The Problem is: Is the colonist kicked out of the settlement before or after yields are totaled?
If before then I see no problem with allowing a player to add back citizens
If after then it is to prevent an expliot by the player
Snoopy/Dale unofficial patch
- Thread starter Dale
- Start date
The Problem is: Is the colonist kicked out of the settlement before or after yields are totaled?
If before then I see no problem with allowing a player to add back citizens
If after then it is to prevent an expliot by the player
Exactly, I was just about to respectfully address this same not-bug when I read your post Mutineer. Actually, I believe this is the closest (if not completely obvious) to smuggling in C4c.. right!!!
I was kinda happy when I found this "feature" in the game, no tax increase awareness due to smugglers locating your goods in europe; but making just 50% of the profit out of them.. beautifull!!!
I believe the game needs the introduction of some trade buildings, maybe this is just the opportunity to set up the good $ old custom house that allows you better control over smuggling, thus making you 75% profit instead of 50% (of course this profit is discounted from the tax you pay in Europe already).
I see this issue has got hot over the thread now!!!
I will have to agree with Mutineer here in that this is a kind of trade behavior that the player is supposed to count on as an strategy to the game.
Nevertheless all your great and thankful work in this patch Dale, I believe this particular BUG FIX is doing more harm than good, and limiting even more the gameplay.
Ethan, it doesn't if we consider it smuggling!!!
Dale
Mohawk Games Developer
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That would be logical, in the case the King is NOT taxing those goods. However, tax IS taken out of the profit from warehouse expansion sales (on top of the 50% hit). Therefore they are legitimite European trades.
Anything else is an exploit like the old custom houses.
That would be logical, in the case the King is NOT taxing those goods. However, tax IS taken out of the profit from warehouse expansion sales (on top of the 50% hit). Therefore they are legitimite European trades.
Anything else is an exploit like the old custom houses.
If they are legitimate, who is transporting them, particular vessels on your behalf, I suppose?
If they are legitimate, why is it Dale that under Monarchy you can still trade in this manner, while in full war against the King and still paying his tax? This brings me to another issue. If you are trading with Europe, as a whole market, why is it that you have to pay your particular King's tax?
Same rare thing happens with these smugglers, they are carrying your goods to any port in Europe where they can sell, why do they pay your King's tax, either than a common average European tax or bribing cost?
There seems to be a common single tax to address your trade with Europe that somehow and under every circumstance is determined by your particular king. Would this be the bug Dale, Mutineer? The true fundamental bug this whole issue is driving us...
Dale
Mohawk Games Developer
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If the good is blockaded by the King, you can't trade it. Therefore you are trading with your own King, and being taxed by your own King.
The BUG is that these forms of trade were not incrementing the counters. That is the bug that was fixed.
End of argument!
The BUG is that these forms of trade were not incrementing the counters. That is the bug that was fixed.
End of argument!
I'm sorry Dale, your stubbornness isn't changing my mind (as it almost never does with anyone). I'm also sure you missed my point early on. The fact is that there seems to be a confusion in game between trading with the King, who fixes your tax rate and boycotts certain goods in all Europe against you, and trading with Europe as a whole market. If there isn't, buying guns, ships of the line and horses from your own king (under Monarchy) while in WoI is the HUGE BUG we have been all missing from the start!!
This is fundamental to our discussion and any further saying about the warehouse expansion overflow being taxed by the king or not, smuggled, or, sold to a trustfund for future generations of grand sons musketmen (for the sake of argument), is tied to it.
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
The thing is, if warehouse excess wasn't taxed in some way, in late part of the game, it would seem more profitable to just let goods be spoiled inside the cities, since king taxes go over 50%.
And since it is taxed, I see no reason why it should not affect trading prices.
And since it is taxed, I see no reason why it should not affect trading prices.
There is no problem with warehouse overflow being taxed and even affecting prices in Europe, the discussion here is about the King being aware that this trade comes from your colony, thus affecting the rate in which he chooses to increase his tax; as you know Fanatic, selling goods in european docks (F2) is one of the most influential doings in this matter.
On a sidenote, there is no remark anywhere to be found that prompts that the difference in profit from these "smuggling sales" is indeed a tax; as with those we can clearly see in the european transaction summary.
All that we know is that we make half the profit this way, so we can assume that the smuggler's fee should be 50% of the profit after an initial fee coincidental with the King's taxation. The latter might perfectly be seen as a bribing cost, which by the way is always proportional with the tax any trade is supposed to pay otherwise.
All that we know is that we make half the profit this way, so we can assume that the smuggler's fee should be 50% of the profit after an initial fee coincidental with the King's taxation. The latter might perfectly be seen as a bribing cost, which by the way is always proportional with the tax any trade is supposed to pay otherwise.
Dale
Mohawk Games Developer
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Ricci:
Here is the proof it is taxed by your King.
Note that it goes to THAT PLAYER'S Europe as GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()) is THE CURRENT PLAYER. And what is the price returned by THAT PLAYER'S Europe sell routine contain? OH LOOK! getTaxRate()!!!!! THAT PLAYER'S tax rate. Which means it is THAT PLAYER'S King who purchased the goods, not smugglers. But that argument is irrelevant as I'll explain next.
The BUG was that this method of trading was not counted as trading, thus it would not show up on graphs, demographics, etc. This BUG is fixed by the addition of the following code (note there is NOTHING in it about modifying tax rates):
Whether the METHOD is correct is irrelevant for this BUG-FIX patch. The METHOD is a question of balance and not for the patch.
Here is the proof it is taxed by your King.
Code:
From CvCity::doYields()
int iProfit = getOverflowYieldSellPercent() * GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).getSellToEuropeProfit(eYield, iLoss) / 100;
From CvPlayer::getSellToEuropeProfit()
int iPrice = iAmount * kPlayerEurope.getYieldBuyPrice(eYield);
iPrice -= (iPrice * getTaxRate()) / 100;
return iPrice;Note that it goes to THAT PLAYER'S Europe as GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()) is THE CURRENT PLAYER. And what is the price returned by THAT PLAYER'S Europe sell routine contain? OH LOOK! getTaxRate()!!!!! THAT PLAYER'S tax rate. Which means it is THAT PLAYER'S King who purchased the goods, not smugglers. But that argument is irrelevant as I'll explain next.
The BUG was that this method of trading was not counted as trading, thus it would not show up on graphs, demographics, etc. This BUG is fixed by the addition of the following code (note there is NOTHING in it about modifying tax rates):
Code:
// PatchMod: Record warehouse trades START
CvPlayer& kPlayerEurope = GET_PLAYER(GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).getParent());
GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).changeYieldTradedTotal(eYield, iLoss);
kPlayerEurope.changeYieldTradedTotal(eYield, iLoss);
GC.getGameINLINE().changeYieldBoughtTotal(kPlayerEurope.getID(), eYield, -iLoss);
// PatchMod: Record warehouse trades ENDWhether the METHOD is correct is irrelevant for this BUG-FIX patch. The METHOD is a question of balance and not for the patch.
Are you for real Dale? Showing up some code lines actually explain something about this matter in your book? Do you even try to understand other people's posts, what they are trying to say and show?
I'm not trying to spice things up man, but I feel you are making a great effort with this patching and stuff, which is truly appreciated indeed, and can't take the time to follow straight other posters maybe.
The fact mentioned above about a single tax applied to any european transaction you make, even when you are buying weapons in Europe while in WoI, paying your "King's tax" (What? This looks like a true buggy situation), clearly establishes an ambiguity between your trade with Europe as a whole and trade with your King.
Nevertheless, what is irrelevant is how a programmer names his variables and what is it that he intended can't necessarily or magically be extracted from the code. As I also mentioned above, bribing costs are always proportional to the tax the trade is supposed to pay. So why would a programmer rename a variable he is perfectly comfortable with; the code is a black box for the gamer, he sees the game through it's interface alone.
If it is indeed smuggling it shouldn't count as colonial trade. On the other hand, if it is "fixed" and the King rises up the tax more frequently when you sell this way, then my friend, tax rate is being modified.
All in all, I won't argue that this smuggling scenario was necessarily intended. But it is a nice and fair feature, not unbalanced nor overpowered. And if this had happened in the original Col we will now all be remembering such exquisite detail in grief, and wanting something of the sort to be back.
I'm not trying to spice things up man, but I feel you are making a great effort with this patching and stuff, which is truly appreciated indeed, and can't take the time to follow straight other posters maybe.
The fact mentioned above about a single tax applied to any european transaction you make, even when you are buying weapons in Europe while in WoI, paying your "King's tax" (What? This looks like a true buggy situation), clearly establishes an ambiguity between your trade with Europe as a whole and trade with your King.
Nevertheless, what is irrelevant is how a programmer names his variables and what is it that he intended can't necessarily or magically be extracted from the code. As I also mentioned above, bribing costs are always proportional to the tax the trade is supposed to pay. So why would a programmer rename a variable he is perfectly comfortable with; the code is a black box for the gamer, he sees the game through it's interface alone.
If it is indeed smuggling it shouldn't count as colonial trade. On the other hand, if it is "fixed" and the King rises up the tax more frequently when you sell this way, then my friend, tax rate is being modified.
All in all, I won't argue that this smuggling scenario was necessarily intended. But it is a nice and fair feature, not unbalanced nor overpowered. And if this had happened in the original Col we will now all be remembering such exquisite detail in grief, and wanting something of the sort to be back.
Dale
Mohawk Games Developer
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2002
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- 7,601
Ricci I am listening to what you're saying. What you're not listening to is my explanation that the warehouse expansion overflow is NOT smuggling. It was never intended to be, it is not coded as such, and there is no indication in the code, pedia or any other location within the game that this method of selling is smuggling. On the contrary every single piece of evidence points to the fact that this method of selling is to your own King.
That piece of code refers specifically to warehouse overflow selling. European/Native/Colonial trading is handled via a different method. Just so you know where I got that line of code for.
The variables a programmer uses in a professional development house are VERY important in labelling the intended consequence so his team-members know what that variable is for. So I have no clue why you said that it doesn't.
Bottom line is, this method of trading is not being counted and therefore doesn't show up on demographics, graphs or other. Regardless of whether the player sees it as smuggling or European trade, the game needs to count each piece of trade for it's internal counters. This is now fixed.
I am reading what you're saying, and understanding it completely. You're pissed off I closed an exploit the size of Col1's custom houses to avoid the King's taxes. That's all.
That piece of code refers specifically to warehouse overflow selling. European/Native/Colonial trading is handled via a different method. Just so you know where I got that line of code for.
The variables a programmer uses in a professional development house are VERY important in labelling the intended consequence so his team-members know what that variable is for. So I have no clue why you said that it doesn't.
Bottom line is, this method of trading is not being counted and therefore doesn't show up on demographics, graphs or other. Regardless of whether the player sees it as smuggling or European trade, the game needs to count each piece of trade for it's internal counters. This is now fixed.
I am reading what you're saying, and understanding it completely. You're pissed off I closed an exploit the size of Col1's custom houses to avoid the King's taxes. That's all.
Red Adept
Warlord
I know it's silly and this is just a bug fix, but is there a chance to add the warehouse and production warnings from PatchMod? Something like that should be in the game, IMO as it relieves the stress of micro-managing every turn.
By the way, thank-you for your awesome efforts with the game.
By the way, thank-you for your awesome efforts with the game.
Red Adept
Warlord
Sorry no, this is specifically for bug-fixes only. But you can play PatchMod or AoD2 for those messages.
PatchMod makes some changes that I'm not quite ready for yet, though it does some really great things.
I'll look into the AoD2 though, Thanks!
Ricci I am listening to what you're saying. What you're not listening to is my explanation that the warehouse expansion overflow is NOT smuggling. [...] You're pissed off I closed an exploit the size of Col1's custom houses to avoid the King's taxes. That's all.
Whether it is smuggling or not, whether it's sold to the player's Kingdom or to other European nations does not really matter. ATM, what you refer to as "the warehouse overflow exploit" IS the only way for a player to have an unlimited growth. This is the only way because eventually the prices in Europe drop and never recover.
Dale, what you're doing here, what you've been *stubbornly* and *repeatedly* doing for one month - despite that several people *repeatedly* warned you - is reducing the game's playability and fun (this is a fact which has been highlighted by the several posts to which you all offered a nonsense babbling as an answer).
So either launch a poll among people who play the game (Besides you, you and *you* - of course because we all understand how fixing this warehouse exploit is to *you*) about what fixes should be done or whatever fix you include, include an option to disable it as well.
Thanks in advance.
PS : I won't reply anymore to this discussion. I may express other views about other fixes but I won't humble myself into having a sterile discussion with you, which many already did or didn't have.
