Jungle starts are a death sentence

Even for civs that have UA oriented towards jungle starts, I can never manage to produce enough science or production and never manage to catch up. Part of the problem is that you have to have Iron Working to cut jungles down, and when you only have +11 science, that takes awhile.

Or do I just suck? How do you guys deal with jungle starts?

I do think that Jungle starts are difficult, because of the fact that they aren't as productive (And chopping them gives no boost like choping a forest does).

So it is challenging, which makes civs like Brazil extremly difficult to take off.

Liberty is often the better choice in those situations. The +1 hammer and small bonus to buildings does make a difference when all your hills are covered in jungle, and you can grab a great scientist and plant it to compensate for a later National College (I typically put off NC in those starts until I pick up a few more ancient era techs and clear the land a bit).

Afaik. you don't need Iron Working to cut down Jungles, only Bronze Working.

But yes, Jungle starts are very tricky. You will normally want to cut down jungles along rivers to make farms (if no grassland tiles are available) and/or cut down jungles on hills to make mines (if no naked hills/forests are present). I try to make flatland jungles that are not by river stay, in order to get the science bonus once I get to Education and get Universities.

Imo. it doesn't help jungle starts that the jungle pantheon only gives culture from jungle tiles, unlike the other "bad tile" pantheons, that give faith (desert/tundra).

Hey, I actually really like that pantheon. Great when you are trying to split policy trees yet keep culture up to get to Rationalism and the like at about the same speed.

Bronze working, yes that's what I meant.

I always take Liberty first, and I usually always pick the God of Craftsmen pantheon and cut down jungles asap.

Even in Brazil's case, I may have enough culture and tourism to be a contendor, but my science is so lacking despite my academys and beakers from jungles after universities, I can never catch up, so all of the great work slot wonders are being taken from me before I can even research the technology.

At what point in the game? Jungle starts are actually decent for growth (compared to say, plains starts, where you need farms to get the +2 food).

I suppose I'm not seeing the connection. Jungle starts are rough because they are usually low hammers and require more techs to get going, but if you are being beat to all the culture techs/wonders, that is more of an issue of science and/or trying to get wonders on Deity (in which case just ignore them or take them by force).

True true true. You want to cut down jungles to get forms up, but the more you cut down, the weaker your science boom is.

If you're Dutch, Brazil, Maya, Siam, or Aztec, you're fine, otherwise you're better off going Liberty and making growth trade routes.

With Dutch and Aztec, you'll have strong growth with your start bias, with Maya you can plant Great People, and with Siam you use city-states to bolster your civilization.

Maybe Babylon is fine with their planting Great Scientists.

In my Brazil game I'm playing there's hardly any jungle near me. There was a desert between me and the nearby jungle (and Arabia, cutting off my supply routes -.-')

Jungles without bananas? gg, go re -)
We played with my friends one game on junle map. Everyone was in ass... USA rocks since his start was on plains.

On the other hand if u have some bananas game changes dramatically. You just go monument->granary->library->settlers->found several cities->education->... Production will be low, but in fact you do not need to product anything except science buildings and caravans for a long time.

Jungle starts are definitely playable. You just shouldn't play them the same way you would, say, a plains start. Your warrior will explore more slowly, so you'll definitely need to go scout first. Without high production, you'll probably need to give up on grabbing early wonders. Use those turns to get extra settlers/granaries out. Once education kicks in, show everyone who's boss.

Well in general jungle starts are the weakest cause of the tech needed. Bronze working is needed to cut jungles down which takes like 5 turns standard to remove in addition to whatever improvement you're going to put on without the hammer bonus a forest would give when chopped. The only improvement you can make on a jungle are trading posts which is in the middle of medieval era and one of the last improvement techs you end up researching. Also, education for the universities which doesn't come until late medieval which is a long way off when first 100 turns could already decide games. On the other hand, jungle starts are probably the strongest of them all in the late-game and it does beat some coastal, tundra and desert starts so its not all that terrible. So in general I would say jungle starts are in the middle of the pack. Honestly, I think desert starts are overrated because if you can't win either desert folklore pantheon or petra then your probably in a worse situation than in the jungle.

It's only slow till you hit education.

Keep the jungle around the capital and work the bananas without a plantation. Maybe clear a hill or two if you need some production. Get a settler out asap and find a good location that will have plenty of hammers. Build your ironworks/wonders in this city and place all great works here.

Use the capital exclusively for great person generation/science/gold. All trade routes through here. Capital doesn't really have any need for much hammers now, but you can send a hammer caravan if required and more food for extra growth. Once you have food coming in from all city states, plus all your food buildings and food caravans, the capital should be big enough and making plenty beakers and gold if you tading posted/brazil camped all the jungle.

It is frustrating to start though. But you end up with a mega capital that is nigh on impossible to attack.

I still think removing jungles should have some bonus like chopping down forests. Maybe give a onetime +6 food or something. It takes the longest, and for 6 more turns all you did was trade a food for a hammer. Even when Universities come into play you're still lacking either food or hammers. The +2 science I usually don't see a point in keeping it unless it's on a banana or you're Brazil.

Though like said already, going Liberty is better. And since AI still almost never build the Pyramid, it becomes very viable to have both in these starts.