The Dutch: Useless?

nokmirt · Jun 22, 2012

mabalogna said:
The Polder turns Marshes into 4 food tiles, and flood plains into 5 food tiles once you research Guilds. this is actually better then any farm on a non-river tile (marshes) and a civil service farm on a flood plain. The later boost that comes from Economics essentially gives the polder the effects of a trade post with an extra production. In the end the Polder is a very high yield tile improvement that becomes available in the medieval era, and matures in the renaissance. It essentially turns a rather useless tile (marshes) into a very powerful one that will provide whatever city works it with a really well timed mid-game boost to city growth, just as happiness buildings/resources come available and allow you to grow a wide empire past 6-8 pop

That's exactly right. The problem with my Dutch empire is the fact that I can only build polders near three cities. One of those on only one tile. That is probably a good thing to make sure it is not overpowered. Of course, I could have just had bad luck with map generation.

Cytokinesis · Jun 22, 2012

I've used the Dutch a a few games with decent success. I think they are quite good even without their UU which puts them into a really strong place. Being able to sell away all your luxuries early game and still expand is very strong. The Polder is a very very good tile improvement. Unfortunately the few games I've played I haven't been able to use them very much. If you would be lucky enough to find a swamp or flood plains filled area that city would make you a lot of gold and science.

Brichals · Jun 22, 2012

Just started a game as Dutch. Got a floodplain start with tons of plantation resources. With Polders this is going to get insane (I just got the base Polders, not economics ones yet). These Polders are ridiculously good. Unfortunately I'm on an island but I did manage to sell my single copy resources. Dutch are a strong Civ for sure.

You want low grassy/marshy lands for the Dutch, 1 or 2 polders per city will allow you to grow fast and you can trading post all grasslands. By Economics you will be rolling in money.

RealHuhn · Jun 22, 2012

Why do so many people think that netherlands is a weak civ?
This isn't the first thread about it and I'm always baffled when I see someone claiming they're useless.

Do you guys play on low difficulties and the AI doesn't have enough money to trade? Do you never trade resources for money? Don't you build enough workers to hook up your luxuries? Do you sit on your gold without buying anything?

I don't understand. xD

nokmirt · Jun 22, 2012

RealHuhn said:
Why do so many people think that netherlands is a weak civ?
This isn't the first thread about it and I'm always baffled when I see someone claiming they're useless.

Do you guys play on low difficulties and the AI doesn't have enough money to trade? Do you never trade resources for money? Don't you build enough workers to hook up your luxuries? Do you sit on your gold without buying anything?

I don't understand. xD

Believe me they are not useless. And even on King in my game the AI has money to trade. This many times was not the case in Vanilla. We I go back to emperor next game the AIs will be super rich.

Altisma · Jun 22, 2012

nokmirt said:
Believe me they are not useless. And even on King in my game the AI has money to trade. This many times was not the case in Vanilla. We I go back to emperor next game the AIs will be super rich.

They are useless in multiplayer because players don't need to buy happiness resources like the AI does.

nokmirt · Jun 22, 2012

plokoon9619 said:
They are useless in multiplayer because players don't need to buy happiness resources like the AI does.

Really, then build Polders and grow your cities like crazy. Use Sea Beggars, they have to account for something. I am sure there are good and bad things about all civs in MP. I only play SP, so I wouldn't know.

Eyeoftiger · Jun 22, 2012

Drawmeus said:
Greece wasn't terrible when their military units were actually good in the ancient/classical era. Now they're pretty much outclassed at early rushes by several other civs, and have no benefits at all after the early rush phase of the game. Useless.

I beg to differ...I actually lost a game yesterday (by one turn no less) to Greece as they completed their spaceship one turn ahead of me. They were the dominant power throughout the entire game because of all the city states who kept gifting them units (even unique units which, and I know the devs and mods say it's intentional, I still say its a bug and exploit...Greece shouldn't be attacking me with 10 panzers!).

cccv · Jun 22, 2012

edit: wrong thread >.>

Calouste · Jun 23, 2012

Eyeoftiger said:
I beg to differ...I actually lost a game yesterday (by one turn no less) to Greece as they completed their spaceship one turn ahead of me. They were the dominant power throughout the entire game because of all the city states who kept gifting them units (even unique units which, and I know the devs and mods say it's intentional, I still say its a bug and exploit...Greece shouldn't be attacking me with 10 panzers!).

The city state screen for a military cs tells you which unique unit they can provide, so it is definitely intentional. Brings on an extra element because you would want to be their ally by the time their uu comes around.

pspboy7 · Jun 23, 2012

Dutch civ with lots of polders, hanging gardens, and a maritime CS or two would probably be an insane tall empire.

SathingtonWaltz · Apr 20, 2013

So do you go tall or wide as the Dutch?

iconocast · Apr 20, 2013

u go tall. they actual are better of not settleing near all there lux and they get better happyness from tradeing lux to other civs.

u wanna expand toward the coast if u dont start there and also expand next to floodplains or marsh, polders will make ur citys into mosnters very very easly

Kalmah · Apr 20, 2013

Does building polders on marshes remove the marsh? I'm just wondering for potential unit placement if they'd still receive the combat penalty for being on marsh.

Browd · Apr 20, 2013

Leaves the marsh.

compwiz1202 · Apr 20, 2013

Weird I always thought building a city always removed all features and just left terrain type and resources if applicable.

legowarrior · Apr 20, 2013

I've always gone wide, and relied on the traded luxuries to keep me out of trouble. I order to get the most of this ability, you need to give away luxuries, but giving away luxuries might also keep neighbors happy. Also, going wide increases your chances of benefiting from Polders.

Zezima · Apr 20, 2013

legowarrior said:
I've always gone wide, and relied on the traded luxuries to keep me out of trouble. I order to get the most of this ability, you need to give away luxuries, but giving away luxuries might also keep neighbors happy. Also, going wide increases your chances of benefiting from Polders.

You don't have to worry about keeping neighbors happy in SP, the AI already has plenty of happiness from its bonuses, an extra 4 isn't going to make much difference.

I also tend to play very wide when I play the Dutch. The UA lends itself to acquiring additional happiness (if you choose to trade for luxes instead of gold) which can sustain larger empires. Combined with polders, if you can manage to obtain some social policies or wonders to offset all the unhappiness, the Dutch are one of the few civs that support both a tall and wide empire, which makes them really powerful, IMO.

Not much has been said about the Sea Beggar, but it is probably my second favorite naval UU (nothing beats the SotL). Starts with ridiculous promotions and allows you to leech even more gold from attacking cities. Sure, you'll take damage since it is a close combat ship, but it starts with supply(?) which allows you to heal outside your territory and continue the assault.

Crafty Bison · Apr 20, 2013

Ya what the UA does best is allow you to REX better than anyone except Vanilla France unless you don't meet trade partners that early. With that in mind, you can expand early (probably with liberty) and occupy good sites, focusing on good polder areas. If you want, you can then settle into growth with the aid of polders. For this reason, I actually quite like them for a 4-6 city culture game which does liberty before tradition. A diplomatic or even scientific victory is also possible this way, though focus on culture to get through the policies is required. Alternatively, you could just use that early REX ability to just take tradition, buy the settlers and go for a classic tall game with a great start. Alternatively again, you could go into proper ICS to get as many polders as possbile so your cities can run more production tiles/specialists. Conclusion: very versatile civ.

Unresolved · Apr 20, 2013

The Dutch are a pretty good civ. Their UA is oriented around the early game expansion. It loses most of its effect by mid-game, but its effect on the first 100 turns is amazing. And the first 100 turns are arguably the most important ones of the game. Polders are great if you have the terrain for them. I don't really like Sea Beggars because I rarely make a navy on pangaea maps.

The Dutch: Useless?

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