power)

3. Must've overlooked this.

4. This explains it, I kept getting engineers due to Stonehenge+Pyramids. I usually stop planting my GS after Public Schools are up

5. I have bad habit of not doing this, only go for Secularsm

6. Check. Growth is good.

7. Forgot this entirely. Bummer

Thanks a lot, mate. Weirdly enough, I almost had an easier time keeping up on Emperor, although Korea was my neighbour and I leeched science out of him via trade routes and spies. Then I killed him.

I must work some more on my diplomacy skills.

joncnunn said:

To maximize science rate:
...5. Complete Rationalism...

Click to expand...

You don't need to complete Rationalism asap, all you need is to unlock 'Secularism' asap. Having unlocked 'Free Thought' will give you a %17 boost to universities as well. Having said that the ability to buy great scientist with faith is always handy....

The key to science is growth, and more growth, and this means sending food trade routes. I find the earlier the better, and cargo ships over caravans.

I like to beeline Stealth once I finish Internet(using Oxford and Rationalism finisher). To do this I buy as many great scientists as possible and hit science focus in all cities. 8 turns later I bulb and hey presto usually I'm on Stealth.....

But completing Rationalism is a requirement to buy GSes. Unless you have Glory of God Reformation. And the extra RA boost might just help a bit.

I've always been a little slower in the atomic/information era when I play small. However, I progress much faster in science late-game when I've invested in a few more cities. You might try it--it always works for me. Rushing research labs in 7+ cities is way stronger than 5 in my experience, each easily overcomes the tiny 3-5% science penalty if you can start them early. The key to powerful science is population and more cities = more population.

This usually outperforms a small NC approach for me. I always forget about the NC and just focus on happiness and settling early game--Building it later. Works for me. I've found that I can easily steal up the difference even if I get a little farther behind as constabularies don't come until later. I've heard of some master players using the small approach to finish by turn 300 or so, so it's possible that with the small approach and Babylon/Korea you could do better than large, however, this has always worked fine for me against the AI on all difficulty levels.

This puts me in victory somewhere between 1890-1910 on immortal depending on the strength of the AI and how many RA's I can form. Immortal you will finish faster too due to the AI being better at science and thus RA's being more powerful. Stealing Porcelain Tower makes a great difference. Rush it if you need too. And in my experience, I'm bulbing my way through half of the information techs if I play it right due to all those Research Lab cities producing and the hubble boost.

Also, build/tech order can shave 15-20 turns off the victory time in the end. The parts are expensive so timing all the buildings and having your cities ready and buying spaceship factories can really make a difference. My order is to shoot straight for hubble. Have an engineer ready. Rush it. Double-bulb to get the tech for spaceship factories and boosters, have saved up loads of money and buy spaceship factories in all the cities that I select to immediately start building the boosters/cockpit. Turn all other cities on research. Buy some more scientists once birth rates start to flag if I have faith. Go for nanotechnology. Turn a 5th city on parts. Tech for particle physics as fast as possible. If the timing right on world congress building the international space station in this downtime is a great choice--usually better than having all your extra cities on research as it only helps a little bit in my experience. I'm usually order with wide, so I'll have my buying spaceship parts with engineers ready. Probably hurry one of the going ones to leave the parts to my 4 best. Then wait it out. Save one last engineer for the last part with particle physics and hurry immediately. Assemble and shoot. One game I was into the information era and launched like 20 turns later. Despite having a long list of techs on the top of the tree I'd been ignoring. You get a huge stream of scientists with a large empire about this time.

Here's an example of the results of a wide game and the overwhelming science output difference. I won 1906 but kept playing just to see how powerful my indian empire could become emphasizing growth in my 25 cities. Most of my cities have topped 20-pop at this point, are running every specialist, and I turned on research to add a little extra though this ended up a minor effect compared to the specialists. Turning half your empire on research through the information era is a great way to shave a few extra turns off btw. Every city that is unsuitable for building parts should be cranking out all the science possible.

This game was kinda for perks. I won years ago, but my empire was so far from its full potential I wanted to see how good it could get when all cities were working all their useable tiles and had filled all specialist slots, with a few lagging cities, this is the result. I'm also supporting the world's top military at the same time. Big would always be better if the civ games didn't end so quick. *sigh* I didn't check but I've got somewhere around 20 future techs at this point--probably more actually. With this rate they come every 2 turns.

If you kess up in science. ..don't worry about it... try to make as much as you can however. You can also use spies to try to steal technologies that your civilization doesn't have. Make sure you move your spies after a steal so that they won't end up as kias...

Alright, so I went for a Germany run, King, tiny, opponents were India Zulu and Poland. I got 4 cities up, beelined Universities and bought them, established routes with three neighbouring CSes for future Hanse exploit. It went pretty well until Poland attacked, but he yielded a city to me through a peace deal, which I would sell back to him later (and avoid warmonger penalty) for good money.

The problem was, the Zulu went mad. They killed Poland off, took my city I got from the Polish, and killed India before my RA was done with them. I had to hold off my science to build Infantry, Fighters and Panzers to hold off his mass troops, but eventually resurrected Poland and got a 1969 Science Victory. I guess that turned out well.

danaphanous said:

Here's an example of the results of a wide game and the overwhelming science output difference. I won 1906 but kept playing just to see how powerful my indian empire could become emphasizing growth in my 25 cities. Most of my cities have topped 20-pop at this point, are running every specialist, and I turned on research to add a little extra though this ended up a minor effect compared to the specialists. Turning half your empire on research through the information era is a great way to shave a few extra turns off btw. Every city that is unsuitable for building parts should be cranking out all the science possible.

Click to expand...

What were the settings on this map? Map type, size, and number of civs?

To me it doesn't look easy to get 25 well-developed cities unless the map was both large and had less than the normal number of civs. Then again, it's true that some of your cities are spaced closer to each other than I would normally do, but that only makes it even more surprising that all the cities managed to reach such high populations.

LoneRebel said:

What were the settings on this map? Map type, size, and number of civs?

To me it doesn't look easy to get 25 well-developed cities unless the map was both large and had less than the normal number of civs. Then again, it's true that some of your cities are spaced closer to each other than I would normally do, but that only makes it even more surprising that all the cities managed to reach such high populations.

Click to expand...

Well, it's Religious India with Order so that's why it was easy to get that much pop, I could've gotten twice as much as still been flush on happiness, they tend to be amazing at wide-tall strategies. With the happiness and gold, just put the cities on emphasize growth and buy some aqueducts to get started.

This is an extreme example, but even on smaller maps I'd recommend trying to get 7-10 cities. It really helps me out.

Settings:

Huge Map
Emperor
Reduced CS numbers and I think I dropped civ numbers to 10 or 11 so there was a little more space. There's only 7 and soon to be only 5 left now due to the constant warring.

Not all of that territory was mine initially, when I won I had 15 cities. After winning I felt free to expand into the remaining unclaimed islands and I took over America with the Dutch. It actually doesn't take long to grow cities, you just need to be willing to sacrifice production for growth for a while and buy a few things to help them. It took about 70 turns for those island cities to start topping 20-pop so that gives you an idea how fast you can develop them if you divert trade routes, buy aqueducts...Also, open ocean tends to keep up a good growth rate and I was running these tiles until I got them over 20-pop and switched over to specialists to allow me to get enough pop to run all the specialists in coastal cities, otherwise you will stall out on coastal cities. The internal cities I had loads of farms--you can always replace them later once your city gets enough pop to run all the tiles and specialists. This is the point I shoot for entering the information era.

Well, I managed a kinda good Science Victory as Austria, Small, Emperor on Turn 312 Year 1884.

Only managed to get a handful of RA's, but I had Porcelain and Finished Rationalism when the first one finished, coupled with an early Science Funding and Gardenized cities with Coffee Houses and Pisa Tower.

I got lucky and started with a lot of good plains, salt and freaking FoY to the west along with being moderately isolated. Polynesia was my best friend and he kept Greece busy.

and Temple of Artemis (in the second city even!)... Hanging Gardens... and Petra in 3rd city... Yeah, I had this served on a silver platter. Good thing I neglected the great library. It's dead to me. though my NC got up rather late; around Turn 125 or so, but I had 4 cities down.

Then again, with a dream setup like that any normal person would've been able to win it before turn 220...

Doktor Vic Tim said:

I had to hold off my science to build Infantry, Fighters and Panzers to hold off his mass troops, but eventually resurrected Poland and got a 1969 Science Victory. I guess that turned out well.

Click to expand...

This is still a crazy result.

Earlier you said you probably missed focusing on science specialists. It really is the only thing that could be causing these dramatic late era delays if you aren't expanding (inflating tech costs).

Micromanage your specialists in every city. Always have manual specialist control checked. Staff all science specialist slots always if you are going for a tall science victory. This is not just to improve Great Scientist output, it's to keep bpt as high as it should be. A handful of engineer / merchant specialists can even make a dramatic jump in beakers by late game, though jungle TPs are better.

But maybe you would be better off, anyway, with changing things up and trying some wide/liberty games. Stop focusing on optimal science and just read the threads with players who use and recommend liberty. Wide/Order empires will never stall in science on late eras. Wide empires are bad for sub-turn-300 wins, because they get a slower start, but much stronger overall in science after turn 250, which makes wins in the turn 300-360 range much more secure.

I play a lot of games with a very low science focus, adopting Rationalism late or skipping it altogether. Or I play wide (6 or 7 city founded) with conquest after turn 200 which only slows tech down overall, but still can hit 300-320 SV on an order game. Point being there's much less need for strict optimal play compared to a tall/tradition game. Hone your liberty starts and you won't have end game troubles.

Crazy good or crazy bad? In my earlier post I managed to beat SV with Austria 1884 Turn 312 (Could've done it faster since I messed up and researched Internet and Globalization), but I had a lot of things going my way.

Wide/Order games can be quite fun and exciting, but I'm often turned off by the science and culture penalty. As am I with Diplomatic penalty as well. This changes, however, the larger the map becomes. So far it's mostly standard and small; trying out harder difficulties and harder AIs tend to run away on huge maps.

If I do play a Large or Huge map, I opt for wider empires. This is because the penalty cost is lower on Large and Huge maps. It was a long time I played a huge map, though. I could go with possibly Arabia, Carthage or Russia.

Forgot to add work your science slots asap so you can start generating great scientists. The quicker you can be the bpt leader the quicker you become a viable RA target resulting(sometimes) in many DOFs. With these DOFs(except with Dido and Augustus) you have some breathing room so all you can do is focus on food whilst only having Research in your build queue. The industrial era will soon come.....

when you hit research labs seems to be the most critical point to me, the rest in kinda fluid and relative. That and the start of the industrial really start accelerating things and you get out of the "dead" periods during the medieval and renaissance eras. I guess a war around this point could slow things down considerably if it meant you weren't building public schools and research labs.

Also, research agreements and rationalism. I've had games where I ignored microing science specialists and I still finished real early, so I don't think it's the main issue. Default settings your governors will run some of them anyway usually as soon as the city gets large enough. It's a mystery to me about your really long game though, as even on leisurely games where I have not been as purposeful about tech order or timing I finish < 1920. However, I always take a similar path entering the industrial era and build factories quickly to open ideologies so this might be the difference. How quickly do you get your ideology open? It makes a significant difference too.

GhostSalsa said:

This is still a crazy result.

Earlier you said you probably missed focusing on science specialists. It really is the only thing that could be causing these dramatic late era delays if you aren't expanding (inflating tech costs).

Micromanage your specialists in every city. Always have manual specialist control checked. Staff all science specialist slots always if you are going for a tall science victory. This is not just to improve Great Scientist output, it's to keep bpt as high as it should be. A handful of engineer / merchant specialists can even make a dramatic jump in beakers by late game, though jungle TPs are better.

But maybe you would be better off, anyway, with changing things up and trying some wide/liberty games. Stop focusing on optimal science and just read the threads with players who use and recommend liberty. Wide/Order empires will never stall in science on late eras. Wide empires are bad for sub-turn-300 wins, because they get a slower start, but much stronger overall in science after turn 250, which makes wins in the turn 300-360 range much more secure.

I play a lot of games with a very low science focus, adopting Rationalism late or skipping it altogether. Or I play wide (6 or 7 city founded) with conquest after turn 200 which only slows tech down overall, but still can hit 300-320 SV on an order game. Point being there's much less need for strict optimal play compared to a tall/tradition game. Hone your liberty starts and you won't have end game troubles.

Click to expand...

Well, I tried to do what you told me, going with a wide empire. Went with Rome, Small, Standard, Emperor. Things seem to be going fast so far, but not as fast as I expected.

I bribed genghis to attack a neighbouring city states and got everyone to hate him. Conquered him and the city state, liberated the city state and most other civs seem alright with this.

Judging by this save I will be trying to post, did I goof up or will things fall into place eventually?

Actually, scratch that.

Never suggest wide to me ever again.

It sucks.

I don't care.

I am not the AI who can get 50 population on every city on wide and have happiness.

...let's just say your empire is more than suboptimal.

- Your food production is horrible. You let the AI do things, with "Standard"-Settings - of course that's not going to work. Manage them yourself, focus on food, so cities can grow. And you're choosing the wrong improvements: For example, you built lumber mills on a river in Neapolis - you should ALMOST ALWAYS build farms when there's fresh water - because of Civil Service. Also, you have to few workers and you're using them on the wrong tiles.
- Arrentium is useless. Founding a city just to... well, have a city is not what you do when going wide.
- Your production is really... strange? Ravenna is building a bank when it doesn't even have a Colosseum... no Aqueduct either.
- You're not using all your trade routes... they should be top priority.
- You're running Science Specialists in a 7 pop City... of course it won't grow if you do that.
- You've got a mercantile city state right next to you, it has 2 quests of which one can be done really easily and the other quest (discover a neutral wonder) could be done if you were actually exploring the world. It's even got furs, a luxury that you don't have yet AND that is asked for by your capital for WLTKD.
- Don't know what you've done with all your faith, but you've only got 2 pagodas.
- Why did you go Piety?

...etc.

Argh, I guess I did mess up that. I mostly favour tall empires, especially after BNW. Money was often a problem and I suffered a deficit for an extended amount of time at the beginning. I thought I could have a good religion game, thus I chose Piety, but hindsight told me Patronage would've been far better.

And conquering Genghis wasn't that good of an idea, since after that save file everyone started hating me and mass DoWs happened. Might just start over and plan better next time. After all I did get lucky with Mt Kilimanjaro.

And next time I'll try to play my neighbour into attacking more than one city state, and then DoW him to liberate the city states and the city states only. Then I should forge a friendship with everyone else with the "Denounced same leader" modifier.

Alright, take 2.

I did as you told and made all river tiles farms, got the NC up before turn 100 (Amazingly got Pottery on Turn 2), fired up granaries and aqueducts in the first 3 cities. And I'm running all the trade routes.

The problem I face is that it was impossible for me to settle a city on the East coast of my area, since City States were in the way.

Then Mayans started settling a city 3 tiles where my northernmost city is, and war was inevitable. That city had to burn. I've established good alliances with City states in my vicinity, so getting a good hold on the WC should work. I got a religion, Tithe, Pagodas, Peace Gardens and Religious Texts. I'm firing up Pagodas and Gardens as much as I can, so 3 out of 4 of the cities have access to fresh water.

The current save is also at war with Pacal, and I can take the capital, but I am strongly against it. I already have enough warmonger penalty for taking his other city, and I couldn't get him to attack any city states.

The sad thing is that I only have 4 cities. That's not much of a wide empire, really... I did luck out with Temple of Artemis again, and Pyramids. Although I stole a worker prior to that. I try to make the most use out of Rome's UA and fill my capital with buildings. But as it stands now, I might as well have chosen Tradition and then gone Order.

Wide empires are hard. I also have separate save file on turn 2, but I haven't exploited it,