whipping more often is good if you whip "happy things" (temples, forges, markets, units under HR)
The Immortal Challenge 1: Apocalypto
- Thread starter aelf
- Start date
whipping more often is good if you whip "happy things" (temples, forges, markets, units under HR)
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
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- Dec 5, 2005
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Translation: The beatings will continue until morale improves.
aelf
Ashen One
Anyway, I've just played the next round. I'm afraid there'll be more nitpicking to do
mischief, but I also have some great stuff to report. I'll post the update later.
aelf: "Why are you unhappy, slaves?"
slaves: "Because you whip us, master. Why do you do so?"
aelf: "Because you're unhappy".
etc.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
DaviddesJ
Deity
Even if you whip every 10 turns, having the granary lets you regrow your population faster, thus (1) reducing the number of turns that you're working fewer tiles than your happiness limit, and (2) allowing you to work more mines during the course of the 10-turn cycle, and fewer farms or other food-producing tiles.
Aelf, from your comment it is clear that you afraid to accumulate whipeunhappiness. If you load save I provided you will see I have -3 I think, but it does not matter. As I point out, whipping 3 population on size 6, and 6th citisen do not have to be happy at that moment is more productive then have +3 size city, from point of view of production which is critical early on.
If I remember correctly I can continue to whipe on for some times yet even sligtly more often then one's/five turns, thanks for temple I did not build yet. I build additional farm, so I can regrow 1 pop/turn to max happy size if I want, by manipulating ties I work.
IN resent Gotm, I think it was Gotm 14 I have fishing village on -11 unhappiness for very long time, as it had only 2 food special to work and 0 land. So, I can reduce it to just 3 or even 2 happy and still can whipe 2 population for production. At the end I build Globe theater there from overflow and I think at moment I build it it had only 1 happy population -15 unhappiness from whipe.
If I remember correctly I can continue to whipe on for some times yet even sligtly more often then one's/five turns, thanks for temple I did not build yet. I build additional farm, so I can regrow 1 pop/turn to max happy size if I want, by manipulating ties I work.
IN resent Gotm, I think it was Gotm 14 I have fishing village on -11 unhappiness for very long time, as it had only 2 food special to work and 0 land. So, I can reduce it to just 3 or even 2 happy and still can whipe 2 population for production. At the end I build Globe theater there from overflow and I think at moment I build it it had only 1 happy population
-15 unhappiness from whipe.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Let me only say that I'm skeptical. It would be safe to say that this is not a standard view. However, there are many techniques that can work.
aelf
Ashen One
I usually whip 2 pop at 1 unhappiness from overcrowding. As such, there's no need to regrow any pop before whip weariness disappears. I'm starting to think that granaries are only really useful in our capital (given its abundance of food) after getting Sacrificial Altars, after which whip weariness would go away in half the time and quicker growth might be needed. And our other (Aztec) cities are gold mining cities, so I am not whipping them yet.
I'm new to the concept of ignoring whip weariness when whipping.
DaviddesJ
Deity
I don't understand. If you want to whip 2 pop every 10 turns, then you have to regrow 2 pop during those 10 turns.
aelf
Ashen One
Round 3: 875BC - 200BC
Mighty Tezcatlipoca thirsts for the blood of our enemies, so war preparations were underway from the beginning of this round. We did not forget to our daily prayers, though, as we put the priest back at his job in Tenochtitlan:
After IW was discovered, we went for Fishing and Pottery, as some of you recommended. The former is quite important for building work boats (you'll see why), and it leads to the latter, which we need for granaries and cottages.
I decided to found our third city where the barb city was:
This city would work the clams and gold, making it our second gold mining city (Teotihuacan is the first). Gold would be a significant source of commerce at least in the short term, until we have some mature cottages. There is still room for a lakeside/seaside city (another potential source of commerce) to the south.
We whipped a jaguar in our capital:
Now we had two, and we were ready for the war.
Just in time, Louis cancelled open borders:
He had taken Confucianism, which we spread in his capital, seriously. Well, that suits us fine, buddy. The perfect excuse to declare war (though none is actually needed):
And who says Louis didn't have a free worker or two to snag? Here's one:
I used our Medic chariot to capture him. The rest went on to assault Orleans, which still had only two archers defending behind walls. We won:
We lost 3 chariots in the fight, but it's worth it. We captured the Great Wall!
Our Woodsman II Jaguars, arriving swiftly through the jungles, met more resistance than expected, however:
Two CR-less Jaguars versus two entrenched archers doesn't look too good. Fortunately there's another Jaguar heading there from our capital. And one of our Combat III chariots approached Tours from the south to reinforce the Jaguars and, at the same time, block Louis' reinforcements, if any.
As soon as our third Jaguar arrived, we attacked and captured the city:
We lost a Jaguar in the process, but the other two earned CR1.
Then we got our first GP of the game:
You know what I'm thinking. We have two shrines to build, my friends. That's one down and one more to go. Religion might, aptly, play a significant role in this game.
[to be continued in the next post...]
Mighty Tezcatlipoca thirsts for the blood of our enemies, so war preparations were underway from the beginning of this round. We did not forget to our daily prayers, though, as we put the priest back at his job in Tenochtitlan:
After IW was discovered, we went for Fishing and Pottery, as some of you recommended. The former is quite important for building work boats (you'll see why), and it leads to the latter, which we need for granaries and cottages.
I decided to found our third city where the barb city was:
This city would work the clams and gold, making it our second gold mining city (Teotihuacan is the first). Gold would be a significant source of commerce at least in the short term, until we have some mature cottages. There is still room for a lakeside/seaside city (another potential source of commerce) to the south.
We whipped a jaguar in our capital:
Now we had two, and we were ready for the war.
Just in time, Louis cancelled open borders:
He had taken Confucianism, which we spread in his capital, seriously. Well, that suits us fine, buddy. The perfect excuse to declare war (though none is actually needed):
And who says Louis didn't have a free worker or two to snag? Here's one:
I used our Medic chariot to capture him. The rest went on to assault Orleans, which still had only two archers defending behind walls. We won:
We lost 3 chariots in the fight, but it's worth it. We captured the Great Wall!
Our Woodsman II Jaguars, arriving swiftly through the jungles, met more resistance than expected, however:
Two CR-less Jaguars versus two entrenched archers doesn't look too good. Fortunately there's another Jaguar heading there from our capital. And one of our Combat III chariots approached Tours from the south to reinforce the Jaguars and, at the same time, block Louis' reinforcements, if any.
As soon as our third Jaguar arrived, we attacked and captured the city:
We lost a Jaguar in the process, but the other two earned CR1.
Then we got our first GP of the game:
You know what I'm thinking. We have two shrines to build, my friends. That's one down and one more to go. Religion might, aptly, play a significant role in this game.
[to be continued in the next post...]
aelf
Ashen One
[continued from previous post]
So the Hindu shrine was built:
It only gave us 3 gpt, but with Augustus having converted to Hinduism, the potential for returns were significant. Also, the shrine is supposed to help the religion spread. But I'm not sure how effective it really is. Does anyone have any idea?
Louis tried to sneak a settler past us, guarded by two archers, and he paid the price:
Another free worker for us
Not bad for a side job while waiting for our forces from the west to arrive.
Meanwhile, we finally whipped the first Sacrificial Altar in our capital:
Aztecs rejoice! We can now sacrifice to Huitzilopochtli for the betterment of our empire!
Anyway, what remained of our offensive forces finally converged on Rheims and captured it:
Got to love those Woodsman II Jags
We lost two of them in this battle, though, including one CR1 Jag due to bad luck.
Meanwhile, Louis had managed to bring a sizeable force (evidently, he had managed to hook up horses) to bear at Orleans:
In classic AI fashion, he sat beside the city and did nothing, however. On the next turn, I tried to kill that pillaging chariot for extra experience with our Combat III chariot. Despite having 70+% chance of winning, our chariot hardly touched his
A Woodsman II Jag did the job, though, earning us a Great General in the process:
I think he should join our Medic Chariot and become a Medic III warlord unit. What do you think?
With all our war objectives met and a Great General born, I think it's time to end the war. We just discovered Alphabet (partially funded by plunder money), so it's possible to extort techs from Louis for peace:
I haven't made the deal, though. I'm thinking of changing Meditation to Masonry. When mousing over the Greal Wall in Orleans, the pop up box has the red words "Requires Masonry". I wonder if we need Masonry for the wonder to work. It doesn't seem to be producing any GPP. Captured wonders give GPP, right? I can't remember them not doing so.
Yes, this is where the round ended. The tech situation:
We have both techs on Augustus and Louis. I'm thinking of trading Alphabet away, but not CoL yet. We can probably get most of the techs they have on us. Yes, Louis hates us now and probably won't just trade with us, but we can switch to his state religion. In fact, as a Spiritual civ, there's almost nothing to stop us from doing so. If it makes him happy enough to trade (he would be 'Cautious' instead of 'Annoyed'), I would do it. This is where spreading Confucianism to him with our free missionary would really pay off.
It isn't all good news, though. Somebody overseas has built the Great Library
Augustus, meanwhile, has built the Pyramids and (IIRC) the Great Lighthouse. Looks like he's having a whale of a time being left alone down there. It might be good for us in the long run, though, when we've conquered his cities More worryingly, he has also founded Christianity, which means he might switch his state religion soon.
Here are maps of our continent:
Our exploring Combat III warrior has been holed up in a Roman city down there, after being badly injured from an attack by a French archer, so our map of Roman lands isn't too updated.
As you can see, we practically own about half our continent already. If you're worried about our economy crashing, your fears are legitimate. The slump won't last long, though. Cottages and altars are coming up and infrastructure is being built. The French cities also come with semi-developed cottages. And don't forget the economic power of two gold mines.
So what next? I think we should research Currency after trading for Mathematics. Any other opinions? We can finish Louis off when our economy is stronger and catapults arrive on the scene. After that, we can start thinking about attacking the Romans. What about settling our own cities, though? This map is frustrating to dotmap. In order to fill some gaps, such as to the west of Tours, some cities are going to be very mediocre. Apart from the lakeside/seaside city, should we not bother? How about the barb city up north? Should we keep or raze that?
I feel good about this round. On Emperor, I would be very confident about our prospects. Not so sure about Immortal, though.
So the Hindu shrine was built:
It only gave us 3 gpt, but with Augustus having converted to Hinduism, the potential for returns were significant. Also, the shrine is supposed to help the religion spread. But I'm not sure how effective it really is. Does anyone have any idea?
Louis tried to sneak a settler past us, guarded by two archers, and he paid the price:
Another free worker for us
Not bad for a side job while waiting for our forces from the west to arrive.Meanwhile, we finally whipped the first Sacrificial Altar in our capital:
Aztecs rejoice! We can now sacrifice to Huitzilopochtli for the betterment of our empire!
Anyway, what remained of our offensive forces finally converged on Rheims and captured it:
Got to love those Woodsman II Jags
We lost two of them in this battle, though, including one CR1 Jag due to bad luck.Meanwhile, Louis had managed to bring a sizeable force (evidently, he had managed to hook up horses) to bear at Orleans:
In classic AI fashion, he sat beside the city and did nothing, however. On the next turn, I tried to kill that pillaging chariot for extra experience with our Combat III chariot. Despite having 70+% chance of winning, our chariot hardly touched his
A Woodsman II Jag did the job, though, earning us a Great General in the process:I think he should join our Medic Chariot and become a Medic III warlord unit. What do you think?
With all our war objectives met and a Great General born, I think it's time to end the war. We just discovered Alphabet (partially funded by plunder money), so it's possible to extort techs from Louis for peace:
I haven't made the deal, though. I'm thinking of changing Meditation to Masonry. When mousing over the Greal Wall in Orleans, the pop up box has the red words "Requires Masonry". I wonder if we need Masonry for the wonder to work. It doesn't seem to be producing any GPP. Captured wonders give GPP, right? I can't remember them not doing so.
Yes, this is where the round ended. The tech situation:
We have both techs on Augustus and Louis. I'm thinking of trading Alphabet away, but not CoL yet. We can probably get most of the techs they have on us. Yes, Louis hates us now and probably won't just trade with us, but we can switch to his state religion. In fact, as a Spiritual civ, there's almost nothing to stop us from doing so. If it makes him happy enough to trade (he would be 'Cautious' instead of 'Annoyed'), I would do it. This is where spreading Confucianism to him with our free missionary would really pay off.
It isn't all good news, though. Somebody overseas has built the Great Library
Augustus, meanwhile, has built the Pyramids and (IIRC) the Great Lighthouse. Looks like he's having a whale of a time being left alone down there. It might be good for us in the long run, though, when we've conquered his cities More worryingly, he has also founded Christianity, which means he might switch his state religion soon.Here are maps of our continent:
Our exploring Combat III warrior has been holed up in a Roman city down there, after being badly injured from an attack by a French archer, so our map of Roman lands isn't too updated.
As you can see, we practically own about half our continent already. If you're worried about our economy crashing, your fears are legitimate. The slump won't last long, though. Cottages and altars are coming up and infrastructure is being built. The French cities also come with semi-developed cottages. And don't forget the economic power of two gold mines.
So what next? I think we should research Currency after trading for Mathematics. Any other opinions? We can finish Louis off when our economy is stronger and catapults arrive on the scene. After that, we can start thinking about attacking the Romans. What about settling our own cities, though? This map is frustrating to dotmap. In order to fill some gaps, such as to the west of Tours, some cities are going to be very mediocre. Apart from the lakeside/seaside city, should we not bother? How about the barb city up north? Should we keep or raze that?
I feel good about this round. On Emperor, I would be very confident about our prospects. Not so sure about Immortal, though.
aelf
Ashen One
For example, if Tenochtitlan is unhappy at size 7 (6
<7
), I whip it for two pop. The city then becomes size 5 with 6>6, 5 from overcrowding and 1 from whip weariness. As you can see, there's no need to regrow the city until whip weariness goes away.For example, if Tenochtitlan is unhappy at size 7 (6
You're right Aelf, but DaviddesJ is right too
If you do it this way (which is IMHO a good way), you're not whipping every 10 turns, you're whipping after 10 turns + second growth. Which is very likely to be 20 turns.
aelf
Ashen One
just one question : why did you build the hindu shrine over the confucianist one? Having in mind the option to switch to confucianism, you'd want to spread that religion, don't you?
I thought that the switch would be momentary, just to trade a few techs with Louis. Augustus is Hindu and had not founded Christianity at the time we built the shrine. Of course hindsight is 20/20.
aelf
Ashen One
You're right Aelf, but DaviddesJ is right too
If you do it this way (which is IMHO a good way), you're not whipping every 10 turns, you're whipping after 10 turns + second growth. Which is very likely to be 20 turns.
20 turns isn't quite right either. As I said, we have plenty of food in the capital. A granary would mean a difference of 2 turns, which is good but not amazing, while there are other things we can build, like units.
It is optimal to whip all citizens that are working tiles that produce +1 net food/hammer (farms and forests) because you lose relatively low city output during the regrowth that way. With a high food city and granary you'll grow them back within the 10 turns.
dragomaster
Warlord
this sacrifice altar is a nice one. have to try aztec next
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