strategy & cultural/diplo victory

Here's a general question from a new player to civ 4 (played a moderate amount of civ 3 many yrs ago).

For me, the Space Race victory is the path of least resistance. IIRC, just about every victory I had in Civ 3 was space, and my few games on Civ 4 so far have gone that way too. There's been times where maybe I could've pushed for military victory, but by that point I'm so far ahead in tech that it seems an unnecessary and risky ploy to push it toward domination. I'm not a peacenik - I fight defensive wars, and agressive ones in order to grab new territory. But modest success there usually leads to advantages in economy that obviate the need for global military domination.

Would others agree that space race is sort of the default victory? Or is it just my playing style?

I'm interested in trying diplo & cultural victories. I've read a few articles on those subjects, and they all pretty much say that if you want to have a chance, you have to commit to it very early. Let me know if anyone wants links, but that seems to be the accepted wisdom.

Here's my problem with that. If my goal is to win, and always do what gives me the best chance of winning (which is the goal for most games), committing early to cultural, for example, seems foolish. If I start putting all my resources into culture, I fall behind in military and tech (which weakens military further). Seems all it would take would be one good AI attack to take me out. Of course, you try to use diplo to avoid that, but in the end that seems out of my control. Why roll those dice, if I have the capacity to just stay ahead in tech myself, which gives me much more security?

So are the other victories really viable strategic options for a player just trying to win? Or are they just self-imposed challenges for folks who've gotten bored of winning the "regular" way?

It would make sense to me if the alternate victories would be good options for a player that had fallen behind in overall economy/tech and didn't look likely to catch up. I actually tried diplo in a recent game like that. (Ended up losing, but some of the votes came close. Seemed like my best chance.) But that's where the "you need to start early" advice trips me up. By the time I find out I'm behind, seems it's generally too late to switch over.

Any thoughts or rebuttals welcome. I'm still pretty much a newbie, so if I'm missing something I'd be happy to be set straight.

BTW, playing vanilla so far (am planning to pick up BTS).

first of all definitely pick up BTS. It makes the civ experience that much better .

About your question. Every VC is viable. If you know what you are doing, then you can pretty much steer the game to every VC you want.
I myself normally tend to go for domination victories. Space sometimes, Diplo when the opportunity arises, and space seldomly.

For me space always seems on immortal for me like a stall. The moment you got enough infra and a tech lead to go for a space race, without the AI going for a culture win is rare.

In my experience, if I'm not playing with a plan from the beginning I'll go for military domination. Even though I may not satisfy the requirements for the domination victory, if I really am 'dominant' then I could probably decide around 1000 AD how I want to win and there's nobody that can stop me.

But - if I'm really pushing for a 'fastest' finish kind of victory (Almost always my goal for GOTM games) then having that plan right from the beginning is excellent to focus my research path, city placement, infrastructure, etc. Especially for a cultural victory, the difference could be 100+ turns.

Late culture is a bit faster than space if you have 3 religions.

Diplo certainly doesn't have to be decided very early in the game, with the exception of the AP. You can win the AP w/o planning via strategic conquest but that's a pain. UN requires very little other than reading the situation properly and deciding on it ~1500 AD (preferably sooner).

If you have land/pop/tech lead military victories are not dicey. Nevertheless, they rate as the "hardest" of the conditions, because if you can attain them you can attain the other kinds also. Capitulation of several civs is also a fairly standard way to gain a UN victory, though UN can be done with regular diplo also.

By the way, if you know the mechanics using diplo to avoid DoWs is not a dice roll, it can be guaranteed in *some* games. If that is the case, why avoid culture?

Space is not too default for a lot of high level players. Many prefer culture, or military. My #1 most frequent win is UN. About 2/3 of those are "diplomation" beatdowns where I force civs to vote for me, the other 1/3 are legit "get everyone to like you" wins.

If you get theology first and build the apostolic palace in a religion nobody uses as a state religion, the AP victory of BTS is by far the easiest victory possible in civ.

Most of my wins tend to head towards domination or diplo. sometimes space. Cultural i would like to and i have tried reading up on it and then starting games with the aim of going for cultural but it just doe'snt work for me + i dont want to commit so early to a victory type.

I also think in my case i am severly affected by needing to fight some early wars, in games which i try to play peacefully i dont do too well.

So end result most of the time i take the war path and build the AP win through diplo, if not keep warring and win through domination, only if i really am having a tough time then i go for Space race but when you are that far ahead it's just such a drag to have to finish off the game.

TheMeInTeam said:

If you get theology first and build the apostolic palace in a religion nobody uses as a state religion, the AP victory of BTS is by far the easiest victory possible in civ.

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How does this work?

I was never sure. You need the AP, and then one city in each enemy civ with your religion?

TheMeInTeam said:

Late culture is a bit faster than space if you have 3 religions.

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Can you explain what you mean here? Are you saying that with 3 religions, you can get a cultural victory without planning for it the whole game? How does that work?

3 religions just allows for many cathedrals (+50% culture) in your top culture cities. If you have 9 cities, each with a temple of each religion, you can build all 3 cathedrals in the 3 culture cities. Whether you are powering a culture victory through artist specialists, cottages + slider, or wonders, the multiplier bonuses make the end-game much quicker; especially nice since that is the time when you are most vulnerable to attack.

hutdweller said:

Can you explain what you mean here? Are you saying that with 3 religions, you can get a cultural victory without planning for it the whole game? How does that work?

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Yes, but you need sushi.
Sushi alone can net 80+ culture before modifiers. Add the artists assigned (due to extra food surplus), broadcast tower and some of the 50% late culture wonders and you are ready to see over 1k culture per turn w/o even touching the culture slider (thus no cottages needed). You can mix creative constructions as well, you will need Iron Works city to pop a great engineer. I remember getting like like 1k6 culture per turn w/o the national wonder [Hermitage] and w/o artists although I had Sistine Chapel (initially built mostly to deny it) and built Broadway there.

bestsss said:

Yes, but you need sushi.
Sushi alone can net 80+ culture before modifiers. Add the artists assigned (due to extra food surplus), broadcast tower and some of the 50% late culture wonders and you are ready to see over 1k culture per turn w/o even touching the culture slider (thus no cottages needed). You can mix creative constructions as well, you will need Iron Works city to pop a great engineer. I remember getting like like 1k6 culture per turn w/o the national wonder [Hermitage] and w/o artists although I had Sistine Chapel (initially built mostly to deny it) and built Broadway there.

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I usually have 3 good cottage cities as well, though, although sushi rarely gets that strong for me on standard maps.

1k/turn isn't unrealistic at all. 750/turn is pretty easy and can easily beat the AIs to space/culture if you have it set by 1500 AD or so.

I usually turn my slider on pretty late. If I go culture I usually have a small empire so I dont have too many % modifiers in my legendaries, one or two cathedrals tops. I never seem to get Liberalsim before 1400 or 1500. My games end in the early 1900s. Lately, I have been using emancipation for the fast cottage growth, but rep with merc is nice too for artisits. Either way, I find I want more food so I have to get biology. France is nice for culture during this period because of the salon.

Late culture is just a lazy way (for me) to finish the game. I do have large empire but if I feel lazy for domination I go for culture since I really don't like any of diplomatic type of wins.
1400-1500 liberalism is very late imo.

bestsss said:

1400-1500 liberalism is very late imo.

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I agree. I must be doing something wrong. I think I put off CS to long because I dont prioritize COL with only 5 or 6 cities.

Still, I dont believe in racing for Lib just to get one free tech.There are other things that are important.

This is all very helpful, everyone. It seems clear that BTS makes a big difference here, but I am going to get it soon, so feel free to keep discussing it assuming I'm playing BTS.

So what would you guys say is the real point of no return in your games? I know it depends on a million factors in each game, but speaking generally, if you're going for "late culture" or "late diplo" wins, what year would you estimate you need to make that decision and commit to it in order to have enough time to finish?

And if you want to make sure those options are open to you later, what do you have to prep in the early game? Founding a couple of religions? Anything else?

And I take it you guys don't think you need to be Creative or Philosophical to win cultural?

hutdweller - Depending on the level you are playing at, the ai will win by certain dates. Example; the ai will launch on monarch by 1950 lets say.

I feel certain that you could in theory do nothing out of the ordinary for culture and turn the switch in 1900 and still win, provided you have 3 cities at size 20 with the normal buildings that are also full of towns in most tiles.