ALC Game 11 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Hannibal

Sisiutil

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All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #11 - Carthage/Hannibal



In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Hannibal, leader of Carthage. This thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, the difficulty level will be Monarch, the map will be continents, the speed normal, all other settings at their defaults.

Huh? Carthage? What gives? You all thought Japan was next, right? Then again, you might remember be discussing this possibility at the end of the ALC game 10 thread, so maybe it's not a complete surprise.

First off, many of you have been asking me to play an ALC as one of the new leaders in Warlords. Going alphabetically as I was, after Japan/Tokugawa, Korea/Wang Kon would have been the first new leader--and aelf is currently playing a EMC game with him. So I didn't want to have that much overlap between our two series. I'll get to Wang, but long after aelf is done with him.

Second, it's no coincidence that I mention aelf and his EMC series, which I've been following and enjoying. aelf is builder at heart, and he's been expressing some frustration following the Warlords patch that there seems to be an even greater emphasis on war being required to keep up. I wanted to test that out (to an extent--aelf is playing on Emperor, after all, and I'm on Monarch). And frankly, I've been getting a little tired of the whole conquer-my-continent-and-choose-my-victory-condition pattern I've been following. Hannibal struck me as the best of the new leaders to try a different, (slightly) more peaceful overall strategy.

Mind you, I'm not ruling out warring; I'd just like to use it in a more discriminating fashion--more as a tactic than an overall strategy. I'm interested in warring early to get my civ the territory it needs, which is practically a requirement; then playing a mostly peaceful game after that, relying on cottages, the financial trait, and my hard-won gains to see me through. So we'd be looking at a cultural, diplomatic, or space race win, methinks. I could see myself mainly using my military in the mid and late game for pillaging to slow down an opponent rather than a lot of conquering. That might be an interesting alternate strategy to try out, and I may also try to take on a vassal for the first time.

Anyway, I think Hannibal is a worthwhile detour--I'll probably get back on the anal retentive alphabetical track after this game, with Tokugawa and Japan. ;)

So let's get down to brass tacks. Here's the fact sheet:
  • Traits: Financial and Charismatic
  • Starting Techs: Fishing and Mining
  • Unique Unit: Numidian Cavalry (Replaces Horse Archer; Strength: 5, Movement: 2, Cost: 50; Unique characteristics: +50% versus melee units, starts with Flanking I)
  • Unique Building: Cothon (Replaces Harbor; Cost: 100; Unique abilities: +1 trade route)

Hannibal has an early UU, Numidian Cavalry, so that lends itself to early warring, leaving later wars optional. Then again, the UU doesn't impress me too much--it has the Jaguar curse of being weaker than the unit it replaces. Speaking of which, I never build many Horse Archers anyway; they're just not that impressive. However, Numidian Cavalry start with Flanking I--does that mean Sentry is available as an initial promotion? If so, then they could be VERY useful for fog-busting. I also like having a couple of Flanking I/Sentry units to move with a stack and give them some extended vision. In addition, several early NC, actively campaigning and earning promotions, can be later upgraded to Knights, then Cavalry, then Gunships, with all those cheap promotions intact! And if I'm talking about war as a tactic instead of a strategy, pillaging makes sense, and mounted units are very good for that. In any case, I always try to make the most out of the UU, so HBR, Stables, and Numidian Cavalary will be priorities; Guilds and Military Tradition may also be high on my list of priority techs. Any further suggestions on how to best use the UU will be most appreciated.

Certainly, some warring makes sense to take advantage of the Charismatic trait, specifically, its -25% XP requirement for promotions. It's too bad the power rating doesn't consider promotions; otherwise I'd be guaranteed the path of warring early and playing peacefully for the rest of the game. We'll still need a strong military, as always, but it will take fewer battles to get them the promotions they need--in a way, that should also mean that less warring is required. I don't have to fight as many battles with Macemen, for example, to get them to the cherished City Raider III promotion.

The trait also provides +1 happy citizen in each city, and and additional happy citizen from monuments and broadcast towers. I think that makes Stonehenge and, later, the Eiffel Tower target wonders for Hannibal, since each will provide those buildings in all cities (and the Eiffel Tower can get built before broadcast towers are even available!). Mysticism and Radio, then, will also be priority techs.

And what is there to be said about Financial that hasn't already been said ad nauseam? This will be a cottage economy game, and frankly, I'm more comfortable with those. One interesting quirk: Hannibal is the only leader who doesn't have a cheap building or unit thanks to his traits! It's a good thing he's Financial.

He also starts with Mining, which is another distinct advantage, giving us a big leg up on getting Bronze Working--which will likely be the first tech researched. I'm thinking of giving the Great Wall a pass, by the way--I think I'll want barbs coming by so my units can start earning those cheap promotions. With Animal Husbandry being a little out of the way, I think I may be going the vanilla route of relying on Axemen for early defense. Then again, we need Animal Husbandry for HBR and the UU... hmmm...

Now what about the Unique Building, the Cothon? It adds a trade route--but why is it so much more expensive than a harbour? More trade routes also mean we'll want a fairly peaceful game, and we'll want Economics for Free Trade and Astronomy for intercontinental trade routes as early as possible. My old target of Liberalism for Astronomy will probably make a lot of sense. We'll also want good relations with other civs to convince them to switch to Free Trade. Again, I think you can see why I thought Hannibal was well-suited to a peaceful game.

Between the UB and the Fishing starting tech, let's keep our fingers crossed for a coastal start. Whether we get it or not, we'll be hoping to build several coastal cities, so let's also hope the map generator cooperates and gives us some good locations for them with plenty of seafood. I'm also thinking that if the Oracle is a possibility, then Metal Casting followed by the Colossus would be a worthwhile path to follow. And what about the Temple of Artemis? And the Great Lightouse? Should we try to max out trade routes, or is that too many hammers going into too many wonders for too little gain?

Phew! A lot to think about. People have been telling me Hannibal is a popular leader, though I haven't seen much discussion of him on the boards. The most popular civs (Rome, England, Russia, India), after all, are usually the ones with an awesome UU, and Hannibal's is not that impressive. But I look forward to trying to get the most out of it, and out of the rest of his characteristics as well.

I look forward to your suggestions and comments...
 
A very simple way to take advantage of his specific traits and UB is emphasizing trade routes. Coastal start (or at least second city on coast) is essential to this, as it allows you to build the Great Lighthouse which gives 2! trade routes to coastal cities. Add to that the cothon's +50% and extra trade route, and you've basically got a great supplement to the cottage economy.

Plus coastal cities are waaaay better with a financial civ. So there's that trait thing poking its head around.

Plus, this encourages some peacefulness (as well as an astronomy beeline -- from liberalism, anyone?) as foreign trade routes are essential.

Did I mention I love this guy?
 
i dont think the ToA is worth it becaus eyou dont want to copy aelfs "EMC 3 the trade route game" do you maybe try a different map like islands or something and make a navy based game Hmmm that sounds like a better plan for ragnar though
 
First of all, a happy new year to all, and especially to our multi-faced leader, Sisiutil!

Now that this is done, lets get to the critique... :D

...
I think that makes Stonehenge ....... target wonders for Hannibal...
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I'm also thinking that if the Oracle is a possibility, then Metal Casting followed by the Colossus would be a worthwhile path to follow. And what about the Temple of Artemis? And the Great Lighthouse?
...

Whoa... Time out! This is just the way I got my behind handed to me in a few of my last games. Going for wonders while not being Industrious, or even going for too many wonders because I had the resources.

I'd say Stonehenge is definitely useful, and I hope you'll get it too. Going Bronze Working -> Mysticism is likely to net it since the AI doesn't seem to prioritize it that much.

On the other hand you'll need something for your workers to do as you'll only have mining and cutting trees. That means that you'll most probably delay Priesthood for a while, and in a couple of my games it meant I hadn't even started building the Oracle that somebody else finished it. Of course if you have marble nearby that might be another story, but that would mean beelining for it to the expense of worker techs.

With a cost of 400 hammers if you don't have marble you can also completely forget about Temple of Artemis. If you do manage to get some coastal cities you can think of building the Great Lighthouse, but not in a capital that's already built Stonehenge and maybe the Oracle, you won't have any trees left there if it's coastal.

Not sure what to say about the Colossus. It'd mean to get the Oracle -> Metal Casting shot of course, so you'd never be in danger of someone else building it very soon, but on the other hand you need a forge in that city and that won't be cheap.

Remember aelf was industrious in his game and even got a Great Engineer to help him with ToA. You'd be in no position to follow his wonder feats.

-----

And tomorrow I'll dig up my Hannibal game and see if I remember how it played out. I do remember not making much use of his UU though. Can't wait to see how you use it for pillaging, which after all seems like its best (and only?) use. And yes, it can receive Sentry as a first promotion.
 
Yeah, I tried a trade route economy similar to Aelf's in EMC with Hannibal and found myself stuck after chopping my first wonder since Han isn't Ind. If you wanna try a trade route econ, which would benefit from being on good terms with alot of the AI's and Hannibal's awesome (imo) building, I'd stick with just the GL rather than trying the ToA too. +3 trade routes in coastal cities is nothing to laugh about, and if you can pick up The Colossus later, I think it'll gave a greater overall effect than ToA, as well as being more outta the way and, hence, less likely to be snagged by the AI while you get the GL. So I'd say get the Henge, then the GL, and the Colossus if the game lends itself to that approach (I mean, who knows, Monty might be in your backyard).

As for his UU, even though its -1 str penalty does hamper it, for using it to pillage, you've overlooked a crucial bonus in the +50% vs. Melee. Fl 1/Sent and Str1/Shock cavalry stacks can really rock up the pillaging when spears are the only counters. 'phants and pikes change this, obviously, but I find that his horses can stand up to those pesky spearmen way better than normal horses.

p.s. Sisiutil - Your Hannibal link links to Wikipedia on Asoka btw. might wanna change that.
 
If you want to take advantage of Hannibal's UU for early warring, you need to know fairly quickly where you can get horses.

I've played a few games as the Mongols where horses were very far from my capital; it's kind of disappointing to finally get your UU going but it's so late that it's basically useless.

This could be a good game to test the usefulness of the UU; I almost never build Horse Archers.
 
Since Hannibal is a leader who's best suited for coastal cities, how about trying an Archipelago map? That way you are all but guaranteed a coastal start.

Besides...Continents every time is getting boring. :p
 
Nums sound cool for insta-barb-farmed mobile hospitals, if you remember the other thread where we talked about my preference for mounted units as medics rather than the spearmen/etc you use. starting with flanking 1 and being charismatic lets you get sentry/combat1/medic1 with just 8 exp. and their +50% vs. melee units (on both attack and defense going by the pedia's wording) would help you earn that all from barbs early on. get to 13 exp later and grab medic 2, you have line-of-sight mobile hospitals that can heal split stacks (like some in a city you razed or captured/some stuck on the tile they attacked from with no movement left) that will help you all game long. as mentioned there, i like to keep them at least an era behind my real units (even as financial when money for upgrades isn't a big deal), so that they're not chosen to defend if the SOD gets attacked.

this advice of course applies to only a few of the Nums. you might actually want, like, a few mounted units eventually that are maybe kinda sorta strong enough to kill stuff someday *giggle*.

as far as calculating hammers invested in wonders, keep in mind the techs you're likely going to beeline for. astronomy will obsolete Colossus. so even if the map is friendly as far as many nice juicy coastal spots, Colossus might still have a quite limited time of usefulness.

economics for FM is great but once you get corporation, Great Lighthouse goes away. i've had games where the freebie +1 trade routes in all cities actually decreased my income due to losing the GL bonus, since i had more harbored coastal cities than inland ones. you'd not lose the cothon's bonus there tho so it may all balance out, i dunno. and corporation is often delayable depending on how the game is going.
 
The only problem with Medic II is that it would only help units who can heal that turn - that means they either haven't performed an action or have the March promotion. March is out that early, and if your troops outside the city haven't acted that turn they're probably not wounded and could move in the city anyway to protect it against attacks. The only reason I'd go for Medic II would be to get Medic III with a Great General, but I usually don't spend more than one GG on this.

As for obsoleting wonders, I wouldn't worry about Corporation just now. :D Astronomy/Colossus might be a problem. But I can see a Liberalism -> Nationalism shot if he doesn't want to obsolete Colossus.
 
i just like the sentry/medic 2 combo since particularly in early-midgame wars i can tell the bad guys aren't gonna come after me the next turn so they can all sit and heal at least one turn *after* that turn before moving on. but it is situational, and everybody has their preferences. and medic 3, <3. i've had one in every game since i made the first one with a GG i got too late to do anything i'd usually do with him.

yeah corporation is a ways off, those were just thoughts. astronomy tho can be a big one. i've often delayed the tech to keep colossus, particularly when running merc, which wouldn't apply for this game.
 
Thanks for the reminders about which techs obsolete which wonders. I rarely build the wonders I mentioned (Great Lighthouse in particular, and I've never built the Temple of Artemis), so I'm not usually aware of that.

And a good point about Hannibal not being Industrious. As I started listing wonders, I started thinking I was just going to be wasting hammers--which I mentioned, I think. I'll probably play the rounds more slowly than I have in the past (with the exception of the Asoka game) to make sure I don't get myself in trouble with these unfamiliar wonders.

And also thanks for the reminder than Spearmen are melee units, making them a less effective counter to the NCs. That's probably why the strength was lowered to 5, for balance--otherwise you'd have a Horse Archer with no effective counter whatsoever.

I myself am not fond of Medic II, but I usually use my first Great General to get that Medic III unit, so that will probably be a feature of this game. A mobile Medic III unit is also great for defense, able to move quickly to whatever city in your empire is under attack.

And HorsemasterK, thanks for the catch on Hannibal's Wikipedia link. :blush: It's now fixed. That's what I get for copying and pasting. At least we're not staring at Asoka's mug at the top of the page!
 
Thanks for the multiple honourable mentions ;) :p

It's kind of funny how Numinidian Cavalry is made 1 strength weaker in the game, considering Hannibal's success was a lot due to their superiority on the battlefield. For balance reasons, I suppose, as Sisiutil has pointed out. But still, history may provide a clue on their use. Somebody mentioned using them to pillage the enemy, and I think you should do so, just as the great general did. Build stables and give them Combat I and Shock right off the bat (of course, you may want a few Sentries). It seems like a waste of their free Flanking I, but this way the enemy cannot effectively counter your pillaging Numidians. The few Flanking-promoted ones can attack units guarding key resources. Go for their ivory and horses first (since elephants and horse archers are the best counter to your UU). Re-enact Hannibal's long campaign in Italy.

I hope you feature this interesting unit in your early wars.
 
sisuitil,

I've played a couple of games as hannibal.. charismatic being one of my fav traits.

I do hope you abuse the crap out of his UB, combined with the great lighthouse.. grab it if you can. until it obsoletes you can have 4 trade routes per coastal city and +50% yield.

and it gets crazy rediculous when you hook up the other continent.. even without the TOA. if you can also bag the colossus so much the better.

being both merchant wonders you can set yourself along the merchant tech pop path or benefit from several massive influxes of cash.

his UU is an axemen on wheels.. though it isnt an effective city killer because the AI always favors archers. but you might find opportunity to strike a couple of cities with them. they also make good siege busters, pillagers, and scouts.

you'll probably find the monument unnessessary unless you're really hurting for :)

good luck with the RNG on your start position, and definately looking forward to the start of the game

NaZ
 
After you announced that Hannibal was potentially the next leader, Sisiutil, I played three consecutive games with Carthage, though on a Snaky Continents Archipelago map. Except for Oracle, I'd definitely say that shooting for the Lighthouse and Colossus as your only early wonders, and spend those hammers on a military. You'll want everyone except your first victim to be friendly with you, and nothing garners the AIs attention like a decent power rating. And if they still don't like you, then you can get their attention another way . . .

Another pitfall in the later game is that Mercantalism is now a favorite with the AIs, as they factor in specialists more than before. At one point every civ on the planet besides me was running it-- not a very happy discovery, after spending all that effort to build up a trade network. Giving away Economics as a gift might help, but the other leaders may still need a little prodding to shift civics. YMMV, but thought it worth throwing out, since this discussion is looking long term.

One things for sure, money won't be an issue if you build the Lighthouse. I think I popped six Great Merchants in one game. Settling or trade missions, you won't be strapped for $$$ for many turns. I even Lightbulbed a few GMs, just because they seemed to be coming out my ears for a while. You manage GP points better than I do, but if you want Merchants, they won't be nearly as hard to get as normally.

As for the UU . . in three games I had my usual rotten luck with Horse placements, and recall only building about four. They might be worth it now that Stables have been added, but this may be the first ALC where the UU was more or less ignored, or else built just to see the graphics. Hopefully you'll get lucky and have Horses nearby, just so I can see what it can do in the right hands.

Should be a good game, and highly informative as always. Thank you again for taking the time and effort to do such a thorough job on these ALCs.
 
the only thing i dislike about pillaging is an obvious one: that if you keep their cities, you have to build up all the improvements, but if you raze their cities it is no problem
 
WOHOO NEW ALC!!!

Wonders.... I guess it's up to the map, who knows you may end up with Marble and Stone in your Capital's fat cross and Pickup Mansonry, Sailing and Metal Casting from a goody huts LMAO!

That or you become isolated on your own Island far way from other AIs like in your Inca game the you don't have to build any Military units except to combat Barbs.

But if you don;t end up with the best of circumstances, you'd have to choose your wonders. Stonehedge is a must, free culture and happiness wto every city and it's cheap why not?

TOA... build only if the curcumstances allow it, eg-marble and plenty of forest to chop. If your lucky your next door neighbour will build it for you.

If you end up with hungry building industrious civs wanting wonders in this game, you'd have to choose between great lighthouse or Oracle/Collossus.

If you choose great lighthouse, I'd say beeline to Compass if the circumstance allow it after IW, Early compass is good for trading, Early Explorer's are good at defending your SODs in War when on defensive Terrain they get G1 and W1 as free promotions and allows you to build your UB.

Oracle Slignshot... this is between choosing Old Route or New route, Personally I'm a little tired of the same old reliable Metal Casting Slighshot, Good tech to trade with, Early Forges for production and happiness etc.

Depending on the Map and which strategy you'll play.

If you start near the coast, have gems/gold/silver nearby and have the production to build the Collossus, by all means go for the metal casting slingshot.

BUT if you don't start near the coast, have none of the pre clanader happiness resources (excludes Ivory) and have HORSES nearby I'd say take the Oracle slignshot to Horseback Riding for Early UU Pillaging or rushing.

For the Liberalism Slignshot, I Say go for Economics IF you End up building the Collossus, if you don't Astronomy is the better tech.

Why Economics? Free GM and Makes Free Trade Civic Avaliable but remember to research Banking as it is a required tech.

I think that all I Wanted to say... Yip that's all Looking towards to your next ALC
 
A lot depends on the map as kniteowl's said.

If you end up with a lot of coast around, ToA plus GL plus Colossus turns Hannibal into a monster, but that's an awful lot of hammers to sink into wonders early on if you don't have marble and copper available.

I've played quite a few builder-happy monarch games since the patch, and you only need 6 cities to win a space race by about 1900 assuming you can snag sufficient resources. The best general approach to a largely peaceful game would be to annexe one neighbour in time to get universities and banks quickly built in their cities as soon as those techs are discovered, cottage-spam everywhere and watch your GNP soar away from the AI (provided you don't have someone like Huyana going nuts on the other continent - the culture bonus from the terrace makes him a monster now). You can get by without any wonders at all, although obviously there are several that'll be helpful along the way.
 
Pillaging wars are a blast. It's refreshing to go nuts with a little stack instead of managing ones that are capable of taking cities. A stack of two combat 1/shock
Numidians and one sentry seems capable of a steady one farm per turn-rate almost regardless of possible defenders.

Let's pray to the RNG gods that we'll see a lot of water.
 
You've all mentioned going for loads of early wonders: ToA, Gr8 Lighthouse, Oracle, Stonehenge & The Collosus. Whilst i would try to get some of these don't go over the top on wonders. If you've got marble or stone then go for the appropriate ones. I think that the ToA requires an awful lot of early hammers for what it provides.

I'd certainly go for a war with your UU, but it depends how many cities you can place peacefully as to whether you want a pillaging war or one where you take some cities. I've won quite a few space race victories on large monarch maps without ever entering into a serious war. (Wouldn't recommend doing that though.)
 
When Im Hannibal I give the UU flanking I and II. Iire they'll have almost a 50&#37; withdraw chance with this. Its more bang for the buck. Plus with stables and charismatic's xp bonus you'll have them at lvl 4 very quickly to give them combat I.
 
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