1.9 faction balance

ChrisAdams3997 said:

I'm liking this idea, and I'm thinking of one of the spell effects from FfH that would be perfect for it. The weapon itself can re-use one of the other missile models with a little re-skinning.

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Bioweaponry is one of my only ideas for making Ecaz more interesting. The Dune Encyclopedia is pretty much the only lore available for Ecaz and it describes a world full of damaging and dangerous flora. I can imagine things like Pneumofungus, Skinseeds and Acidmold being weaponized. These could used for new unique units, for example you could have a Pneumofungus unit that is anti-infantry and Acidmold unit that is anti-vehicle. As Ahriman says the Elaccan Gladiator isn't great theme-wise.

The other idea I had for Ecaz is that they might be able to import and grow some of the flora of Ecaz to Arrakis. Fogwood biodomes or something like that, perhaps providing new resources to trade in the late game.

Ecaz are our trade civ, so I prefer exotic resources and economic boosts and the like rather than biological or chemical warfare. Chemical seems more like Ordos, biological seems more like Tleilaxu.

In game terms, Ecaz could have things that boost trade income, and maybe reduce trade income of other players somehow. In terms of narcotics, the main benefits from these seem to be from gold income, from espionage points (addict enemies and then blackmail them to force them to spy for you), maybe some espionage defense (your people don't betray you when they're addicted to your product), and maybe some kind of economic sabotage and degradation of the enemies.

I think what we need is to play up the economic warfare; some kind of economic effects that harm enemies, rather than just boosting yourself.
Not sure how to do this though.

I'll go with Ahriman on this one. I read over what ever I could find on (planet)Ecaz/House Ecaz, and, yeah, they barely exist in the Dune lore, so we can really just follow in the footsteps of the Dune RTS games and make it up as we go .

All kidding aside, we should stick with the role we've given them up to this point, and as Ahriman said, that's keeping trade as their strength. At most they should just have one UU as they do now, though if we think of something better, I'll be for it.

I think what we need is to play up the economic warfare; some kind of economic effects that harm enemies, rather than just boosting yourself.
Not sure how to do this though.

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First idea that came to my head is an espionage mission that severely reduces the trade routes in a city for the given duration, even to the point of bringing it to zero trade routes. That could be particularly nasty if you've got a unit with a few promos to increase the duration. Certainly more generally useful than the ones currently affecting culture.

What should we call the Ordos Promotion? I'd thought of everything for it but a name .

edit: maybe something with maneuver, agility, fleetness, light?
edit2: I used 'Light Equipment' for now, but I'm still up for suggestions

First idea that came to my head is an espionage mission that severely reduces the trade routes in a city for the given duration, even to the point of bringing it to zero trade routes.

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I think it would have to shut down all trade for the duration, in order to not be useless. That works fine.

What should we call the Ordos Promotion? I'd thought of everything for it but a name

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I was thinking we would just call it "Raider".
"Light equipment" works fine too.
Random other possibilities: Harasser, Flanker, Skirmisher.

I was thinking we would just call it "Raider".

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I'd originally passed over this idea because of it's similarity to 'city raider', but thinking about it a second time I like it. Since it's only added automatically, and the icon is usually more important for player recognition of what promo is what anyway, it'll work just fine.

I think it would have to shut down all trade for the duration, in order to not be useless. That works fine.

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Kinda my thoughts too.

I'd originally passed over this idea because of it's similarity to 'city raider',

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I can see that; my second choice would be skirmisher, but raider feels more flavorful.

Isn't "raider" used in FFH for double income from pillaging? Then "skirmisher" may be better.

Meh, this isn't FfH

I'd like to do some final additions/changes to faction differentiation for the next patch.

Here's what I'd like to change:

1) Add Atreides Sonic Tank - Ahriman's suggestion: lower strength medium scorpion, but with collateral damage.

2) Add Ahriman's Harkonnen UB suggestion:

I'd really like to see them have a bit more resource exploitation focus.
How about: buildings that add extra unhealth but improved industrial production.
For example, their factory could be:
+10% hammers
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with ore resource.
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with nitrates resource.
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with crystal resource.

Unhealth will also synergize somewhat with their lower average populations due to whipping; unhealth is less painful for smaller cities.

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3) Make Ecaz more interesting.

I want to scrap the Elaccan Gladiator - as Ahriman says the flavor is questionable.

I'm thinking that have a Suspensor UU or an Ecaz promotion for all combat Suspensors would be good. There are no unique mechanics around Suspensors at the moment. Ecaz being a jungle planet I could argue that Ecaz suspensor technology would be more sophisticated and/or their pilots more proficient.
Possibilities:
a) anti-suspensor bonus.
b) withdrawal bonus.
c) can get defensive bonus from terrian.

Another possibility for Ecaz is that they could have a chance capture and use barbarian units representing their affiliation with the smugglers of Arrakis.

Another idea is that there Suspensors could have bonuses against Worms and could get an amount of gold for defeating worms representing capturing and selling a live worm offworld.

4) With the planned changes to the Missionaria Protectiva perhaps the Bene Gesserit have enough now - any ideas for further differentiation?

Thoughts on any of the above or other ideas in this area would be appreciated.

1) Add Atreides Sonic Tank - Ahriman's suggestion: lower strength medium scorpion, but with collateral damage.

The Atreides are already better than average in the bombers department, so they become really good at the collateral damage business, but then - why not? Its definitely flavorful.

2) Add Ahriman's Harkonnen UB suggestion:

Quote:
I'd really like to see them have a bit more resource exploitation focus.
How about: buildings that add extra unhealth but improved industrial production.
For example, their factory could be:
+10% hammers
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with ore resource.
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with nitrates resource.
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with crystal resource.

Unhealth will also synergize somewhat with their lower average populations due to whipping; unhealth is less painful for smaller cities.

If that building replaces their factory (as stated above), I'd say: Excellent!


3) Make Ecaz more interesting.
YES!!!

I want to scrap the Elaccan Gladiator EVEN MORE YES! - as Ahriman says the flavor is questionable.

I'm thinking that have a Suspensor UU or an Ecaz promotion for all combat Suspensors would be good. There are no unique mechanics around Suspensors at the moment. Ecaz being a jungle planet I could argue that Ecaz suspensor technology would be more sophisticated and/or their pilots more proficient.
Possibilities:
a) anti-suspensor bonus.
b) withdrawal bonus.
c) can get defensive bonus from terrian.

I'd support a mixture of a) and b).

Another possibility for Ecaz is that they could have a chance capture and use barbarian units representing their affiliation with the smugglers of Arrakis.

Not bad, too. Maybe has to be bound to a tech like ... when you get Courthouses, to avoid misbalance in the early game. And the need of a courtouse could easily be justified for that.

Another idea is that there Suspensors could have bonuses against Worms and could get an amount of gold for defeating worms representing capturing and selling a live worm offworld.

IIRC no one ever managed to get a living worm offworld until Heretics of Dune. I prefer the other ideas.

4) With the planned changes to the Missionaria Protectiva perhaps the Bene Gesserit have enough now Oh yes, they do.

This sounds great.
Needless to say, I'm a fan of the sonic tank, Harkonnen factory and gladiator removal.

If that building replaces their factory (as stated above)

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Right, the intention was a UB.
What should it be called?
Foundry? Mill? Sweatshop? Labor camp? Forgeworks?
We want something that sounds industrial and dirty, with flavor of labor exploitation.

Ecaz being a jungle planet I could argue that Ecaz suspensor technology would be more sophisticated and/or their pilots more proficient.

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I'm not sure I really follow that. Improved suspensor units doesn't really seem particularly flavorful.
[Also, it's not quite to say no civ gets any difference, the Ixian Mechanized trait applies to Suspensors, so Ix favors Suspensors over thopters]

Not bad, too. Maybe has to be bound to a tech like ... when you get Courthouses,

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I suspect that would be so late as to be useless, there are hardly any barbs left by that stage.
I agree its risky in the early game though, too hard to make it too powerful.
So maybe not a great mechanic. We already have the smuggler unit, which gives an element of the smuggler affiliation flavor.

IIRC no one ever managed to get a living worm offworld until Heretics of Dune

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Yeah, a bonus vs worms seems out of flavor for this period of Dune history; the mod is inspired by the original trilogy, particularly pre-finale Dune (ie before the battle with the Emperor).

In terms of possibilities for Ecaz; could they get a bonus on rushing construction with gold? ie so the gold:hammer ratio is more favorable? The idea being that they have more efficient commercial systems. Maybe also cheaper offworld unit purchase?
Something commercial or gold-related would be good.

I think the sonic tank should be more a medium scorpion with bonus against melee and/or guardsman, than a weak tank with collateral damage. In dune2 the sonic was the best for weaping sardaukars and ordos saboteurs, but not really for make useful area damages (furthermore the sonic wave make damage also to your units ...). And for gameplay, I don't think why could be the use of a weak tank with collateral dmg ? his survivability will be really poor. I think it's shame to make a UU but with poor utility.

I don't know for ecaz, but they should have something. why not a suspensor promotion make them able to remove the harsh terrain cost ? they could be have suspensors as speed in rocky ground than in desert. Not too big advantage, but usable all along the game.

For fremen, I ask myself if it can be a solution to make guardsmen able to travel in desert BUT with a desert-malus promotion, to make them as vulnerable as melee Vs thopters when they travel in desert. The objectif is not to give a superdesert defensor to fremen, but only to make them able to move all infantry men without engines. Guard should be less powerful when they are in open ground without anything for hide/protect them. So maybe there is only missiles-guard could be real match for thopter in desert, but this seem not be absurd or unbalanced as long as they also have the desert malus.

For me I have add a new UU for ordos, just a special missile launcher with a high withdraw chance. Not too complicated, but interesting to make a late ordos unit, and the hit an run strategy seem accurate with their flavor. (and also very small dune2 homage)
and replace the levi trooper of corrino to a UU grenade trooper (with +1 force)

I don't know if it is here I should say this, but I have invert assaut cannon and missile launcher : cannon have smaller range, it seem weird to me to have a cannon for improvement for a missile launcher. And the tech say "guided artillery".

n dune2 the sonic was the best for weaping sardaukars and ordos saboteurs, but not really for make useful area damages (furthermore the sonic wave make damage also to your units ...)

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They were useful for doing collateral damage against big mobs of vehicles too; the unique them about them was precisely that a single shot could kill multiple units at once. To me, that is the obvious distinguishing feature of a weapon that is a broad wave rather than a projectile or narrow beam.

And for gameplay, I don't think why could be the use of a weak tank with collateral dmg ? his survivability will be really poor.

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Vehicles can get flanking promotions that give withdraw chances. A unit with collateral damage and a high withdraw chance is very valuable.

why not a suspensor promotion make them able to remove the harsh terrain cost ?

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Suspensor units by design are supposed to be faster on desert than on land; they are primarily a "naval" unit. I don't see why we would want to create suspensors that moved faster on land; they have lower strength than land units for equivalent tech and are likely to lose badly on land anyway. It also doesn't really seem very thematic or flavorful to me.

I ask myself if it can be a solution to make guardsmen able to travel in desert

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Fremen are already incredibly powerful in their desert ability. The issue of whether Fremen guardsman should be able to travel through deserts has been much debated, but in the end we decided that their inability to do so was an important weakness for them to have, so that they are vulnerable to aircraft (especially hornets) while in the desert (can't take rocket troopers) and so that while their infantry alone can take cities, they can't defend them very effectively (because their city-defense oriented guardsman units can't travel without transport).
A penalty for guardsmen in desert terrain wouldn't be enough to preserve these weaknesses, because they could still intercept hornets (you can't have a promotion that reduces interception chance while in desert terrain) and because they could easily reinforce captured cities.

For me I have add a new UU for ordos, just a special missile launcher with a high withdraw chance.

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That doesn't really sound much like a Deviator, which we could never find a sensible way of implementing. So I don't see much flavor.
I'm very open to changing which unit the levy trooper replaces, but why do you think a grenade trooper would be a good fit?

I should add: thanks for the feedback by the way, it is always good to hear more suggestions. I hope you've enjoyed the mod thus far.

Vehicles can get flanking promotions that give withdraw chances. A unit with collateral damage and a high withdraw chance is very valuable.

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I know, it is more or less exactly what I have made with my pseudo-deviator (my goal ins't to make a deviator, but to make a late UU for the ordos, in the spirit of the hit and run trike, but for change, on a siege unit). It just this don't feet with my memory of what has been the sonic tank in dune2. but why not.

A penalty for guardsmen in desert terrain wouldn't be enough to preserve these weaknesses, because they could still intercept hornets (you can't have a promotion that reduces interception chance while in desert terrain) and because they could easily reinforce captured cities.

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Ok, I haven't seen things that way. I see no reason in the lore fremen can't carry missile launcher or rifle in bagback, but if it is a too powerful advantage in the gameplay, fremen faction don't need more.

I'm very open to changing which unit the levy trooper replaces, but why do you think a grenade trooper would be a good fit?

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Hum, I have no solid argument. I think corrino don't need a powerfull guardman in the lattle game, and a flamethrower seem could replace only the grenade trooper, in the spirit : guard unit with bonus against melee and collateral damage. I have no answer to the question "Is corrino house have need of that ?" but at "Is a flamethrower trooper make sense for corrino house ?" I think it is no. Maybe it could be better to give it to another house in lack of flavor (?)

I know, it is more or less exactly what I have made with my pseudo-deviator

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It's a bit different, because the siege units are already low strength for their tech, while the scorpion units are very high strength for their tech, and hence even a strength-reduced medium scorpion will still be facing decent combat odds, and because you can't get flanking promotions onto a siege unit.

but to make a late UU for the ordos, in the spirit of the hit and run trike

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I don't think there is very good synergy between collateral damage and withdraw on different units; they are different ways of achieving the same purpose (softening up the enemy stack before you bring in the main units). And I'm not sure that siege units really fit very well with the raider theme of the Ordos, lots of hit and run and pillaging with light vehicles.

But I think we agree with the main point, that there is synergy between collateral damage and withdraw on the same unit

I see no reason in the lore fremen can't carry missile launcher or rifle in bagback

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Yeah, the decision was heavily debated, and both sides had reasonable points, but I think the current design is probably the best choice. If we went by the lore, the Fremen would just kick everyone else's ass

I think corrino don't need a powerfull guardman in the lattle game

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Agreed, they have Sardaukar in the midgame and late-game, and those should be their elite focus. So I agree that an earlier unit makes sense for the levy trooper.
The levy trooper as a concept definitely makes sense for Corrino; the idea is these represent the troops that the Emperor can levy from the other houses under imperial custom, just as historically monarchs could levy troops from the lesser nobles.
[Recall that in Dune, everybody believes that the Sardaukar are recruited out of levies provided by the Great Houses to the Emperor - they don't know that Sardaukar actually come from Salusa Secundus.]
There's no particular reason why it needs to be a flamethrower or any other weapon.
The imperials already have an early game offensive unit - the laza tiger - so I lean towards making the levy trooper a replacement for one of the basic city defense guardsman units, with a higher city defense bonus. But there isn't a strong reason for that.

*edit*
A variation would be to have the levy trooper replace the Maula Guardsman (the strength 5 guy, I forget the current name), but to start with the city defence 1 promotion, so that for all the levy troopers you built, they had a bonus (the free promotion) which they retained when upgraded.

Can someone explain me the use of crisknives fighters ? I don't see any use for them because the research time for have them is very long, in comparision with fanatiscm which give the blademen :
- water conservation, mining, water transportation, spice extraction, exploration and stillsuit. When you have all of that, all other player already have defense tactics, which make cris fighters pretty useless.
while blademen only need faith and fanatiscm, and probably give you the shaihulud holy city. And give you the best way to mahdi.

And if you don't go straight to stillsuit, cris fighter appear more later, and are more useless ? So, how do you use these ?

IMHO they are mainly the counterpart to the quad for Fremen, whose can't build vehicles. Compare:
- Strength 4 instead of 5
+ 10 % bonus against cities intead of 35 % malus in cities
+ defensive bonuses from terrain
(-) needs water debt resource (no problem for fremen)
+ light foot unit, so can cross desert
o other promotions than quads
+ cheaper cost to build
o same movement of 2

Crysknife fighters are on a good economy tech line and have economy tech requirements that you're definitely going to want anyway. If you just go straight to Fanaticism, you are going to have a junk economy and aren't really going to produce anything. I think you would find that you get to Fanaticism faster by picking up some of the cheap economy techs first, so you can actually grow your cities.
They're cheap to build, and they're very mobile (and so are excellent for pillaging/raiding/harassment - defensive tactics means that unpromoted crysknife guys aren't great for city attacks except in large numbers, but you can still pillage-choke an AI out of the game). In the early game, when you don't have transports or much cultural coverage, it can take forever for movement 1 bladesmen to get anywhere.

And yes, they're intended to be like a Quad. They're not for city assault.