All Leaders Challenge Game Strategy Session: Montezuma

Sisiutil

All Leader Challenger
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
Messages
6,899
Location
Pacific Northwest
Update: October 19th, 2006
Since I was getting close to my 20 MB file attachment limit, I have decided to remove all the saved game files from this thread except for the initial save. I have archived the files, so if you want them, send me a PM.
- Sisiutil

Okay, enough talk, let's get to it.

Pre-Game Thread

(1st Round: to 3600 BC)

I've started my Montezuma game. But rather than just blazing through it and reporting back, I thought I'd take full advantage of the forum and all you wonderful people. I'm going to just play a few turns of this game each day and post my progress here. I'll also post screenies and saved game files (at the bottom of the post). This isn't a succession game, but you're welcome to try the same start and report back on your results.

(Edit: To jump straight to the game post-mortem, CLICK HERE.)

I'm asking you folks to weigh in and give me your opinions on how to progress. I'm looking to learn and improve my strategy and tactics, obviously, as well as having fun. I thought I'd post a handful of turns at first, but move through the turns faster as the game goes on; those first few turns are very important.

So here goes:

Civilization/Leader: Aztecs/Montezuma
Difficulty: Prince
Speed: Normal
Map: Continents
Climate: Temperate
Sea Level: Medium
Map Size: Standard


Vanilla, I know, but I figure then we can focus on standard strategy rather than whatever curve ball some variation throws at me. I was tempted to choose a fractal map, but since installing the 1.61 patch, the Continents map always seems to place me on the biggest continent with three or four other civs. That's ideal for Monty, because I figure I'm gonna warmonger, so I want a lot of victims within easy reach of my Jaguars.

So here's the opening position:



Not too shabby! Plenty of forests for chopping, a river for commerce, a food resource within the first ring...and oooh, look, a goody hut, right beside my Scout!

The goody hut yeilded 50 gold, and I took the starting position. I used to go find coast for my first city, but lately I've realized there's a definite advantage to hiding your capital inland, away from prying eyes aboard galleys and caravels. Plus I've found that the higher the level, the less you can afford to delay building that first city.



You'll notice I decided to research Meditation and go for Buddhism off the bat. A bit of a risk, I know, especially at Prince where the AI has an immediate tech advantage. But it might be early enough so it's not THAT big an advantage. Plus I'm hoping the other spiritual civs will go after worker techs at first, or go for Polytheism since it opens up a Wonder. Also, Meditation will take me 8 turns, Polytheism 10. You'll notice I don't have a commerce boost in near Tenochtitlan to speed that up. The spices are nice, but I can't exploit them until I get Calendar--and that's not going to be a high priority tech for me. I'll have to trade/extort for it most likely.

In terms of an overall tech strategy, I'm thinking of jumping back and forth between religious and military techs. I'll have to research Alphabet too, but once I do, I hope to get most of my civilian techs through trades or tribute.

I'm also going to build two more Scouts. This will give Tenochtitlan time to grow a little. Plus I figure I'm on a big continent, and I need to get out there and find all my victims quickly. On top of that, the Scouts +2 movement means they could find more goody huts than the competition, and they'll get better results from them. I hope to get a tech or two and/or gold to fund my initial research.

I send the Scout off to the Northwest, and a couple of turns later, guess what? Another goody hut! Look what I popped this one for:



This just confirms my decision to build Scouts. A few more huts like that and I'll be saying, "Who needs cottages?" Yes, there's also ivory and silk up there, and a river, and the coast. (War Elephants! Woot!) Possible second city, probably on that plains square--though the two desert tiles kind of suck. Maybe the hill to the plains tile's Northeast would be better--depending what's around it. But then I'd miss out on the Elephants...

Meanwhile, Tenochtitlan's borders have expanded to the full fat X:



Okay, so there's a cow tile there, but outside the city's workable area, and it's on a long strip of coastline with a bunch of desert to the South. Ugh. Oh well, Animal Husbandry is not a big priority just yet...

I turned the Scout South; I decided to send the next one North to explore that area. In most of my Prince-level continent games, I find myself tucked away in one corner of the continent. I haven't seen snow-capped trees or tundra yet, but I've got a gut feeling there's more action to the South.

Turns out I'm right:



I've met my first target...er, closest neighbour. Hatty can be pretty easy to get along with, I've found. This would be good, as her War Chariots have equal strength to Axemen (and close to Jaguars) if they catch them on open ground--which, with that +2 movement, is likely. I'll either have to counter her War Chariots with Spearmen, or wait until I have a much better unit. My free Combat I promotion could help, though, along with an additional promotion from cheap barracks. All that could make an early war against her feasible. And she may not have horses...

Anyway, I'm getting way ahead of myself.

Now, which way should that Scout go? Hatty is obviously somewhere further East. Do I go there and find her first city? Nope. I only have a Scout, so I can't do any raiding. Plus I'm still looking for city sites and goody huts, and I'm betting that Warrior of hers popped anything over that way. I'm going to turn my Scout Southeast and beat the competition to that area.

Well, looky what I found:



...and only a stone's throw from Tenochtitlan! (Pun fully intentional.) Both Stonehenge and the Pyramids are distinct possibilities if I plant my second city there. It's a good production site, too: more forests for chopping, hills galore (grassland hills for some food--nice), a cute little lake, and even a river! Those plains/river tiles could eventually get watermills...if the game goes on that long. I'm thinking of that grassland tile by the lake for my second city now. I might put a third over by the flood plains and gold hills to seal off the North from Hatty and others, then backfill it.

And if you were watching that tech bar, you may have guessed that on the next turn...



YES!! The gamble pays off. And having the capital as the holy city is going to help in many ways. However, I haven't adopted Buddhism as my state religion. That would just mess up relations at this point, especially with Hatty, who is also Spiritual and probably working on religious tech herself.

Time to switch to military research. I could go after Polytheism, but was betting another Spiritual civ out there was researching it. In fact, on the very next turn, I was proved right. "Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!". Whoever it is would have beaten me to it by one turn--thanks to the Prince level AI's tech research bonus, no doubt. (I'm pretty sure it's not Hatty--mainly because the little Hindu icon did not appear next to her name.) Anyway, I've decided to bee-line to Bronze Working.

Along the way I built my second Scout and sent him Northeast. I started building my third and final Scout. When he's done I figure I'll start building a Barracks but switch to a Worker when the turns to build him and discover BW match, then chop Warrior-Warrior-Settler.

So here's the sitch at 3600 BC--ten turns in, which is where I've stopped:





Tenochtitlan is about to grow to 2 population on the
 
Here's my first dotmap for the game:



Look how perfectly that all fits together! City 2 will be a top-notch production centre, while 3 is going to be good for commerce (3 flood plains, 1 gold mine, clams and sheep for food)--possible science city, though food production will be a problem later on. The capital looks like a likely GP farm. Cities 4 and 5 will be general purpose, though 4 could be a second production centre.

Not that it's perfect. I still have to explore that remaining patch up North. And I do miss out on one of the gold hills to the southwest, unless I move city 3 over to the desert tile on the west side of the inlet--or hope Hatty doesn't plant a city too close by so I have that second gold hill in the city's third ring.

There's a few too many water tiles around city 5 for my liking, but necessary to get that fish tile. I may forgo working it, move 5 one tile south, and get the fish in the third ring. I'd also like to put a city to the southeast to cut off access to the capital completely; so that may be the fourth city, and the two Northern ones will have to wait.

And I still have to research and find copper, iron, and horses.
 
Nice start. Good calls with the scouting. And getting Buddhism in the capital is excellent.
Sisiutil said:
A few more huts like that and I'll be saying, "Who needs cottages?"
LOL! I liked that one. I'm at work right now (can't DL the savegames), so what follows are my observations from what you've posted.

I could tell from the first screenshot that you were north of the equator (the resource arrows always point up/down based on your relation to the equator), but that doesn't tell us how the continent is shaped and where the others are in relation to the start. You seem to have a good feel for how things are set up on continents maps. Good call on scouting choices.

Are you playing with barbarians turned off? If not, I probably would have built a warrior rather than a third scout. I've learned the hard way what its like to be halfway through building your first warrior when the barbs show up. On a continents map two scouts can probably scout most of the immediate area, even considering the possibility that one gets eaten.

Good job on the tech choices, too. I like the idea of agriculture then masonry from this point. Agriculture should come first, especially for the wheat at the capital, and to have ready later to jumpstart growth in the other cities. Also, stone that close just begs to be used. Getting Stonehenge makes it easy to get Great Prophets early, which is really useful for the religious strategy you outlined in your pre-game post (which worked wonders in my testgame, BTW). I tend to get Stonehenge and then put off getting Calendar for a long time (really, too long). Since there are several resources nearby that need Calendar, it might be worth obsoleting the obelisks to work them in the late-early game. Still, Stonehenge is something I would definitely aim for.

As for city placement, you still have time before having to decide that, and that's good. I would like to see the fog-covered area in the central north and on the west before deciding on any sites. Placing one city down can end up forcing other sites, even if exploration shows they might not be optimal. Exploring those two fog areas is important enough that I would assign a scout to that job while the other goes hut-hunting. And yes, I'm really hoping there's fertile land around that gold. :)

City site #2 could indeed be a production powerhouse, but not before Biology. It doesn't have enough excess food to be able to work enough of those hills. Besides, the capital has only two hills and site #2 would overlap one of those. I was thinking that if you moved site #2 up one, left two then it could be an *early* production powerhouse. It would still have the stone in the immediate ring, allowing early use.

That would require site #3 to be placed directly on top of the ivory, making it a fantastic production city with all those hills to work supported by grassland river tiles that can be farmed and sheep to jumpstart the growth. Missing out on the clams for #3 might not be bad. Depending on the terrain around the gold, the clams might be the saving grace that allows a city to work both gold hills in the west.

These two optional sites would reduce (by one) the number of coastal cities you would start with, but coastal cities won't really be needed until later in the game. The coast-specific wonders are great, especially on a continents map, but I think you might have to pull yourself in too many different directions to try for it.

Coastal will be needed later in the game, but there should be plenty of other good coastal sites you can settle or capture later. In the early game quick expansion is my focus, and production cities allow for pointy-stick expansion. Of course those site suggestions are tentative right now, and could change depending on what is revealed in the fogged area.

Okay, hurry up and play the next set of turns. I'm impatient. :) J/K
 
Just one small note: why did you build the capital immediately? If I am seeing correctly, there was a plains hill tile with just 1 turn loss - usually a very good investment.
 
atreas said:
If I am seeing correctly, there was a plains hill tile with just 1 turn loss - usually a very good investment.
Good point, and that's something I would have done, too. Not only would the city get the hills defense bonus, but settling on a plains hill gives you an extra hammer in your center tile.

From the starting screen, you can see that moving onto the plains hill would not only give you the extra production, but would give two grassland hills to work instead of one plains hill and one grassland hill. It would also move away from the two plains tiles up north, replacing them with a forested grasslands tile and another that can't quite be made out yet. Overall, moving onto the plains hill to settle would have been worth the one-turn delay. Still, not a bad starting location even having settled in place.
 
I would cram in more cities, and make more use of the sea rather than less.

lighthouse, harbours, great lighthouse, colossus

Do I really need to say anything more?


Make sure all land is covered for working or will be potentially covered, especially a gold mine!
The only land I will ignore is flat arctic, tundra, desert and plains.
Sea tiles are very good (see above)
They are also excellent to switch all work to if you need a big commerce boost.
 
This is fun! I didn't read most of your post because I intend to play along later... maybe you could post at the top what year you played to so folks can follow along and compare notes? :D
 
I wont be playing this particular game, because I just got done (am finishing razing the last few cities actually) with a montazuma game on prince.

Good move on the scouts. Use those to find where your victim(s) is(are). If you are lucky enough to get a few huts, all the better.

I say go after Iron Working and pump out jags. If you get it early enough, 5 should be plenty to take out Thebes. This early in the game, the AI usually only has 2 defenders per city, and they will probably have 3 - 4 cities by the time you go to *cough* visit them.

Having a spiritual civ next to you greatly works in your favor, because they will go after the spiritual techs instead of BW for axemen. Jags will rip archers after they get the cover promotion from the barracks. (alternatively, use CR)

Egypt will have improved much of the land around her cities, and you can use the captured workers to backfill the improvements around your capital using the worker improvements you researched after you got IW. Your economy will suffer just a little, but you will be in much better shape overall.
 
Thanks for the input, everyone! I'm at work too, but I'll be playing and posting the next few turns tonight. I think I'll go a few more turns this time, at least to the point where my second city has been founded.

Speaking of which: Tyrant, I really like your idea for the placement of city #2. I've been fretting about how close Hatty might be to the third site in my dot map, and about rushing two Settlers off the bat. Your suggestion ensures that I get the stone AND seal off the North with one city rather than two. Brilliant! Provided, as you suggest, some further Scouting bears all this out, that's probably where city #2 will go.

And thanks for the tip on the resource arrows. Based upon my so-called "gut instinct", I think I was subliminally aware of that, but I'm gonna remember and exploit that factoid from now on.

By the way, barbs ARE on (my second scout is fortified in a forest tile up North because of an encroaching Wolf, IIRC). Good suggestion. I think I have time before the barbs switch from animals to Warriors to pump out my third Scout, but then build Warrior-Worker, then chop Warrior-Settler rather than starting a Barracks just yet. That building is cheap for an Aggressive civ, so it can wait.

I hear you on the plains tile near the captial, though I confess I had not considered it closely enough. I think if I hadn't been playing as a Spiritual civ and wanting to get one of the first two religions, I might have gone for it. But I'm sure I got Buddhism only because I did not take a one turn delay, and the 9th turn founding of Hinduism confirms that. I'm sure there's another Spiritual civ out there cursing me right now. Civ is all about "interesting choices", as Sid says, and I've made that one and have to live with it. I think the eventual Shrine in the capital will compensate for any forgone commerce, and I plan on being so aggressive that no one is ever gonna get near Tenochtitlan, so I hopefully won't regret the lost city defense bonus. Keep in mind it's inland, too, and therefore highly unlikely to be a target for attack, especially if there is a string of border cities to the South. Frankly, I'm more prone to put border cities on hills rather than my capital.

Shivute, I'm normally fond of coastal tiles like you (as my initial dot map probably shows), but I'm gonna go with Tyrant on this one. I suspect I'm on a big continent, so my navy is going to be a low priority. I don't have Fishing and have several other early techs to get first. (I'm thinking after BW I'll go Agriculture-Masonry-Iron Working, then bee-line to Monotheism before acquiring the Wheel and Pottery.) I'm not Financial, Expansive, or Organized, so I get no bonuses for coastal tiles or buildings; I'm not Creative, and that, combined with that stone resource, is making Stonehenge more appealing than the Colossus. And I wanna build lots of military units FAST, and that means hammers. Talk to me about coastal tiles when I play as Isabella on a fractal or archipeligo map. ;)

I haven't found any other civs besides Egypt yet, but I'm leaning towards Hatty for my first early war in order to catch her early, just like The Keeper is suggesting. That slow-moving Warrior makes me suspect she's just too darn close to the gold hills that are rightfully mine. If she builds the Pyramids or beats me to Monotheism, she's definitely going under the knife.

As for the Scouts, if #2 survives his encounter with the Wolf, he'll finish exploring the North and head due South. #1 is already heading Southeast and will continue that way. #3, currently being built, will head West to scout a city site near that Gold and to locate Hatty.

This has already been really helpful. I tend to play the first few turns a little too fast, and slowing down and getting advice is really opening my eyes to a lot of things. I think I'm going to make a screencap dot map more of a habit, for one thing.
 
My revised dot map based on Tyrant's suggestions. I'll hold off on thinking about any more cities until I explore a little more, especially North and West. City site 2 is looking pretty definite, while 3 could change depending on what I find, and especially where copper appears once I discover BW.

I notice that city 2 doesn't completely seal off the North, so a city up near 3 may be required for that. Moving #2 one tile West would do it, but is not an option. I would trade 2 grassland and one grassland hill for 2 desert and one desert hill. :thumbdown I gain another floodplain, but lose a plains/forest. Overall, it would be a loss of 5 food for my intended production city. Fuggedaboudit.

Besides, if I get lucky with Stonehenge and Monotheism, City #2 should expand to its third ring pretty quickly and seal off the North like I want. If I see a Settler heading North before then, he dies.

 
(2nd Round: to 1960 BC)

As I mentioned, I had a few goals in mind for this round of turns before I posted here again:

- Finish researching Bronze Working and find copper.
- Research two key worker techs: Agriculture and Masonry.
- Have my Scouts explore key areas of the map.
- Build my second city.
- Start building Stonehenge.

I'm happy to say I've achieved all of those things, but I have also discovered a few potential challenges, and I'll appreciate your input on how to deal with them.

First off, the walk-through and highlights:

Scout #1, as I mentioned, kept going Southeast. As he progressed, there were a few tiles in the fog just North of him that would require doubling back to reveal. I almost left them, but I have an anal retentive streak that makes me leave no black tile unlit. Boy, am I glad for that obsessive/compulsive tic:



The Wheel! I love it. As a veteran Civ II player, I'm used to ALWAYS starting with the ability to build roads, farms, and mines, so I kind of resent having to research techs to open those up. Getting one for free made my day.

Scout #2 also found a goody hut--the fourth, if you're counting--and got experience.



Huh. Okay, I would have liked another tech or gold, but I'll take what I can get. I gave him the two woodsman promotions and bestowed upon him the honorific "Woody".

As you can see, Woody survived his earlier encounter with the wolf and has successfully revealed the land to the North. Hills, hills, and more hills. Great for production, sucky for food. As Tyrant pointed out about my previous location for city 2, a site like this is better for late production when you're close to discovering biology. However, as you'll soon see, I may have no choice but to put a city up there VERY quickly...

Tenochtitlan finished Scout 3, whom I imaginatively named as such--hey, if he reaches Level 3, he gets a cute name too. I changed production to Warrior - Worker - Warrior - Settler. I sent Scout 3 West, and this is what he found:



Well, bugger. Lots of desert and plains near those lucrative gold hills. And worse still, look how close Hatty's borders are! The more I think about it, the more I realize she's not long for this Earth.

Speaking of other civs, my scouts met the other civs squatting on my continent: Qin (Southeast), Ghandi (Southwest), and Peter (South). It's been my experience that Qin and Ghandi will both give you a run for your money in terms of tech research, while Peter is usually a middle-of-the-pack Civ. He's still dangerous, though, especially if you leave him alive long enough to get Cossacks (shudder). Also, Peter seems to always hate me through the early game, then in late mid-game he suddenly shows up offering me a really sweet tech trade and wants to be my buddy. Not that I'm going to rely on that, but I won't be surprised if it happens again.

So in terms of diplomacy and aggression (same thing when you're Monty), I'm now planning on taking out Hatty first while befriending Ghandi and Qin. Peter I'll leave to his own devices for awhile, not courting him but not ticking him off either. When Hatty's done, either Ghandi or Qin go down. I'm not sure who's first. Ghandi will be closer to Thebes after I take it, and his fast workers would have built up some very nice infrastructure. On the other hand, I'd like to take down Qin before he gets those Cho-Ko-Nus and mature cottages. Peter can wait, but has to get crippled or eliminated before those Cossacks appear. Advice, anyone?

I sent my second Warrior out to guard the site for City #2. He was one tile West when not one but two lions appeared! Well, too bad for them it was a forested hill. They attacked in the same turn, but my guy survived and earned a promo on top of his free Combat I!



You'll notice the first barb Warrior encroaching from the West. Normally I would have left the promo unassigned until I knew which one would be best, but barb-boy made it a no-brainer: Shock I for the +25% versus Melee. Barb Warrior fall down and go BOOM! Heh.

So, why haven't I renamed my Level 3 Warrior? Well, poor Woody died an ignoble death just a little to the South of the above screenshot at the paws of a barbarian bear (is there any other type?). His Woodsman II was little help against the strongest of the animal barbs, even when fortified in the equatorial jungle. He shall be mourned, and his name will live on in the annals of the Aztec empire. I couldn't help but think that a Jaguar would have survived the encounter. But long story short, I'm reluctant to rename and get fond of any of these weaker early units as a result. Sniff.

My remaining two Scouts, however, are still going strong. #2 has found the Southern extreme of the continent. As you can gather from the mini-map, I was right--I'm on a big-ass continent. Plenty of room for everybody, right? Can't we all just get along?



BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!! Get real! I'm Montezuma, psycho warrior extraordinaire, and I will have my revenge! (Okay, I'm not sure what I'm vengeful about. Maybe I'm just cranky from lack of sleep. The point is, people are gonna die.)

So you may have noticed that I jumped to the religious techs once the worker techs were done and am going after Monotheism and Judaism, having discovered the pre-req, Masonry. As with pursuing any religion, it's a gamble, but a calculated one. Consider this: of the Civs I've met, only Ghandi has the Mysticism tech as one of his starters. And he already has his religion; come to think of it, I've never seen Ghandi found Judaism; I wouldn't put it past him, but after he gets one of the earliest two, he seems to focus on worker techs.

Anyway, I'm going to give Monotheism a go, then focus on military for awhile: Iron Working for Jaguars, then Archery for defense. By then I should have Stonehenge and maybe...just maybe...some Axemen ready to go. More on that later...

My worker got built, and I had him build a farm on that wheatfield. Then he built a road to the new city site. The farm really boosted the production of my first settler--by the time the Worker finished it, the Settler had 8 turns to go, so it didn't seem worth chopping; I reserved that for Stonehenge, which is next. In fact, I did chop the forest immediately to the West of Tenochtitlan to give a head start to building the 'Henge and to remove a defense-heavy tile adjacent to my capital.

The second city is now built and fortified by that Level 3 Warrior (Combat I/Shock), which, as you can tell from the screenshot below, is a darn good thing:



ANOTHER barb Warrior! Thanks for the heads up, Tyrant.

And that is where I left off.

Oh, I almost forgot: copper! Well, I have good news and bad news. The good news is there's copper within 6 tiles of the capital, and in a spot none of the other civs on the continent will really be able to get to. The bad news...well, take a look:



Talk about a crapilicious, sucktacular location. Going by Tyrant's point about early versus late production sites, this one is gonna suck, but I don't really have a choice; I gotta put a city up there--most likely my next one. I think it's going to have to go on that tundra hill to get the fish and the sheep resources, which it's gonna need. It also means I'll need Sailing for Lighthouses earlier than I thought.

The one consolation is that so far, it looks like no one else has copper!! Check it out:





That would be just awesome. My Axemen and Jaguars would just RULE. However, there are a few unlit tiles, and it's a big continent. I'm gonna bet there's at least one or two more sources of copper South of me. I may have to rush whoever ends up squatting on them to maintain my advantage. We'll see, and as always, I'll appreciate your advice.

And here are the two cities at 1960 BC:





Stonehenge is already progressing thanks to that one forest chop, and you'll notice I've made that stone a priority. Once it's hooked up I'll see how many turns Stonehenge needs and will probably do one more chop. Meanwhile, Teotihuacan (can I just be politically incorrect and say I HATE Monty's unpronounceable and unspellable city names?!?) is producing my next Warrior/Settler combo, followed by a Worker, methinks--I need a long road built up to that copper, along with the mine.

Tech-wise, this is where I stand:



Frankly, if I get the message that "Judaism has been founded in a distant land!" I'm going to abandon Monotheism for the time being and jump to the very expensive but very worthwhile Iron Working.

So that's where it all sits at 1960 BC. All my goals have been achieved, but I'm gambling on founding a second religion and that copper is in a far-from-ideal location. I'll probably do another dot map and post that tonight or tomorrow, but feel free to post your own.

The game save is attached at the bottom of this post. I look forward to your thoughts and advice.
 
Sisiutil said:
I'm sure I got Buddhism only because I did not take a one turn delay, and the 9th turn founding of Hinduism confirms that. I'm sure there's another Spiritual civ out there cursing me right now.

I agree that with early religion being a very important part of the strategy, it was probably best to settle in place and go for it. As you said in an earlier post, having Buddhism founded in the capital will help in so many ways.

Now about the latest post: Wow, what a crappy location for copper. LOL! Wait, what am I saying? You have copper! YES! Okay, so it means you'll have to wait for city #3's borders to expand before you can mine the copper and before the sheep can be "pasteurized" (hey, why is everyone suddenly groaning?). It aslo means extra worker turns spent hooking the road up to the river (on tiles that won't be used for much of anything else in the near future, no less). That's okay, though. A little delay in getting the copper hooked up but copper is way better than no copper.

I love the look of that resource world view. The only nearby copper and possibly the only copper on the continent. Even if someone else down south has copper, I wouldn't bother trying to take them out just yet. That would only mean that the other one would start settling in that direction, requiring constant war to deny the copper.

From the map one thing is very clear -- Hatty's gotta die. Since capitals are usually sweet spots, it looks like Hatty has the best nearest terrain. After that, Gandhi looks like he could top the hit list but take his capital first, even if you have to bypass another city to do so. The reason for this is so you can see the impact on upkeep. The capital would probably be worth holding even at a high upkeep, and once you see how much it costs you can then decide whether or not to raze his other cities. Of course, right now this is all just long-term theorizing.

In the northern part of the continent, there is a decent variety of health resources but the happiness resources either require Calendar (ouch!) or techs that are a bit in the future. It might be worth it to make friends with either Peter or Qin (or both, at first) and trade resources.

I like seeing jungle! I love seeing jungle! It takes a while, but that is going to be some sweet land once the jungle is cleared.

Peter is building a road to a tile that needs to be farmed, so we can assume he has the Wheel and Agriculture. St. Petersburg seems to be an unusual choice for a second city site, especially considering the other available terrain. Since it was a blue-circle AI choice, we can assume that some sweet resource will be revealed in that area later. Don't know which one, but with the terrain around it, it will almost certainly turn out to be a valuable strategic resource. However, it might not show until late in the game, so I wouldn't make that an early target -- just something to keep in mind.

Edit: My dotmaps are always like the first one you posted. In the second dot-map the lines were much neater, and in yellow rather than red. Did you draw on the map after taking the screenshot or are you using a mod that gives finer control of the strategic level drawings?
 
Tyrant, thanks for the reminder that I only have to hook up a road to the river for access to the copper. And yes, I like jungle too. There's usually a huge swath of it, like there is here, and underneath is grassland. GP Farm, here I come...

Below is yet another dot map. This is something I'm going to start doing more often; the whole capital-on-a-plains-hill made me think my city placement needs work. The good news is that the fourth city site on top of the Elephants still works even with the less-than-ideal city 3 to work that copper.



The remaining cities are very speculative at this point. Heck, when I warmonger, I rarely found more than 6 cities. But the others would take full advantage of the grassland beneath the jungle, as well as those health and happiness resources, and cut off access to the core cities in the North. Not many coastal cities, but I suspect that Hatty's, Ghandi's, and Qin's capitals are on the coast and will be excelent for the production of warships, among other things. It does leave some gaps, but those could be filled in by later cities that would benefit from later techs/buildings/improvements to make them more viable.

None of this takes much account of conquered cities, granted. I wouldn't be surprised to find Peter's cities in that region; notice he's already only a little South of city 7. He might build cities in the jungle area and, if there decently placed, save me the trouble of building my own. MWA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAAA...

This is a useful exercise for me, if nothing else.
 
I would shift city N2 to rigth and down on Grassland near lake and shift city
N5 Diagonally rigth so it is next to gold and up from Oasis.
It will be exelent fresh warter coastal city with 2 gold mine, clams and 3 floodplan and Oasis
 
Mutineer said:
I would shift city N2 to rigth and down on Grassland near lake and shift city
N5 Diagonally rigth so it is next to gold and up from Oasis.
It will be exelent fresh warter coastal city with 2 gold mine, clams and 3 floodplan and Oasis
The second city has already been founded, so it isn't possible to adjust its location at this point.

I strongly suspect that Hatty will settle a city just west of N5 before Sisiutil can get a settler there. That would leave a gap in used tiles, but that gap will be desert anyway. Depending on where she places it, it might be more efficient to capture that city rather than build another settler. It would be nice to have that oasis tile, but it all depends on Hatty's placement.

I like the projected layout of city sites. I know what you mean about settling just a few cities (had one game where I never founded a second city, just went on a conquest spree based out of my capital). Whether you found those cities before or after the early war(s), those look like good locations.
 
Sisiutil said:
Below is yet another dot map. This is something I'm going to start doing more often

I find that to be one of the most enjoyable parts of the game. You can easily spend hours (ok, maybe not quite, but a long time) debating with yourself over the finer points of city placement. It's a strategy game, and that's one of the areas where your strategy can have the biggest long term impact.

As a simple example, my initial thoughts on your copper situation were to build directly on the copper. Get it online quickly, forget about the production of that city, because with all those hills and no food it's going to stink no matter where you put it. However, as you discovered, a more detailed analysis shows that by moving it a couple tiles west you can pick up two food resources and turn that into a pretty decent city. And since you're working toward Stonehenge, it doesn't matter that you need the city to expand before copper and sheep become available.
 
My first thought on this was that you should have moved down to that hill, still had the resources on the culture pop and bought yourself the defense of the hill. I figured with the extra gold and hammer of the hill, you'd stillknock out bhudism, but I tried it, and you don't, so I'm just gonna say good job, and I'm enjoying the read.

BTW, when I played your start, the second goody hut, up on the north western coastal corner gave me Animal Husbandry.
 
merandaBlue said:
My first thought on this was that you should have moved down to that hill, still had the resources on the culture pop and bought yourself the defense of the hill. I figured with the extra gold and hammer of the hill, you'd stillknock out bhudism, but I tried it, and you don't, so I'm just gonna say good job, and I'm enjoying the read.

BTW, when I played your start, the second goody hut, up on the north western coastal corner gave me Animal Husbandry.
Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ. Just out of curiousity last night I re-played the start exactly as you describe: move the Settler to the Plains hill, found the capital on the next turn. Same results: Ghandi beat me to Buddhism (I played just long enough to make sure it was him) and the NW hut popped AH. I popped the other huts and they were also different. Only the first one remained the same, but I popped it with the Scout on the first turn again.

Isn't that interesting? One little change and the AI civs and the huts change too; in the original game which I will continue here, Ghandi went for Polytheism/Hinduism instead, allowing me to get Buddhism. That sort of complexity is what I love about this game.

Mutineer, City 2 has indeed been founded. Your chosen location for it is where I originally was going to place it. Tyrant, however, convinced me to put it where it is now.

So Tyrant, if I lose this game, it will clearly be your fault. ;)
 
(3rd Round: to 775 BC)

More progress, a disappointment, complications, and some very important decisions to make. I'll really appreciate everyone's input, as I think I'm at a critical juncture.

First, the summary and highlights.

Thinking no one else would have copper on such a big continent was obviously a pipe dream, as the next turn proved:



Tyrant was bang-on with his suspicions; St. Pete is in that far-from-ideal location just to get copper. Whoa, deja vu...

A disappointment: someone beat me to Monotheism and Judaism!



I didn't see the Star of David appear by any of the known Civs' names, not that it's a guaranteed indicator...but I know there must be at least one other continent out there with two other civs, so I suspect it's one of them. Probably whoever I ticked off by snagging Buddhism. I have a nagging suspicion that it's Mansa who's out there somewhere, getting a tech lead already, and planning his space ship...

I looked back at my tech pursuits to see if I could have done better. I think everyone will agree that Agriculture was a necessity, as was Masonry, which is, in fact, a pre-req for Monotheism. So how did I lose it?

Ironically, it was winning Buddhism that did it.

If I had gone for Polytheism/Hinduism, I would at least have had Monotheism's direct prerequisite. But researching it--or, more accurately, researching Meditation first instead of Polytheism--cost me Judaism. I guess it's a fair swap, I gained one religion and lost another. Still, it's something I'll remember the next time I go religion hunting: go after Poly, and if you miss Hinduism, bee-line to Mono for Judaism. You might even be able to go back and pick up Meditation/Buddhism.

But that's food for thought for another game. Back to this one.

Work on Stonehenge progressed. Hooking up the quarry reduced the last few required turns from 6 to 3. Not much, but I'm going to walk away thinking they made the difference:



Well, that certainly made up for the Judaism disappointment! Completing Stonehenge was becoming pretty crucial to my strategy, so it was a relief to see that I'd done it.

After I finished researching Monotheism (no, I didn't give up on it--explanation later), I switched to military techs: Iron Working first for Jaguars, then Archery for defense. I have two sources of Iron, one in each of my first two cities' fat crosses! They're not required for Jaguars, but the mines will certainly help production.

I also built City #3 (Tlatelolco--I'm thinking of changing all their names so I can tell them apart). Thanks to Stonehenge, its border expanded quickly to include the copper; the mine is almost complete. I'd built a second Worker and used him to run a road all the way to City 3, since it will allow units built there to get to where they're needed in the South faster. This is probably the last worker I'll build; I plan to capture all the others...

Besides the Worker, I also built Barracks in all three cities. I probably wouldn't have normally until a little later, but I had a few turns' wait while I researched Iron Working and got the copper hooked up. So things are looking good for that early war.

So here is how the Aztec empire looks at 750 BC, which is where I left off:



Yes, that's a barbarian city over there to the southwest of Tlatelolco! XPs for the first troops, and a few gold coins to boot. I'm sending my two brand-spankin' new Jaguars up there to kick some barbarian butt.

You can probably also tell that I researched Animal Husbandry (for the sheep near Tlatelolco), and discovered not one but TWO sources of Horses near the capital!

So I'm researching Pottery.

"Uh...say what?" I hear you cry.

Take a look at my tech chart:



Notice something? I've kind of been ignoring the upper branch--the earlier civilian techs. And my two new cities are starting to cost me gold. Not much, I can stay at 100% research for a while yet, but that -3 in red reminded me that I plan on having an empire to manage pretty soon. So I'm setting aside both military and religious techs for awhile to pursue the following tech path: Pottery, Writing, Alphabet, Priesthood, Code of Laws.

In need Pottery for cottages, DUH, which I better get started on in the near future. In need writing for Open Borders. I need Alphabet to tech trade/extort. I need Priesthood because it's a pre-req for Theology and CoL, and I need CoL for courthouses/Forbidden Palace.

So what about Horseback Riding? Frankly, I've never gotten much use out of Horse Archers. Maybe I don't use them properly; feel free to enlighten me. I tend to send them alone into enemy territory to scout and, sometimes, pillage a key resource. But then a Spearman usually rushes and kills them once they've completed maybe one recon/pillage mission, making me wonder why I built them. I'm not a big pillaging fan; even if I raze a city, I'll probably build one nearby later on and benefit from any improvements. Scouting can be done just as effectively, albeit a little more slowly, by a foot unit that can benefit from the terrain's defense bonuses.

So I'll build City #4 on the Ivory tile as planned and it can work the Horse tile, but mounted units aren't a big priority. But I stand to be corrected.

Here are the cities at 750 BC:







Notice the Pyramids in the build queue in the capital? Yeah, I had a few turns after the Barracks were built and before Iron Working was discovered. So I started the 'mids, since it seemed a waste of hammers to build anything else. Even if someone else finishes them, I stand to collect a little extra gold.

But...decisions, decisions, decisions. Methinks it's crunch time, kids, time to separate the Jaguars from the Armadillos...whatever the heck that means.

State Religion: I've been holding off setting Buddhism as my SR, but I'm thinking I should. At this point the only one I'll tick off is Ghandi, and he's #2 on my list anyway. This would give me +2 GPT, +3 when it spreads to Tlatelolco, and stop me bleeding gold for awhile.

I should also start thinking about spreading the religion to Peter and Qin. It would keep both of them off my back while I go after Hatty, then Ghandi, and contribute additional gold into my coffers. I wouldn't be surprised if Qin snags Taoism or Confucianism before me and converts, but that's a ways down the road. Peter rarely founds a religion if he has competition, in my experience, so converting him would cement our friendship for a long time...at least until I'm ready to stab him in the back.

("How can you sleep at night?!?" I don't, I'm playing Civilization!)

As for the shrine...

In a few turns, Stonehenge will give me a Great Prophet. I plan on having Writing and Priesthood by then, or waiting until I do if he shows up beforehand, and burning the GP on Theology. I'll get another GP later to build the shrine, but gaining Theology this way would not only mean I found Christianity and get a free missionary. I also access the Theocracy civic and its bonus XPs.

What do you think of that plan?

The Pyramids: I've got stone and they're part-way built, so I have a definite shot at them, and Monty would benefit from having Police State available so early. Even if I fail, it's money in the bank. Should I go for it, or will it hold back my war effort for too many turns?

Trade: With Qin and Peter so far away, it will be some time before we get trade routes hooked up. So what about Fishing and Sailing? I'm thinking of tech trading for them after Alphabet. Whaddya think?

War: Once I deal with barb central, I'll have enough units (5-6) to start going after Hatty. She has obviously expanded. Should I go after her border cities, or rush straight to Thebes? BTW, you may have noticed, she has horses. If she has AH--let's assume she does--she has War Chariots. Probably not many at this point. How big a concern is her UU? And notice that Axemen JUST became available. Should I switch exclusively to them, or continue to mix them with Jaguars?

Expansion: How high a priority is City #4? Construction and War Elephants are a ways off, as is Calendar. Those Horses, though...

Happiness: The capital is about to reach its limit on this. I could avoid growth by switching working the wheat tile for one of the riverside grasslands (where I could build my first cottage). Should I do that, or grow the population and whip them for units?

As always in this exercise, I look forward to and appreciate your input.
 
Sisiutil said:
("How can you sleep at night?!?" I don't, I'm playing Civilization!)
LOL! That's me. :)

When I have axemen, I use one axeman per city for defense and wait to trade for archery since it is a dead-end tech. Most units that will be sent to attack your cities are going to be melee, so axemen substitute really well for archers, allowing those early tech turns to be spent elsewhere. Having copper available for axemen, IW wasn't really necessary for Jaguars, but it will be usefull for chopping that jungle.

Stonehenge, YES! Barracks in all three cities, YES! Things are shaping up nicely. Animal Husbandry was a good choice, and I agree with Pottery. I'm with you on the horses. I've seen others do well with horse archers, but the way I play I get better use out of the early foot soldiers, and that also means more streamlined tech pursuits.

I'm used to playing Monarch games, and on Monarch I have to prioritize Priesthood if I'm going to get the Oracle built before anyone else. If this were a Monarch game, I would research Priesthood immediately after Pottery and start building the Oracle ASAP (I never manage to snag the Pyramids and have learned to stop trying). This is a Prince game, though. I'm not sure how much time you've got on a Prince game to go after Priesthood, so your current line-up of techs to research could be good. On Monarch, it is possible to do a CoL slingshot, but I've never gotten a CS slingshot. On Prince, you might have time to wait and pull off a CS slingshot.

Regardless of when you do get Priesthood, you'll have to decide whether or not to build it in the capital. Having both Stonehenge and the Oracle in the same city means earlier GP, but it also practically guarantees you a string of nothing but Great Prophets. This can be very beneficial in the beginning, but the effect is felt for most of the game. By spreading them out, you can use specialists later on to increase the odds of getting other GP types when you want them. More Great Prophets early on, or fewer now for more flexibility later. It all really depends on your overall strategy, but either way can be good.

Oh, and I heartily agree with changing the city names. Not only are they difficult for native-English speakers, but they are too long to allow suffixes. I'll often put suffixes on the end of my city names to remind me what that city is for. For instance, I'll add "IWRC" to the end of a city name to remind me not to build national wonders there, because that city is destined for IronWorks/Red Cross. The long Aztec names make this impossible.

Okay, I'm sleepy right now, and not at my Civ computer, but I don't think converting to Buddhism at this point will give you money. It would give +1 Happiness to each Buddhist city. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. I agree that burning the Great Prophet for Theology would be better than going for a shrine at this point.

Agh! Work calls. More later.
 
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