Rome Rapid Expansion

MorteEterna · Apr 9, 2009

Anarak said:
i'll wait for the strategy then i guess. I just don't see how you can do this with the Romans without getting rushed or without a lot of luck. If you say it's easy, then I'm intrested to know how...

you're roman strat is pretty good, but you wrote it a long time ago, and i've used it on occasion, i used to use them a lot. But my thing with them is that you've gotta be able to defend first, and a warrior army on a hill or moving archers around isn't gonna stop a rusher with half a brain.

Morte, you know I respect you as a player (2kforums I'm Grayson), and I'm not trying to insult you with my questioning. I can pull off and always try to get 10+ cities in the BC with a lot of civs, even more with China, Spain, and the Americans, but the romans don't have many growth bonuses. I'm not seeing where you can get the growth and settlers without relying on a lot of gold, which isn't coming every game. even with the gold, the growth isn't there. You've gotta have your cities to three to pump out the settlers in 5 turns and keep them at 2. You've gotta grow rome back up, you've gotta have some hammers spent on units to explore.

If left alone, I have no doubt you can build mass amounts of cities, but I don't think this can be done to the tune of 15 cities if people are coming for you.

Maybe it's because my strategy is pretty old, but it still was good to expand fast. Kadazzle has seen me using chinese and I had like 20 cities in 35 turns, I got the confucious's school but I got only great artist and scientist.. It's not luck, it's only experience I would say.. Romans can build cities in 7 turns normally without losing population. If you get 100 gold or more, then you need 2 turns per city to get 3 new cities, you should try it and see how it is easy, just work on food 2 turns (getting 8 food) then work on settler. Why don't I work 3 turns getting at least 10? Because if you lose 1 population and go to 1, you MUST work on food to grow, and 8+2 = 10, and it's 1 turn (4 hammers)

I used this also against one of the best aztec player, he was top5-10 but he dropped the leaderboard.. He was bunchadorks. I won at least 2 times using romans and with warriors I killed his horsemen. It's not luck, but you have just to set your warrior army that you should get at the start and it's pretty easy. Or, if you defend with it you shouldn't lose.

As far as I know, I'm the only roman player, and I meet one of them, *honestly* I think I'm the best using romans, maybe it's because I love them :lol:

And, when you start building all these cities, you have got few problems, I still remember when in 40 turns I got like 20 cities, 17 technologies and arabs were near me. They came with 2 veteran horsemen armies and I stopped them using archers then legions

GGrayson · Apr 9, 2009

bunchadorks is a decent player, but I never lost to him. He could rush ok, but I was always shocked to see how high he was on the leaderboards after I played him. but if your romans held up against him, then you're doing something right.

I have no doubt that the Chinese can build 20 cities in the BC. That's usually not a problem. They usually have more ease fighting off people, and people are usually scarded to rush the chinese because they fear their power and big cities. This is a mistake in my book. You've gotta get to the chinese in the BC, because once they hit 14 techs, it is officially all over if they know what they are doing.

The romans do take a lot of skill to use, but I've found I've won more games by not going all out for 10 cities really fast, more like 7 well defended cities around 30 turns, and then go all out expanding more. It depends on the game though. If you've got a lot of map and are holding rushers off, then get more. I just usually try to get into the Romans camp to make expansion harder, and that slows them down from building a lot of cities. After that, you just can't let the romans start building cheap wonders.

I know math for not dropping pop and the importance of working on food before getting more settlers, but it just seems like that's a lot of turns spent to get the 15-20 cities with the romans by 3000BC. I'll try to work on it a little agaisnt the AI to make sure I'm not missing something, and if anyone else comes up with it, please go ahead and post it here. I already know strategies for the Romans that work for me, but this boatload of cities while still defending has me preplexed.

on a side note, morte it would be cool if you did write more strats. a lot of them are written a long time ago, and it's a testament to you that most of them still hold up this long after they have been written.

MKElderGod · Apr 14, 2009

Yo Morte do this community a favor and help us understand how to rapidly expand with the Romans please.

MorteEterna · Apr 14, 2009

MKElderGod said:
Yo Morte do this community a favor and help us understand how to rapidly expand with the Romans please.

I already wrote a strategy and it should still be ok.. It's difficult to tell you, the trick is to work 2 turns on 2 grasslands then you rush the settler as fast as possible, and with cities having only 1 grassland and at least 1 forest, you work on balanced, then if possible you rush the settler or work on two forests. You should build cities everywhere, if possible behind your most important cities (with more food and production ) and without spending useless gold or production on galleys. You balance then gold and science depending on what you need and about enemies (if they are advanced, etc..).. If you need then and if you got a good produciton, build a galleon or galley, depending on the era, build more settlers and keep expanding. Obviously, before making new settlers in new cities build 1 or 2 archers. Use roads when you need support and if you think your enemy is becoming too strong, build a lot of legions in the first era, like 10 armies (it's easy to do), if possible with a barrack producing at least 1 veteran legion, then you need 10 veteran legions (focus gold rushing these legions first). After this, if you aren't sure, go for religion and you will crush your enemy. If you don't need, keep expanding and working on science, obviously you should get irrigation as fast as possible

MKElderGod · Apr 14, 2009

MorteEterna said:
I already wrote a strategy and it should still be ok.. It's difficult to tell you, the trick is to work 2 turns on 2 grasslands then you rush the settler as fast as possible, and with cities having only 1 grassland and at least 1 forest, you work on balanced, then if possible you rush the settler or work on two forests. You should build cities everywhere, if possible behind your most important cities (with more food and production ) and without spending useless gold or production on galleys. You balance then gold and science depending on what you need and about enemies (if they are advanced, etc..).. If you need then and if you got a good produciton, build a galleon or galley, depending on the era, build more settlers and keep expanding. Obviously, before making new settlers in new cities build 1 or 2 archers. Use roads when you need support and if you think your enemy is becoming too strong, build a lot of legions in the first era, like 10 armies (it's easy to do), if possible with a barrack producing at least 1 veteran legion, then you need 10 veteran legions (focus gold rushing these legions first). After this, if you aren't sure, go for religion and you will crush your enemy. If you don't need, keep expanding and working on science, obviously you should get irrigation as fast as possible

what are you teching with?

MKElderGod · Apr 30, 2009

Just realized spain has whales but romans have cow. So spain doesnt have a real advantage with the whale plus col argument.

GGrayson · Apr 30, 2009

MKElderGod said:
Just realized spain has whales but romans have cow. So spain doesnt have a real advantage with the whale plus col argument.

except for there are more whales on all maps than cows. also, whales give 4 food 2 science while cows only give 4 food. I usually rush a galleon and a settler in madrid, find 2 islands with whales, and tech up and rush settlers from the islands. Islands are generally safer, and have better trade resources around them. 2 whales by an island is actually pretty common, it's not so common to see two cows next to each other.

arguement back on!

(or ended if you'd just agree with me, makes things more simple

)

MKElderGod · May 1, 2009

Yea but the Romans have col cows and half price roads. So the advantages of massive expansion are pretty much open on turn one. Also romans pretty much need only 5 basic techs. Than the Romans are open to currency, Literacy and democracy before other civs except Chinese(literacy). Free market, caravan, +1 sci and Democracy are very strong with a volume of cities. Also all you need is one nice production city to grow and spam wonders. Which leads to the spam of temples which leads to alot of great people. Ive ran a game where i had 30 techs by 1000AD. I was expanding uncontrollably. The half price wonders and more great people allow you to grow very strong cities of science gold culture and production. I realized that half price wonders really means that you have the benefits of any wonder that is availble for you to build because I was creating wonders from 3-8 turns which is peanuts compared to the benefits retrieved. If you dont destroy the Romans in 35 turns, I dont see how you would stop them.

GGrayson · May 1, 2009

lol.... I like this thread, and I hope you don't think I'm arguing malciously, because I actually think it's good discussion

Yes, if the romans are left alone, which can happen, but shouldn't, they can build up a nice base. In single player they are one of the easiest civs to use. In multiplayer it's a lot tougher. And 30 techs by 1000AD is good, but not uncommon. Not matter what civ I'm using, I usually will get to the modern by 500AD-1000AD, usually fastest with more tech friendly civs like Chinese, Spanish, and Japan.

There really aren't any top players on either systems that have the Romans as their favorite civ. That doesn't mean top players don't use them, and I do use them from time to time (not annoiting myself a top player), but for the most part, you don't see them used. But that's just indirect evidience.

I never really have any trouble beating the Romans, and that's probably due to who I am playing against, and not an indictment against the Romans. I think they are a solid civ, but just not the best expanding civ. I've give that title to the Chinese, Americans, and Zulu, with Romans a step behind.

The half priced roads are nice, but they can actually be a negative thing, since they can be used by others, blockaded by others, and they still cost gold (granted, a lot less) that you could use on units or more importantly, settlers. The romans are the only civ that I consider using roads with, and still, that's few and far between.

Just to use the Spainish as an example, because we've already been discussing them vs. Romans:
- half priced roads don't trump galleons. Galleons give you much swifter mobility around the map in the early game, not just for exploring, but expanding and rushing as well.
- whales trump cows, because they give 4 food and 2 science and there is always way more whales on any map than cows.
- the romans rely on getting lots of cities early on the mainland, whereas the spanish can settle on the mainland, but more importantly, on lots of islands right away.
- Lots of mainland cities will mean it's easier to get rushed. Granted, if you defend correctly and counterattack well, you should be able to quell most rushers, but doing so slows down expansion. Also, by having roads, it just means if one city is conquered, they'll get to your next quickly (of course the can be countered by placing units on your roads so others can use them).

I've just never had a problem against the Romans. If you'd like to play me, I'd be more than willing to. We could even play a peaceful game if you want (where you can't attack your human opponnet's cities). I don't see how the romans would get a non-dom victory faster than any trade-powerhouse civ. But even in a non-peaceful game, I just haven't seen them keep up well to players who are burning in tech.

MKElderGod · May 1, 2009

GGrayson said:
lol.... I like this thread, and I hope you don't think I'm arguing malciously, because I actually think it's good discussion

Yes, if the romans are left alone, which can happen, but shouldn't, they can build up a nice base. In single player they are one of the easiest civs to use. In multiplayer it's a lot tougher. And 30 techs by 1000AD is good, but not uncommon. Not matter what civ I'm using, I usually will get to the modern by 500AD-1000AD, usually fastest with more tech friendly civs like Chinese, Spanish, and Japan.

There really aren't any top players on either systems that have the Romans as their favorite civ. That doesn't mean top players don't use them, and I do use them from time to time (not annoiting myself a top player), but for the most part, you don't see them used. But that's just indirect evidience.

I never really have any trouble beating the Romans, and that's probably due to who I am playing against, and not an indictment against the Romans. I think they are a solid civ, but just not the best expanding civ. I've give that title to the Chinese, Americans, and Zulu, with Romans a step behind.

The half priced roads are nice, but they can actually be a negative thing, since they can be used by others, blockaded by others, and they still cost gold (granted, a lot less) that you could use on units or more importantly, settlers. The romans are the only civ that I consider using roads with, and still, that's few and far between.

Just to use the Spainish as an example, because we've already been discussing them vs. Romans:
- half priced roads don't trump galleons. Galleons give you much swifter mobility around the map in the early game, not just for exploring, but expanding and rushing as well.
- whales trump cows, because they give 4 food and 2 science and there is always way more whales on any map than cows.
- the romans rely on getting lots of cities early on the mainland, whereas the spanish can settle on the mainland, but more importantly, on lots of islands right away.
- Lots of mainland cities will mean it's easier to get rushed. Granted, if you defend correctly and counterattack well, you should be able to quell most rushers, but doing so slows down expansion. Also, by having roads, it just means if one city is conquered, they'll get to your next quickly (of course the can be countered by placing units on your roads so others can use them).

I've just never had a problem against the Romans. If you'd like to play me, I'd be more than willing to. We could even play a peaceful game if you want (where you can't attack your human opponnet's cities). I don't see how the romans would get a non-dom victory faster than any trade-powerhouse civ. But even in a non-peaceful game, I just haven't seen them keep up well to players who are burning in tech.

I have to disagree.
-Half price roads are meant to save your skin. Gather units up. Basically you dont make them until you need them.
-Whales usually dont have decent production tiles around them. Youll have growth but where is the production? Ive seen many times where whale cities have 1 forest or none.
-Your assumption that a roman player wont expand outside the mainland is wrong. Your galleon wont stop me from using galleys. Which is all i need for the seas. Until i get Navi my self.
-Romans are also open to currency Lit and Demo before anyone. Currency will allow you to have a nice gold city before anyone. Giving you the ability to rush your settlers.

To me the Romans make there abilities thats what makes them crazy.

MKElderGod · May 1, 2009

Island cities dont help military conflicts on the main land. For example.

I have 10-15 cities main land and 2-5 Island. I can have up to 10-15 units being built per turn on the main land.

For spain it will looks like the opposite. Which sucks because you need to protect your cap.

Half Price Wonder means im nuking that cap.

GGrayson · May 1, 2009

MKElderGod said:
Island cities dont help military conflicts on the main land. For example.

I have 10-15 cities main land and 2-5 Island. I can have up to 10-15 units being built per turn on the main land.

For spain it will looks like the opposite. Which sucks because you need to protect your cap.

Half Price Wonder means im nuking that cap.

yeah, rome can do rushes well if they are allowed to build a lot of cities. The legion rush seems the most powerful to me, especially if used to take out arabs or indians and then getting religion. I use that tactic with them a lot.

But usually I have no problem rushing with the spanish, if I need to early on. Later rushes are with knights and tanks, which often don't need a lot of units (but it does help). But if i don't have a big mainland precence with the spanish, often times I'll bunker down with madrid and let the islands do the tech/gold. Madrid and other mainland cities will have barracks and defensive/offensive armies.... But as for the nuke: I've never seen one used against me. I've never been in a game that's lasted that long. (over 1000 MP games played).

As for unit spamming, the americans do that way better too. With republic and 1/2 costs units, they just get stupid with settlers and units.

As for expanding right away: Chinese are better, because new cities start at a higher pop, and i'll take 1/2 cost libraries over half cost wonders any day.

but we should play :cool:

, and not for "bragging rights" or anything like that. I'm genuniely intrested to see what you do with the Romans that I haven't seen before. And it's always fun to get in a game with people u know from the boards, not just random ppl online in ranked.

MorteEterna · May 1, 2009

MKElderGod said:
Yea but the Romans have col cows and half price roads. So the advantages of massive expansion are pretty much open on turn one. Also romans pretty much need only 5 basic techs. Than the Romans are open to currency, Literacy and democracy before other civs except Chinese(literacy). Free market, caravan, +1 sci and Democracy are very strong with a volume of cities. Also all you need is one nice production city to grow and spam wonders. Which leads to the spam of temples which leads to alot of great people. Ive ran a game where i had 30 techs by 1000AD. I was expanding uncontrollably. The half price wonders and more great people allow you to grow very strong cities of science gold culture and production. I realized that half price wonders really means that you have the benefits of any wonder that is availble for you to build because I was creating wonders from 3-8 turns which is peanuts compared to the benefits retrieved. If you dont destroy the Romans in 35 turns, I dont see how you would stop them.

30 techs by 1000 AD in fact is not uncommon (Against kyoday I got 30 techs by 200-300 AD with spanish, but he probably froze it with the lag)

With romans you can do it really well, if you know what you are doing and you haven't got a really bad map. 3000 science per turn by 1400-1500 AD is possible also against good players in MP games. I really love romans because:

- I'm Italian

- They can expand really easy (more than chinese, if you know how to use them)
- You can have a huge production (I mean everything, counting hammers and gold at least)
- You can use a lot of bonuses like roads, to move units really fast
- You can win a game you are losing, perhaps using 10 legions armies (all veteran) or 5-6 horsemen armies. This works as well, then if you want to be sure convert all workers to science and go for religion, you will crush also these chinese players teching up like crazy

MKElderGod · May 1, 2009

I want to play but my Roman Strategy isnt totally solid yet. Im still testing some ideas. But im sure ill be done soon.

edit
Half Price Libraries suck. By the time im in the industrial era I could already rush buy libraries even universities.

GGrayson · May 1, 2009

MKElderGod said:
I want to play but my Roman Strategy isnt totally solid yet. Im still testing some ideas. But im sure ill be done soon.

edit
Half Price Libraries suck. By the time im in the industrial era I could already rush buy libraries even universities.

ummmm......

this is the worst point you have made. 20 hammer libraries for chinese cities is probably one of the most powerful bonuses in the game. If you let a chinese player go unchecked to 14 techs, and he rushes libraries, the game is almost out of reach. I'm usually getting tech wins with the chinese online around 1200AD-1500AD, on single player I've done it before 1000AD.

and you aren't getting universities by the time you get to the industrial (14 techs), and you definatly don't have the gold to rush a 160 hammer building in all your cities, if you were able to do this, it would basically mean you have about enough money to win the game with an economic victory. Plus you don't have the tech to get university, which ususally comes around your 20th tech.

you should play me though, i'll show the holes in your roman strat a lot quicker than the AI will.

MKElderGod · May 1, 2009

I dont have the gold to rush universities in every city but ill have it in all my cities eventually. Quicker than you think. A gold city with currency (free market) than a bank than trade fair, (this city will also most likely have a gold man). Plus a Specialized production city to pump wonders. East india will change the game in my favor. Plus oxford will give me flight, Advance flight or Atomic which will than give me the ability to mass bombers or bring out the icbm.

BTW didnt we play once. You were spain I was Rome. You were going for an economic but I massed bombers. Game was over. Whats your tag? Mines NAA Spec Forces. Also you wont be going unchecked and im sure i wont be either.

MKElderGod · May 1, 2009

BTW I dont play the computer. Unless your referring to the ai online.

GGrayson · May 1, 2009

I don't recall any games against you, and definately not one w/ romans vs spain that had bombers.

my tags are in my sig (amazingrayson and test Grayson)

I sent you a friend request about a month ago cuz I recognized you from the boards, but I don't think you accepted it or something.. I dunno..

but, yeah if you ever wanna get in some games, that could be fun. It's always more fun to play with people you talk to outside of XBL.

MKElderGod · May 1, 2009

edit

amazingrayson that was you. Dude we played once or twice. I remember that game like it was yesterday because I was proud of that victory. Your were well on your way to economic win. 6 or 7 out of 8. I was hitting you with tanks but it wasnt doing the trick. So I sent the tanks to the Comp and took them over. Than I hit Oxford and got bombers. I started to mass em and sent them straight to you. My side of the place was on the left while you had a strip of land on the right that ran down a pennisula. You had like 3-5 cities mainland. Once I nuked your cap you quit. It was one of the most amazing games I played. It had to be you because I remember the name amazing. Actually I might even have pics.

GGrayson · May 1, 2009

MKElderGod said:
edit

amazingrayson that was you. Dude we played once or twice. I remember that game like it was yesterday because I was proud of that victory. Your were well on your way to economic win. 6 or 7 out of 8. I was hitting you with tanks but it wasnt doing the trick. So I sent the tanks to the Comp and took them over. Than I hit Oxford and got bombers. I started to mass em and sent them straight to you. My side of the place was on the left while you had a strip of land on the right that ran down a pennisula. You had like 3-5 cities mainland. Once I nuked your cap you quit. It was one of the most amazing games I played. It had to be you because I remember the name amazing. Actually I might even have pics.

I don't know. I don't ever remember getting nuked in MP, but that's sounds like the kind of game that I would block out of my mind

but if that's the case, then we def need to play more, sounds like it would be a good matchup. I love games where both players make it to the modern and it's a crazy fight to the finish. Those games are few and far between.

add me, and we'll play next time we're both free

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