First, for your information, that Joao II map was thrown away for multiple reasons:
Oh, I wasn't speaking of any one particular person or incident. You actually seem like a cool dude and have been cordial and open-minded the whole time. And deity isolation with Joao II sounds like a serious challenge. And by the way, I wouldn't consider trying, falling behind, and then retiring to be a problem (which is what happened on that map). That's just part of learning on any level. I would, however, consider seeing an uncomfortable map and then immediately rerolling it without trying it out to be self-limiting. Maybe you agree.
I guess when I said this strategy might be a niche strategy for some maps I definitely referred to single player. There's no way you can pull this off in MP unless you play 5-year-olds. Do you really expect them to let you get away with not teching BW until you have Liberalism??? Or even Feudalism?
EDIT: I now understand your frenetic need for longbows but they do not enable you to chop or whip, which you will simply need in MP no matter how much forest or food you have.
Well, since these turn-based multiplayer games take so long to finish, we haven't played too many worlds yet, but it is more fun and meaningful to beat humans. And yes, my article is intended for normal, single player maps, or any other scenario where people can extract value from it.
While you come here, and talk about how great your views are and how weak re-rolling makes players.
Rerolling doesn't make players weak. It makes them reinforce their strengths and avoid maps that are uncomfortable or confusing to them.
Well you know what, nobody cares they just show you some interest cos this always happens here, no matter how dumb the posts are.
Repeat: "Mylene...should learn some manners and how to engage in civilized, mature debate."
You mentioned those 1170 beakers again. That assumes no tech trading...Ignoring bottom of the tech tree not only makes you skip some juicy trades, but also leaves you without possibility to broker those techs you traded for.
I never said you couldn't trade techs. There's lots of non-Bronze Working techs you'll want to pick up from the AI before you use that Great Scientist Liberalism bulb (if that is the approach taken). And you can broker them as well. To get Liberalism first in any game, you're most likely going to have to push yourself up there. You're not going to trade up for Liberalism or the techs that precede it. You can trade down to grab portions of other tech lines. Following a direct non-Bronze Working path for your research is the most direct path upwards towards Liberalism, and, if you want to save those 1170 beakers, you should avoid trading specifically for Bronze Working. Feel free to trade for and broker other non-Bronze Working techs.
And how will you backfill on those techs? Trade for them? By that time those techs will be cheap and you will soon hit WFYABTA while your empire will be underdeveloped and won't be able to tech them fast. Also, every new era erases one tech from WFYABTA limit.
I haven't experienced this problem.
You said your strat is for food low starts.
Not exactly. I said that low food starts make slavery less attractive. I can imagine some high food starts where one should also consider avoiding Bronze Working for a bit. High food starts can still sync with the Code of Laws path (specialists) or the Monarchy path (city growth).
If I go culture, I Lib Nationalism for the sake of common sense...With Marble, I'll consider Libbing Nationalism for Taj Mahal.
Now your more versatile side is coming out. Should I assume the earlier comment about Libing a non-military tech having no value was just an exaggeration to try to make your case stronger?
early benefits > late benefits. For example, game in which i had most cottages was the one in which I didn't build a single cottage.
Congratulations on sweeping the map. That must have been a nice score for you.
I know you will not change your mind simply because you invested too much energy into all of this, but for the sake of your better play, consider those tips.
Either that, or you haven't convinced me. And of course, I've never downplayed how useful Bronze Working is on most maps.
You are satisfied with your skill. I am not saying you are a bad player, there are not too many civvers able to beat Immortal. But Immortal is still too forgiving to show you what you did wrong.
Well, since you're winning on Deity and I haven't yet rolled a Deity map, I'm happy to concede that you are most likely an overall better player than me at the moment. But we could also probably agree that I'm better than you were after you had played for 15 months (since you were stuck on Monarchy/Emperor). We're approaching the game differently with different skills sets. I'm not going to stop harnessing some alternative strategies that I've found useful on some Immortal maps just because some existing Deity players get worked up when someone questions their conventional wisdom.
When a deity player re-rolls a start is is almost always going to be because it has a double plains cow glitch with no other food.
It's not a glitch.
But you have yet to take into account how you will get cities past your first built settler.
The options would depend on the shape of the map. I already gave you a relatively basic tip about trying to block off land with the culture from your second city.
Yet you completely ignore the fact that it is the STRONGEST strategy for a reason.
I acknowledge that it is the strongest on about 70% of the maps. And that number is an educated guess on my part.
You will poo poo that as Bronze Working dogma, but that is you being arrogant. You have exhausted way to much energy into this for you to give up now so you are going to continue pushing that you are right, and the best players are wrong.
I'm sorry, do you consider yourself to be one of these "best players"? And I'm the arrogant one? Actually, I think some players better than you have already offered up words of encouragement for thinking outside the box and acknowledged that avoiding Bronze Working might be optimal on some (rare) maps.
Show them in your 20 or so games played you have some how become an infinitely better player than they have in their tens of thousands of games played combined.
Why do you claim to know how many games I've played? You think I'd be winning on Immortal after 20 games? It's hard to have a serious discussion with you. It's much easier and more fruitful to have this strategy debate with those that are capable of making meaningful counter arguments.
I really like how you added an attack on to us in the response to another persons comment. This truly shows me that you are getting your panties in a bunch because you are starting to see that the better players see right through you.
I repeat: "Zx Zero Zx should learn some manners and how to engage in civilized, mature debate." That's not an attack. It's advice. And a request.
Arguments ad hominem are always dull regardless who posts them. I don't see much value in continuing this thread until a game is actually posted to compare relative merits of delaying BW.
Sorry you find it dull. But I do have some real life work to attend to for a week or so and am therefore happy to wait on continuing this discussion/argument until I have some actual time to devote to a new single player game.
I just spotted this thread and the related one in S&T. Thank you, Brennus, for an provocative argument that you have intelligently and pleasantly argued. It's refreshing to see some new ideas, especially advanced by someone who actually understands a bit about the game.
Like UnforcedError, I was willing to give you a bit of slack and consider the possibility that it might be right occasionally. Kudos to her for actually trying it out. Unfortunately, Brennus, I have to say that your detractors have the better case.
I can recall at least one game where I traded for BW instead of researching it myself but that's all about opportunity costs. Actively avoiding it is quite something else. I want it just for the tile yield and dot mapping purposes and, of course, there are far more important reasons. Other folks have already made these points so I won't go over them. I will say that, if I manage to get a GE in the early game, I won't be using it to bulb Feudalism.
Oh, and welcome to the forum. It's good to see some new blood around here.
Thank you for the polite and cordial response. Since you have an open mind and a cordial attitude, I look forward to the opportunity of convincing you otherwise. Good times.
but I played civ as sandbox game back then). Chops and slavery got me to deity and I still think I don't use slavery very efficiently. You also have uses of many techs and units requiring BW before Lib. Trebs for example, or Knights on lower levels. 
) I guess an "average" suitable start would be ~ 15-20 hammers at the most so the Mids would still take ~ 15 turns to complete.
by the time you reach Replaceable Parts, also remember that extra health from forests only matters if a) You have an even number of forests (0.5
=0:health!), and b) Your cities actually need the health, which they don't necessarily.
(Aesthetics is routinely traded for IW and Philosophy can pick up MC with change), and how that affects your tech rate and bulb path (as many people do in fact bulb Liberalism!), and you have ignored the impact of the castrated expansion rate you will have by avoiding BW as no map ever makes it useless.
