Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.5

I`d just kill for some flavour and optional units.. maybe using a special "elite source" that shifts around alot*.

Like, you build some regular infantry, (I wanna use Cam`s Swordsman as infantry cos the Ancient era doesn`t last long enough for me to enjoy the unit as much as I`d like. And I know I could always not-upgrade, but they die fast in the 2nd era), but if a special resource pops in your territory for 20 turns or so, you could build a Greatsword (wee bit higher stats). Of course, we lack the units for such a feature to be available to each civ, I`m just saying it would be nice.

*I`ve played quite a few times for well over 7 hours, and the Ogres never left my territory.. Not exactly how I imagined the Wanderlust feature would work..

@mrtn - a banshee unit wouldn`t need a shadow now would it? Cos I have an idea..
 
Just by going to http://us.games-workshop.com, and compare WHF model lineup with the units in the mod, many are missing. If we want to take the mod to the next level as in more closely finetuned to really match TT, it will require alot of work. Currently this mod is a great fantasy mod with Warhammer flavor (units, buildings, etc...)

The intention of this mod was never to convert army books to civ3, cause Civ3 is a completely different game, with different rules. Your final sentence is borderline insulting ;) Also, Warhammer is much more than the table-top game e.g. WFRP (which at least for me, was a major source), books. All of this has led to a Warhammer Fantasy mod, not a Warhammer Fantasy Battles simulation. The mod is a result of nearly 4 years of work and playtesting from many people, so I believe it is quite 'finetuned'. By now we can really tell what is realistic both in creation and Civ3 game engine/AI.

Don't get me wrong, this is an awesome mod. I played 24/7 for weeks. Ok, maybe not 24/7... But is it an awesome Warhammer Fantasy mod that stay true and retain all/almost all WHF content?

As I said, 1. TT is not all Warhammer content, 2. Civ3 rules are different from TT rules; if you want to a somewhat true TT simulation, there's Mark of Chaos...

Most of the suggestions were not valid, and aaglo pointed out why. The bottom line is, whenever you're making a mod, you have to not only look at the original game, but the game you're modding. It such and such possible? Is the game playable/fun? Does the AI handle it? How to utilize a crucial game feature that's not in the original (e.g. tech tree) etc.

@Stormrage
ATM, the chance for Ogres moving out is 1/40 every turn. Maybe this could be lowered to even 1/20, but you have to take into consideration the time it takes to connect them... so that they don't disappear before you usually finish building that road in the mountains ...
 
The intention of this mod was never to convert army books to civ3, cause Civ3 is a completely different game, with different rules. Your final sentence is borderline insulting ;)

Since it is not coverting Warhammer army units into a mod, and civ3 is a complete different game, it could be called a civ3 fantasy mod with Warhammer flavor. Then again, we could argue all day with the semantics.

Also, Warhammer is much more than the table-top game e.g. WFRP (which at least for me, was a major source), books. All of this has led to a Warhammer Fantasy mod, not a Warhammer Fantasy Battles simulation. The mod is a result of nearly 4 years of work and playtesting from many people, so I believe it is quite 'finetuned'. By now we can really tell what is realistic both in creation and Civ3 game engine/AI.

Never said WTF2.5 is not finetuned on its own. My point is "finetuning to stay truer to TT". Never tried to belittle 4 years of work (don't know how many man hours).

As I said, 1. TT is not all Warhammer content, 2. Civ3 rules are different from TT rules; if you want to a somewhat true TT simulation, there's Mark of Chaos...

I agree, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be a civ3 fantasy mod with units and content matching codex closer.

Most of the suggestions were not valid, and aaglo pointed out why. The bottom line is, whenever you're making a mod, you have to not only look at the original game, but the game you're modding. It such and such possible? Is the game playable/fun? Does the AI handle it? How to utilize a crucial game feature that's not in the original (e.g. tech tree) etc.

I agree, but that doesn't mean you could not include additional units (i.e. dragon prince) just because they are very specialized and you could not find a counterpart in other civs. In another words, same units with different graphics.

All we are saying is that TT battles are finetuned to where each codex army has different tactics and strategies, and we would like WF mod to have that same differences. Granted, there are differences between major flavors of civs in WF2.5 (i.e. chaos ones vs good ones, etc), but there is not much difference between high elves and wood elves or even empires for that matter (units, buildings, penalties, etc) That was the original point Genesis started and I elaborated.

Don't get me wrong. I am not bashing your 4 years of work. It is impressive. This is a just a debate on which direction should WF take. Of course, you guys own the content, we as gamers are just suggesting. Whether you accept inputs is up to you.
 
coupla questions and comments. whats the your faction option mean in game setup? is deamon slayer supposed to say easiest? When i click regicide i get mass regicide, and when i click on elimination i get regicide. I noticed that those options seem to activate the one written below them, but when i clicked mass production above elimination i didn't get an elimination game. I destroyed a lizardman city, but they kept playing, unless i think the elimination mode is something that its not. And does it supposed to not allow you to irrigate in hills or forests, and the deforestation tech wasn't on my tech tree. Otherwise this is the most amazing mod i'v played:worship: :clap: :help:
 
coupla questions and comments. whats the your faction option mean in game setup? is deamon slayer supposed to say easiest? When i click regicide i get mass regicide, and when i click on elimination i get regicide. I noticed that those options seem to activate the one written below them, but when i clicked mass production above elimination i didn't get an elimination game. I destroyed a lizardman city, but they kept playing, unless i think the elimination mode is something that its not. And does it supposed to not allow you to irrigate in hills or forests, and the deforestation tech wasn't on my tech tree. Otherwise this is the most amazing mod i'v played:worship: :clap: :help:

Did you destroy all lizardman cities and settlers?
 
He's talking about Elimination game mode, in which you only need to destroy 1 city (or X cities). Anyway, Chaoslord99, your problem is that most likely, you don't have the latest Conquests patch. All your labels are, as you said, shifted 1 place, which happens when you're trying to play a mod that uses a newer patch than you have installed. Make sure your Conquest version is 1.29f.
 
He's talking about Elimination game mode, in which you only need to destroy 1 city (or X cities). Anyway, Chaoslord99, your problem is that most likely, you don't have the latest Conquests patch. All your labels are, as you said, shifted 1 place, which happens when you're trying to play a mod that uses a newer patch than you have installed. Make sure your Conquest version is 1.29f.

Latest Conquest version is 1.22. Latest PTW is 1.27f.
 
Latest Conquest version is 1.22. Latest PTW is 1.27f.

Yes, it was latest Civ3 that was 1.29f - doesn't really matter. The point is if your labels are shifted it means you're not patched.
 
Great mod guys. I don't know if you know but despots have a military police limit of 2 but the pedia says 1. On differnt note what are the chances of a Republican goverment?
 
Since it is not coverting Warhammer army units into a mod, and civ3 is a complete different game, it could be called a civ3 fantasy mod with Warhammer flavor. Then again, we could argue all day with the semantics.

Calling it this way implies that it's some general kind of fantasy with Warhammer stuff added which it is not (though it started that way, because in early 2004 all there was available was maybe 15 fantasy unit graphics, mostly from LotR or generic). It's based on the Warhammer world, and not just army books, hence the name.

I agree, but that doesn't mean you could not include additional units (i.e. dragon prince) just because they are very specialized and you could not find a counterpart in other civs. In another words, same units with different graphics.

All we are saying is that TT battles are finetuned to where each codex army has different tactics and strategies, and we would like WF mod to have that same differences. Granted, there are differences between major flavors of civs in WF2.5 (i.e. chaos ones vs good ones, etc), but there is not much difference between high elves and wood elves or even empires for that matter (units, buildings, penalties, etc) That was the original point Genesis started and I elaborated.

Don't get me wrong. I am not bashing your 4 years of work. It is impressive. This is a just a debate on which direction should WF take. Of course, you guys own the content, we as gamers are just suggesting. Whether you accept inputs is up to you.

In all that time of development a lot of player input went straight into the mod. But hearing suggestions that ignore civ3 editor/game features and AI capabilities, or treat adding new units like if it was just a matter of will... makes any modder's blood boil ;)

@Kumquat
I don't know if there's a place for Republican government in the mod ;) Anyway, the governments are fixed and unchangeable, since they allow for several civ-specific features and influence the diplomatic relations a bit. You're right about the pedia on Despotism - thanks, it'll be fixed.
 
In all that time of development a lot of player input went straight into the mod. But hearing suggestions that ignore civ3 editor/game features and AI capabilities, or treat adding new units like if it was just a matter of will... makes any modder's blood boil ;)

Yes, there has been alot of player inputs during the development, and this is one of them, :D. If I am not mistaking, this mod is ongoing. So assuming player input is welcome. But why would a modder's blood boil when someone ignores civ3 editor/game features or adding new units like it was a just a matter of will? If someone doesn't know the rules, clarifying is the best way to educate the player. If someone wants an unit to be add, it just requires balancing and finetuning, even the ones that are hard to do if the mod team wants to do it (at will). If debates have been done before, please refresh the newcomers. (To clarify, please refer to earlier posts concerning more balancing such as what needs to justify 300 gold for a dragon prince post, :D, yes we were talking about what justifies a unit)
 
Just curious,you'll never know if you don't ask. Have you ever tried using 3 civ traits instead of 2?
 
Ryuga - One of the basic problems with Civ 3 is that at any time the AI only really understands the role of two land units - an attacker and a defender. In WHFB there is much greater scope for different units to have different roles. If, taking the High Elves as an example, you want to get all the different units in then you have a problem. If you make the reaver cavs attack 6, Silver Helms attack 8 and Dragon Princes attack 10, then the AI will always try to build Dragon Princes. The same goes with units that are flagged as defence. So with the Phoenix Guard - if you have them available at the same time as regular spears then the regulars will never get built. The only way to reliably get the AI to build a mixture of units is to make some units autoproduced by buildings.

This problem with the AI is why the mod has an upgrade chain rather than allowing all units to be used at all times.

Hope that clarifies things a bit. And sorry if I got anything muddled - EmbryoDead and Mrtn have way more experience in mod making than I do.

One small suggestion for the modders - is there a possibility of giving elite unit types fewer hitpoints but greater attack/defence, representing their greater training but fewer numbers. I can't quite remember whether this has a great impact on how likely the AI is to build certain units. I'm thinking that maybe a regular spear with 3HP and def of 4 would be equal in value to the AI as a Phoenix Guard with 2HP and def of 6, though this would change in the Phoenix Guard's favour if the units were veterans. Worth experimenting with?
 
Nice explanation of the Civ 3 engine there Keroro, this way embryodead or I don't have to explain it again and again. (To different posters.) :)
...One small suggestion for the modders - is there a possibility of giving elite unit types fewer hitpoints but greater attack/defence, representing their greater training but fewer numbers. I can't quite remember whether this has a great impact on how likely the AI is to build certain units. I'm thinking that maybe a regular spear with 3HP and def of 4 would be equal in value to the AI as a Phoenix Guard with 2HP and def of 6, though this would change in the Phoenix Guard's favour if the units were veterans. Worth experimenting with?

As to making units with different amount of HPs just change the chance that unit will win combat. The difference between attack 8, 4 HP and attack 7, 5 HP is quite small, this would just be a lot of work for no real gain...

@Kumquat: I haven't, maybe embryodead tried 4 years ago. I see lots of problems though, as we have had problems finding even two traits for some civs (like the Amazons, Ungols).

Oh, and for everyones information, I'm not working on changing the mod. In fact I've hardly touched it since release.
 
As to making units with different amount of HPs just change the chance that unit will win combat. The difference between attack 8, 4 HP and attack 7, 5 HP is quite small, this would just be a lot of work for no real gain...
Difference as in difference to AI's decision to build one of the unit or the probability of winning if two such units are fighting each other, or both reasons?


Oh, and for everyones information, I'm not working on changing the mod. In fact I've hardly touched it since release.
Is WH2.5 final? or you guys are taking a break?
 
The Dragon Princes used to ride actual dragons, maybe we could have those as a replacement for unridden dragons?

it would be nice that the dragon prince could either be buildable at the first tech that allows dragon building (of course, cheaper and lower stats) or produced by a new building which can be built with the first dragon tech or another existing building.
 
Is WH2.5 final? or you guys are taking a break?

Yes, currently we think that WH2.5 is final - save for some patch that might fix some errors in the biq-file
 
Yes, currently we think that WH2.5 is final - save for some patch that might fix some errors in the biq-file

If the current set of WH modders are thinking to stop modding, it would be interesting to see who will carry on the torch.
 
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