Worst wonder?

Cristo Redentor is also very useful when your ally (permanent alliance) isn't spiritual.
The AIs love to switch between US <-> HR and SP <-> Environmentalism.

King Flevance said:

I have never needed to be that creative for an endgame win. I play Prince and Monarch. By the time that the CR rolls around if my victory isn't already achieved, I am mopping up. If you exclude Corps and shrines, there are about 30 wonders in the game. I would not rank CR in the top half.
Deterring AI can be done by other means. Just because something is great on Immortal does not mean it holds its strength at lower levels. And if I play at Prince/Monarch and claim that the CR is not worthwhile, it is perfectly valid.

All of these convoluted schemes involving the CR are situational. IF the ai has an unassailable [by other means] co-op going on. IF you need to anti-war/ [start] ai-ai wars/ eliciting votes at the perfect time before an election. I rarely run across problems that can't be solved without it. I will admit it is possible a couple games out of many could have went another way with these schemes. But not enough to make it "top tier easily".

Just because TMIT disagrees does not mean that my opinion is worthless.

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I was trying to be ironic, because your initial defense for the argument "CR isn't a good wonder" is "I never use this in the game so it sucks".

Rather than attempt some other means, you simply repeated yourself here.

If you engineer settings a certain way and/or play under your level routinely, you can make almost any game option seem terrible (try axe rushing on deity/quick. Axe rushing must SUCK, worst tactic possible...just as much logic as you're applying to CR).

If you don't like CR because it doesn't suit your blowouts, that's fine. And as an opinion, you can dislike SE. However, your argument *is* worthless if you're simply basing that on your opinion.

I stayed away from the micro gimmicks and "mere" giving into civic/religious requests and diving back out of them. On the higher difficulties, diplo can matter. Getting locked into an undesirable war can matter. Those things can cost you enough turns to lose...maybe not on a difficulty where you can blow the game out, but on higher ones yes.

And then, how do you evaluate the worst wonder? CR is significantly ahead of SE on *all* levels, so rating it bottom is a little :/.

CR is admittedly worse in MP, but still probably not bottom just because the space elevator still exists and you can still EP cheese humans into bad civics.

My arguement is not "I never use this in the game so it sucks", it is "I never see it matter enough, I see it as a situational benefit wonder." Everything CR can do that have been stated in this thread, other actions can do as well. Like declaring war, bribing an AI to war earlier, work on your diplomatic playfield sooner, etc. Very rarely do I find myself backed into a corner so much so that I must rely on the CR to pull me out of it in the last turns of the game. This is situational strategy and as far as I see the defense for CR is "It has uses" not "It is top tier easily".

TheMeInTeam said:

If you engineer settings a certain way and/or play under your level routinely, you can make almost any game option seem terrible (try axe rushing on deity/quick. Axe rushing must SUCK, worst tactic possible...just as much logic as you're applying to CR).

If you don't like CR because it doesn't suit your blowouts, that's fine. And as an opinion, you can dislike SE. However, your argument *is* worthless if you're simply basing that on your opinion.

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I am not playing below my difficulty, well, Prince yeah but Monarch no. I may be playing below YOUR difficulty level as you feel the need to constantly throw in front of everyone in these arguements often. And like your opinion is based on fact? The whole point of this thread not only can be viewed as opinion originated but the subject at hand is situational. So it basically comes down to it is opinionated.

I am not basing my arguement soley on my opinion. I have seen why you guys say it is "easily top tier" and I disagree. I think it is easily lower tier as it is a situational wonder at best.

I stayed away from the micro gimmicks and "mere" giving into civic/religious requests and diving back out of them. On the higher difficulties, diplo can matter. Getting locked into an undesirable war can matter. Those things can cost you enough turns to lose...maybe not on a difficulty where you can blow the game out, but on higher ones yes.

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I can't help but see [you nub] as a big paraphrase for this paragraph. I bow to your superiority at difficulty level TMIT.

How about we quit posting "What is the best" threads and just address TMIT directly?

Angkor Wat= +1 Gold for 1500Hammers? It must be a joke!

My arguement is not "I never use this in the game so it sucks", it is "I never see it matter enough, I see it as a situational benefit wonder." Everything CR can do that have been stated in this thread, other actions can do as well. Like declaring war, bribing an AI to war earlier, work on your diplomatic playfield sooner, etc. Very rarely do I find myself backed into a corner so much so that I must rely on the CR to pull me out of it in the last turns of the game. This is situational strategy and as far as I see the defense for CR is "It has uses" not "It is top tier easily".

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So in other words, "I don't use it in my game so it is the worst wonder, or one of the worst". Gotcha.

I am not playing below my difficulty, well, Prince yeah but Monarch no. I may be playing below YOUR difficulty level as you feel the need to constantly throw in front of everyone in these arguements often.

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Go ahead and copy/paste all the times I mentioned the difficulty I play (which ranges from odd noble forum games to deity) outside of this post. See how often I actually use my play level as the basis for an argument.

It was relevant that I did so in the post you quoted, just as much it was relevant for you to tell everyone *your* difficulty. Don't get ahead of yourself. The fact that CR is relevant on settings other than the ones you play *is* relevant...except maybe to you. But this thread isn't about "worst wonder with King Flevance's settings", it's about "worst wonder". You'd have to consider all settings to a degree then, or at least ones people play.

There are only a few wonders in this game that can abusively change the outcome by themselves, such as the AP, UN, GLH on some maps, etc. CR is behind that tier, but still up there, because in some games it lets you cost-effectively do things that you'd not be able to execute otherwise with the civic/religion swapping.

I am not basing my arguement soley on my opinion. I have seen why you guys say it is "easily top tier" and I disagree. I think it is easily lower tier as it is a situational wonder at best.

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The overwhelming majority of wonders in the game are situational, at best. Actually, other than the Apostolic Palace in games where you're trying to win via AP diplo victory, ALL of the wonders are situational. Yes, even UN, because sometimes it's advantageous to let someone else build it.

Even powerhouses that didn't make the list like great lighthouse and pyramids can be ruinously poor choices.

I can't help but see [you nub] as a big paraphrase for this paragraph. I bow to your superiority at difficulty level TMIT.

How about we quit posting "What is the best" threads and just address TMIT directly?

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Good jokes. Especially coming from someone who cites their own difficulty/settings (which are just as important as difficulty) as a valid reason to support a wonder as worst. If you can do that, so can I, and I don't need anything special to call you on it.

Oh, and one more thing:

I have never needed to be that creative for an endgame win

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Is awfully high and mighty, for you to then turn around and tell me you don't play below your difficulty.

Whoa, getting hot in here... But seriously people who is madscientist? And what is RPC?

SickFak said:

Whoa, getting hot in here... But seriously people who is madscientist? And what is RPC?

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Mad is a guy who host a series of stories, the Role Play Challenges RPC for short, that are meant to entertain and inform. In the stories he sets limits and special conditons for himself depending on who he is playing as. For example if he played Abe Lincoln he would probably do something like not adopting slavery and beelining democracy for emancipation.

Angkor Wat= +1 Gold for 1500Hammers? It must be a joke!

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I do hope your comment about it being a joke.... is the joke. But I fear you were being serious.

It's +1 hammers (not gold) for ALL priests in ALL cities. It also adds some GPTs and unlocks more priest slots in the city. There's a few other things you missed entirely but I'm not going to waste any more text getting into that.

SickFak said:

Whoa, getting hot in here... But seriously people who is madscientist? And what is RPC?

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As CaesarPlayer said. he's a player who posts Role Playing Challenges to follow along. They are quite entertaining and I reccomend them. He might ban Slavery and force environmentalism. He might try to run a pure Espionage game. Once as the Vikings, he disallowed Libraries and Universities. He has a humerous way of writing that's very entertaining. Look them up and see what you think.

Question relating to what I'm seeing written. In an OCC endgame, I was switching out of Representation, rushing a building or wonder, and then going back into Rep on the same turn. Is this supposed to be possible?

An interesting spin-off thread would be, in real life, which wonder is the lamest.

Space Elevator would have to be omitted of course, since it has yet to be built...

kochman said:

An interesting spin-off thread would be, in real life, which wonder is the lamest.

Space Elevator would have to be omitted of course, since it has yet to be built...

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Which is a shame, because I bet in real life a space elevator would look (and be) awesome.

Similar to culture cities however I'm afraid that might get personal for some people.

A vote for the Three Gorges Dam? Really?

bestbrian said:

A vote for the Three Gorges Dam? Really?

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Not to mention 3 for the Taj Mahal and 4 for Stonehenge?

Well, Stonehenge does suck, but it is really really cheap so you get what you paid for.

By that logic, Hagia-Sophia must be a killer wonder..

Stonehenge is pretty nice if you're playing a charismatic leader or the Native Americans. It's also good if you're not a Creative leader.

I really can't bad mouth The Hag; it's just a very situational wonder. Current game, Marathon speed, I got a sweet start (4 gems anyone?), and all the land around me is green, criss-crossed by rivers, and easily blocked off at two chokepoints, so it's all mine to fill in as I please (about 12 cities worth, thank you very much). The bad part? It's mostly grown over with jungle.

This situation was made for The Hag.

Ataxerxes said:

As CaesarPlayer said. he's a player who posts Role Playing Challenges to follow along. They are quite entertaining and I reccomend them. He might ban Slavery and force environmentalism. He might try to run a pure Espionage game. Once as the Vikings, he disallowed Libraries and Universities. He has a humerous way of writing that's very entertaining. Look them up and see what you think.

Question relating to what I'm seeing written. In an OCC endgame, I was switching out of Representation, rushing a building or wonder, and then going back into Rep on the same turn. Is this supposed to be possible?

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Yeah I've read some of his works already.

Wait, switching in and out on the same turn?

The Space Elevator isn't the worst if you're get the free great engineer from fusion. Great engineers can't rush space ship parts.

Bobbtjoe said:

The Space Elevator isn't the worst if you're get the free great engineer from fusion. Great engineers can't rush space ship parts.

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They can't tech robotics for you, either.

Well, there's always that "robotics from internet when you have 15-20 cities" type argument again.

You might actually be better off founding mining inc or create con.

Say you have 250% spaceship production (very easy, aluminum + lab in addition to normal forge/factory/power). If you have 50 base hammers, the wonder gives you 25. However, a mere 10 hammer mining inc *also* gives you 25.

The bonus for a hammer wonder via a late engineer is that you don't need any non-space techs to reach it. So on top of the fact that merely acquiring robotics puts you behind unless its via internet, you also have to compete with opportunity costs on the engineers one supposedly has around then.

And when the stars align, it still only saves a couple turns, although that is a big change from actively hurting you.

Don't get me wrong though, if that thing weren't around I'd be with all the CI and Hagia Sophia people.