mabraham
Deity
Still agree - but we have to remember to unload the galley at the end of T116 once it has run out of movement points. Still sacrificial worker onto the Phill first.
@Thorn: There's another reminder to note for your PPP
SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Still agree - but we have to remember to unload the galley at the end of T116 once it has run out of movement points. Still sacrificial worker onto the Phill first.
@Thorn: There's another reminder to note for your PPP
bcool
Deity
I played out a game attempting this strategy
got a domination win 1515 AD.
The story: after the pyramids and a switch to representation. I started the Parthenon in Paired Clams and traded for a bunch of techs including alphabet and iron working. Whipping several workers into the wonders, decided to build Moai in Fish Hills since Paired Clams was busy with the Parthenon.
-After I got copper I built the Colossus in CC. I avoided trading away metal casting and actually finished the colossus before the Parthenon. ~T195. Parthenon finished later ~T202? Even with whipping OF the Parthenon will take some time. I whipped courthouses in my 8 cities. Teched Music for GA and got a GS for an academy in the capital.
-Got the Great Library and National Epic in the Capital by about the same time courthouses were all done switched to caste system and started the GS pump. Unfortunately I got a low odds GA instead of a GS that I was planning to bulb philosophy to time a GA switch to Bureaucracy, pacifism and a religion ( confu had auto spread to almost all my cities, used the free missionary in the capital when on turn I eventually switched (hoped for spread there didn't happen) ).
Delayed philosophy but probably should have just teched straight out when I didn't get the GS. I think I adopted pacifism a little late. ended up switching to bureaucracy without a GA.
I attempted to steal engineering from Portugal but missed the 85%+ odds. ended up self teching instead. Got the GS to bulb 1 education, 1 printing press, 2 Chemistry. Discovered I could not bulb optics or astronomy (even though I didn't finish Chemistry at first) Had an extra GS that I was saving for astronomy so I went for scientific method after finishing liberalism for steel. Then finished Astronomy. I had a GA about then switched to slavery and whipped out several cannons and galleons. I teched nationalism and switched to nationhood at the end of the GA and began drafting musketeers. This all happened about 1000 AD. (I ended up building the Globe Theater in Fish Hills since CC was busy getting lots of GS and FH could build it faster with the Moai statues (especially with the bonus hammers during a GA. FH is as good a Globe Theater but it got out ~12 straight musketeers before going 1 ever other turn or so. )
I began my conquest aggressively drafting and slowly finished Scientific Method with gold I got with conquest. Went for communism after that timing its research with the building of the Taj Mahal. Switched to state propery for the food bonus and maintenance issues that were becoming significant. I kept almost all the captured cities. Used 2 GS to bulb physics and got airships to help with conquests that were wrapping up. After a probably ill advised biology research I teched replaceable parts and riflery that came online near the end and made war go even smoother. Never really lost a stack of muskets and cannons. The AI only got knights near the end of the conquest, so my muskets and cannons mostly dominated the fights.
I probably could have gotten a conquest win faster than domination since I needed to settle several islands to get the land % requirement for domination. My attempt to get a late Great Artist to end the revolt in my captured cities didn't work. If we go for domination, the last opponent might be better razed and then replaced with settlers. (faster acquisition of the land). I didn't go with conquest since Peter was my war buddy and he had a sizable force, but with rifles I could have smashed his stacks especially with a good timed betrayal.
Some lessons
-domination requires a ton of land, conquest is a valid option I think (depending on the map)
-Apparently you can not bulb optics/astronomy once you have started down the chemistry path (even if you don't finish chemistry)
-Globe theater in FH allows some flexibility especially if we need the capital to produce a ton of GS. (keeps benefits of NE and academy in capital longer)
-Chemisty path for GS instead of astronomy gives us a lot of flexibility. We can get riflery more easily with this path (since we would have to bulb printing press).
Spoiler :
got a domination win 1515 AD.
The story: after the pyramids and a switch to representation. I started the Parthenon in Paired Clams and traded for a bunch of techs including alphabet and iron working. Whipping several workers into the wonders, decided to build Moai in Fish Hills since Paired Clams was busy with the Parthenon.
-After I got copper I built the Colossus in CC. I avoided trading away metal casting and actually finished the colossus before the Parthenon. ~T195. Parthenon finished later ~T202? Even with whipping OF the Parthenon will take some time. I whipped courthouses in my 8 cities. Teched Music for GA and got a GS for an academy in the capital.
-Got the Great Library and National Epic in the Capital by about the same time courthouses were all done switched to caste system and started the GS pump. Unfortunately I got a low odds GA instead of a GS that I was planning to bulb philosophy to time a GA switch to Bureaucracy, pacifism and a religion ( confu had auto spread to almost all my cities, used the free missionary in the capital when on turn I eventually switched (hoped for spread there didn't happen) ).
Delayed philosophy but probably should have just teched straight out when I didn't get the GS. I think I adopted pacifism a little late. ended up switching to bureaucracy without a GA.
I attempted to steal engineering from Portugal but missed the 85%+ odds. ended up self teching instead. Got the GS to bulb 1 education, 1 printing press, 2 Chemistry. Discovered I could not bulb optics or astronomy (even though I didn't finish Chemistry at first) Had an extra GS that I was saving for astronomy so I went for scientific method after finishing liberalism for steel. Then finished Astronomy. I had a GA about then switched to slavery and whipped out several cannons and galleons. I teched nationalism and switched to nationhood at the end of the GA and began drafting musketeers. This all happened about 1000 AD. (I ended up building the Globe Theater in Fish Hills since CC was busy getting lots of GS and FH could build it faster with the Moai statues (especially with the bonus hammers during a GA. FH is as good a Globe Theater but it got out ~12 straight musketeers before going 1 ever other turn or so. )
I began my conquest aggressively drafting and slowly finished Scientific Method with gold I got with conquest. Went for communism after that timing its research with the building of the Taj Mahal. Switched to state propery for the food bonus and maintenance issues that were becoming significant. I kept almost all the captured cities. Used 2 GS to bulb physics and got airships to help with conquests that were wrapping up. After a probably ill advised biology research I teched replaceable parts and riflery that came online near the end and made war go even smoother. Never really lost a stack of muskets and cannons. The AI only got knights near the end of the conquest, so my muskets and cannons mostly dominated the fights.
I probably could have gotten a conquest win faster than domination since I needed to settle several islands to get the land % requirement for domination. My attempt to get a late Great Artist to end the revolt in my captured cities didn't work. If we go for domination, the last opponent might be better razed and then replaced with settlers. (faster acquisition of the land). I didn't go with conquest since Peter was my war buddy and he had a sizable force, but with rifles I could have smashed his stacks especially with a good timed betrayal.
Some lessons
-domination requires a ton of land, conquest is a valid option I think (depending on the map)
-Apparently you can not bulb optics/astronomy once you have started down the chemistry path (even if you don't finish chemistry)
-Globe theater in FH allows some flexibility especially if we need the capital to produce a ton of GS. (keeps benefits of NE and academy in capital longer)
-Chemisty path for GS instead of astronomy gives us a lot of flexibility. We can get riflery more easily with this path (since we would have to bulb printing press).
mabraham
Deity
Yep. See here (also linked by adrianj earlier, I think). Civil Service opens Education, which opens Printing Press. If, by then, we've teched Gunpowder+Eng, then Chemistry is up, then SciMeth, then Physics.
So, if we want to do bulbing on the Astro path, then if we pick up Civil Service, we need to avoid one of Gunpowder and Engineering. Late Astro is fine if we're teching hard. Early Astro is good if we can take out some wonder cities fast.
I'm currently playing an "early Astro, kill Joao for early GLH" game where I traded MC around early. Will report later today.
bcool
Deity
Ah since Chemistry is higher than optics and astronomy on the list you can't do it. I thought it was reverse.
You can bulb part of Astronomy however without finishing it, and then bulb down the chemistry path.
You can bulb part of Astronomy however without finishing it, and then bulb down the chemistry path.
mabraham
Deity
Hmm. While doing my play-through, I ran into the converse problem. If we tech Astronomy before Gunp+Eng, that opens SciMeth. So, to ensure maximum value for limited bulbs, we want to put a single bulb on Astro, Edu, PPr, Chem, SciMeth, Physics. That means avoiding Medi (unless Philo will trade soon after), and avoiding CService until after putting a bulb on Astro.
If we're running Pacificism, then we can probably afford to double-bulb some of those.
Thorn
King
Okay, I'm playing through the test game(s) and I have a question. It looks like the idea was to whip a settler in Clam Chowder at turn 114 after switching from a Forge there (T111?) but I don't really see how the settler can be picked up by the Galley as shown in Ronnie1 post #759 screenshot. 
Note: I can see why playing the test games are so important now.
Note: I can see why playing the test games are so important now.
Ronnie1
Deity
If you whip on T113, I think that was the last/best trial, then the settler is ready to load the galley on T114 1SE of FH which is 1 tile N of where the worker is building the WS. The galley goes as per my screen shot and is at that tile after 1/2 movement on T114.
There are a few things I am not totally clear about however, ... why CC switches to the settler on T109.....why not just grow to size 6 ASAP and switch to the settler at T110?
If we do switch to settler on T109, why waste the CF by not working it in FH for that 1 turn.
I actually am not very clear about the PDF....
Page 2 FH
"Tiles Worked B,PM,GM B,PM,GM,Cit
Tiles Changed -N,-CF,+PM +Cit"
What is "B"? Shouldn't it be "N" for net so we regrow to size 4 for T109? I don't see a reason to starve it.
There are a few things I am not totally clear about however, ... why CC switches to the settler on T109.....why not just grow to size 6 ASAP and switch to the settler at T110?
If we do switch to settler on T109, why waste the CF by not working it in FH for that 1 turn.
I actually am not very clear about the PDF....
Page 2 FH
"Tiles Worked B,PM,GM B,PM,GM,Cit
Tiles Changed -N,-CF,+PM +Cit"
What is "B"? Shouldn't it be "N" for net so we regrow to size 4 for T109? I don't see a reason to starve it.
Thorn
King
For my play tests I have been assuming "B" should be "N".
Ronnie1
Deity
I'm sure it is supposed to be "N" also....I was mostly giving a little crap because I generally suck at keyboarding. We have been so precise on every aspect "except" our keyboarding in this instance.
This is actually the part I am most confused about, "If we do switch to settler on T109, why waste the CF by not working it in FH for that 1 turn?"
I think we should use the food tiles ALL the time, even if it results in a
a little sooner. We have plenty of food, and I think it will allow us to whip a little sooner if we use all the food all the time.
@ Thorn....did you get the galley movement worked out?
This is actually the part I am most confused about, "If we do switch to settler on T109, why waste the CF by not working it in FH for that 1 turn?"
I think we should use the food tiles ALL the time, even if it results in a
a little sooner. We have plenty of food, and I think it will allow us to whip a little sooner if we use all the food all the time.@ Thorn....did you get the galley movement worked out?
Thorn
King
Grifftavian
Emperor
Try it this way & see how it works...
T108
FH = 1-pop whip of WB; post-whip works GMine, PMine & FishNet
CC @ size 4 (Forge); post-whip above works 3 ClamNets & GMine
T109
FH starts Pyramids, grows to size 4, works GMine, PMine, FishNet & 1F/2C coastal
CC (Forge) grows to size 5; works 3 ClamNets, GMine & CornFarm
T110
CC & FH = no change
T111
CC grows to size 6 and adds Settler to top of build queue; works 3 ClamNets, GMine, CornFarm & GForest
FH = no change
T112
CC & FH = no change
T113
CC = 3-pop whip of Settler; works 2 ClamNets & GMine post whip
FH = no change
NOTE: Worker stops building Workshop 1N of SM this turn!
T114
Settler & Worker board Galley 1 SE of FH this turn!
T108
FH = 1-pop whip of WB; post-whip works GMine, PMine & FishNet
CC @ size 4 (Forge); post-whip above works 3 ClamNets & GMine
T109
FH starts Pyramids, grows to size 4, works GMine, PMine, FishNet & 1F/2C coastal
CC (Forge) grows to size 5; works 3 ClamNets, GMine & CornFarm
T110
CC & FH = no change
T111
CC grows to size 6 and adds Settler to top of build queue; works 3 ClamNets, GMine, CornFarm & GForest
FH = no change
T112
CC & FH = no change
T113
CC = 3-pop whip of Settler; works 2 ClamNets & GMine post whip
FH = no change
NOTE: Worker stops building Workshop 1N of SM this turn!
T114
Settler & Worker board Galley 1 SE of FH this turn!
Ronnie1
Deity
bcools plan is better...it gets an "extra" turn on the settler leading to 15 more
overflow back to the forge.The only part of that plan I'm not totally sold on is NOT working the Corn Farm in 1 of the 2 cities every turn.
@ Thorn...you have it right on the movement...the settler is ready to "walk" on T114 and it gets 4 moves on the road so it can reach the galley position on that turn! The galley does NOT need to be in the city for the settler to load, he can walk onto the galley while it is "parked" off shore.
bcool
Deity
B is for fish, N is for Clams I believe
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10322839&postcount=713
Are you using the PDF on this post? It indicates you can should whip the settler on T113 so it should be available to move 4 to load on the galley near FH on T114.
@Ron, the plan uses the Corn Farm for all of Thorn's playset.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10322839&postcount=713
Are you using the PDF on this post? It indicates you can should whip the settler on T113 so it should be available to move 4 to load on the galley near FH on T114.
@Ron, the plan uses the Corn Farm for all of Thorn's playset.
Ronnie1
Deity
Thorn
King
Ah, hadn't thought to actually count out the moves to reach the galley. I just assumed it was too far.
I'm off for another trial. I should have some results to post fairly soon.
Thorn
King
One more quick clarification, do I switch from Forge to Settler in CC on T109 and then whip the Settler at T113? The PDF doesn't show that.
Ronnie1
Deity
The PDF on page 1, says to switch CC build to Settler on T109, switch back to Forge on T110, switch again to settler on T111, and finally whip the settler on T113.
Are you sure you are looking at the right PDF?
mabraham
Deity
It's actually equivalent for production in CC. All the same tiles are worked. Generating the
person a turn earlier is free (because we're building a settler) but makes no profit either. I suppose we should look at the cost of city maintenance too... A city at size 6 pays a little bit more.There are three reasonable schemes for whip cycles, assuming we're happy at size 5:
1) Grow to 5, work settler, 2-whip it. Bleah, horrible.
2) Grow to 6 and immediately work settler (avoiding paying
for the dude), 3-whip it. Nice.3) Grow to 8, costing (say) 3 turns at -2
/turn and 2 more turns at -4/turn, so 14. Switch to settler, 3-whip it and we're still at size 5 working all our tiles. (Hopefully we didn't take 
losses at size 7, either...)However, strategy 3) is right only if our 4th and 5th dudes are working such good tiles that their existence brings in more than 14
profit over the 4-5 turns it takes to re-grow to size 5. Over 5 turns, that means they need to work tiles that pay for their own 2 and then produce at least 3 more . We don't have enough 5- tiles to make this possible.Because we can share tiles, it is better to use 2) and try to keep the whip cycles somewhat "out of phase" with each other and hope that one city's growth can cover the several turns when the other city is at size 3. Unless you whip both cities at about the same turn, you don't drop below 7 population, and that means that the worst-case scenario is you give up a turn or two on some mine. In fact, that's what the current plan does - give up several turns on one Gmine or the other. We could slow down the first settler out of CC by three turns (say), paying 2
/turn for the privilege of whipping down to a size where we don't have to give up a Gmine during T113-115, but getting the settler out three turns early seems to me to produce enough equity to cover the difference.All the food tiles get worked every turn. We occasionally give up a turn or two on one or other Gmine. The "Good tiles worked" row computes a checksum automatically across both spreadsheets of the five food resources and three mines.
Nothing's starving, ever.
If you mouse over improved fish, you will see that it is actually "Fish boats". Long term, I knew I might need to be able to draw a distinction between working Clam Nets, Fish Boats and unimproved fish. The first two produce different amounts of food, so being precise is important. So I set up a nomenclature that wouldn't need to change in future. Sorry for the confusion.
I think we should use the food tiles ALL the time, even if it results in a
Agreed, about working the food all the time in the shared-tile context. The underlying philosophy of bc's approach is to regrow fast, switch and whip maximal overflow
-things onto wonders, and not to worry about accumulating . At about T180 we'll have to stop whipping and control regrowth to our long-term size (11 in CC) so that we maximize outcomes then, but there's plenty of time for whip- to decay. AI-trading for gold/gems/silver resources will give us a free run, also. Or there's that gold resource out to the east.
Thorn
King
I thought I was using the PDF from this post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10322839&postcount=713 but I just downloaded it again and it's not the same. I must have already had an earlier version or maybe that post was updated?
Okay, I'll try it again. I should have the results posted tomorrow night.
Okay, I'll try it again. I should have the results posted tomorrow night.
Thorn
King
I've completed a run through of the next turnset (T108-T118) using the latest testgame. Here's a turn by turn summary of what I did:
I think I followed what was wanted with Paired Clams but double check me on that. The last turn save (T118) is attached for your viewing pleasure!
The PDF is a big help when playing through the turnset. It would be nice to include SM and PC if possible.
I await further instruction.
Spoiler :
I think I followed what was wanted with Paired Clams but double check me on that. The last turn save (T118) is attached for your viewing pleasure!
The PDF is a big help when playing through the turnset. It would be nice to include SM and PC if possible.
I await further instruction.
