funkymunky
Warlord
Greetings fellow despots, comrades & prime ministers,
I'd like to share a strange and interesting experience I have had in a current game of Civ 5 BNW and see what people think, because I'm convinced that this situation is from some buggy diplomacy, although I think I understand how this situation came about. But before I begin, I should provide a bit of history.
I start my story as Theodora of Byzantium, who led a ragged band of wanderers to establish our capital on an isolated peninsula on the continent we call Adriatica. We soon discovered that this peninsula was well protected to the south by a range of mountains, protecting us from the savagery of Carthage who lay beyond, and Egypt, who fell to Dido's merciless onslaughts fairly early in the game. However, despite her multiple attempts, Dido was never able to invade over the mountains north of her, and her only other option was through a small but forested peninsula far to the east, south of my city of Nicaea. However, as I had discovered the strategic value of that area very early and used one of my generals to establish a very well positioned citadel, Dido was never able to effectively invade me until the current modern era.
In any case, as I try to make a long story short, we also discovered an island to the south west where the Japanese realm lies, and to the west we found another large island/continent we call Westalia, where a bunch of city-states used to be, and westward beyond that is the continent I call Peloponesia, where the Greeks have spread their disgusting empire like a plague. On that continent also lie the Moroccans and the Venetians.
At this point I take you to the modern era, where we now have three blocks of power between myself and Japan (the Bastion of Order), Greece and Carthage (the Iron Hand of Autocracy), and Morocco & Venice (Free Peoples Alliance). Many years ago, before the industrial revolution began, Japan had built a couple of cities on Westalia, and so we contested that continent by building alliances with the several citi-states of Ormus, Panama City, Ife, & M'banza-Kongo. I also was contesting the favor of these small nations with Greece, who had allied with Panama City and Ife, and which eventually fell under my control during our first Greco-Byzantine war. However, we Byzantines were also contesting the Japanese for this continent, and so ended up waging another war with Japan where we destroyed their two colonies on Westalia. This eventually left Byzantium with nearly complete control of the continent, with the exception of M'banza-Kongo, who remained a free state for quite some time later.
So here we get to the crux of my story. I believe that M'banza-Kongo's ownership of silk played a big part in the diplomatic intrugue that played out in our history, as their allegiance kept shifting between myself, Japan, Greece and Carthage. Eventually Japan managed to keep M'banza-Kongo under their wing for quite a while and inevitably pledged protection to them. This seemed quite fine with me since we were becoming better friends after we both adopted Order, and I wished to keep them as my ally while Carthage and Greece strengthened their alliance.
Well, as history played out, the Moroccans asked me to join them in a war against Greece. I had a small colony on Peloponesia to harvest some sugar & other resources, and I saw a nice opportunity to stick it to Alexander's WC delegation as well by conquering the bordering city state of Belgrade, who was allied with the Greeks, so I joined Ahmad al-Mansur's assault and flanked Alexander from the east and while Morocco attacked from the west.
And, not surprisingly, Dido apparently saw this as another opportunity to hit me, so she soon declared war on me, and with Japan soon after attacking Venice, it seemed like we had our first world war in full swing. And so this is where the strange diplomatic events begin with M'banza-Kongo.
Because, you see, soon after Dido declared war on me, she managed to get an alliance with the state of M'banza-Kongo, which quickly declared war on me as well. And seeing this as an opportunity to grab the silk that many of my own cities had grown to desire, and after a very bloody and savage war between myself, the Greeks and Carthage, I managed to wrest M'banza-Kongo (as well as Dido's capital) from the hands of the villainous Carthaginians and bring it under my own rule, which I thought was wonderful. That is, until Odo Nobunaga denounced me the next turn, even though we had declared friendship just a few turns earlier!
As you might imagine, I was initially shocked by this turn of events, and I wasn't thrilled by it, because with Japan having the second largest military on the globe, and having developed quite good relations since we both turned to Order, I wanted to keep them on my side. Also, I wondered why this happened at this point, since it was Carthage who was allied with Kongo, but the best I can figure is that because Odo had declared to protect them some time ago when they used to be allied, Odo must have thought that my recent conquest of Kongo was an attack on them, ignoring the fact that they were now allied with Carthage (who they did not like any better and in fact had denounced a while earlier).
So, I was wondering if anyone else has seen strange diplomatic behavior like that and had any advice on how to avoid the diplomatic hit when city states turn their allegiances on a dime like I mentioned and end up declaring war on you because of it. I suppose I could have not taken M'banza-Kongo, but the silk was too tempting, plus, it seemed to be a very strategic territory for me, being in the middle of my expanding empire. I figure in any case, it was worth taking the city despite the denouncement, but it seems to me that if Japan had lost their alliance to Carthage, their protection should have gotten revoked. I'm sure that didn't happen, as Japan was probably still friendly with the city, but it seems like either those protection pledges should only be made when you are allies (kinda like how defense pacts can only be made when you are friendly with another civ), or there should be some checks to revoke it if someone else allies with the state (and force the AI to deliberately renew it again). However, I guess my first suggestion somewhat defeats the diplo gain you get from the pledges, so maybe we need the second fix. So, has anyone else seen similar events play out in their games and also share my suspicions, convictions, and also think perhaps there should be a fix?
P.S. I attached a screen shot of the area near M'banza-Kongo to give some idea of the political & geographic map. I really like the was the map generator did this world.
I'd like to share a strange and interesting experience I have had in a current game of Civ 5 BNW and see what people think, because I'm convinced that this situation is from some buggy diplomacy, although I think I understand how this situation came about. But before I begin, I should provide a bit of history.
I start my story as Theodora of Byzantium, who led a ragged band of wanderers to establish our capital on an isolated peninsula on the continent we call Adriatica. We soon discovered that this peninsula was well protected to the south by a range of mountains, protecting us from the savagery of Carthage who lay beyond, and Egypt, who fell to Dido's merciless onslaughts fairly early in the game. However, despite her multiple attempts, Dido was never able to invade over the mountains north of her, and her only other option was through a small but forested peninsula far to the east, south of my city of Nicaea. However, as I had discovered the strategic value of that area very early and used one of my generals to establish a very well positioned citadel, Dido was never able to effectively invade me until the current modern era.
In any case, as I try to make a long story short, we also discovered an island to the south west where the Japanese realm lies, and to the west we found another large island/continent we call Westalia, where a bunch of city-states used to be, and westward beyond that is the continent I call Peloponesia, where the Greeks have spread their disgusting empire like a plague. On that continent also lie the Moroccans and the Venetians.
At this point I take you to the modern era, where we now have three blocks of power between myself and Japan (the Bastion of Order), Greece and Carthage (the Iron Hand of Autocracy), and Morocco & Venice (Free Peoples Alliance). Many years ago, before the industrial revolution began, Japan had built a couple of cities on Westalia, and so we contested that continent by building alliances with the several citi-states of Ormus, Panama City, Ife, & M'banza-Kongo. I also was contesting the favor of these small nations with Greece, who had allied with Panama City and Ife, and which eventually fell under my control during our first Greco-Byzantine war. However, we Byzantines were also contesting the Japanese for this continent, and so ended up waging another war with Japan where we destroyed their two colonies on Westalia. This eventually left Byzantium with nearly complete control of the continent, with the exception of M'banza-Kongo, who remained a free state for quite some time later.
So here we get to the crux of my story. I believe that M'banza-Kongo's ownership of silk played a big part in the diplomatic intrugue that played out in our history, as their allegiance kept shifting between myself, Japan, Greece and Carthage. Eventually Japan managed to keep M'banza-Kongo under their wing for quite a while and inevitably pledged protection to them. This seemed quite fine with me since we were becoming better friends after we both adopted Order, and I wished to keep them as my ally while Carthage and Greece strengthened their alliance.
Well, as history played out, the Moroccans asked me to join them in a war against Greece. I had a small colony on Peloponesia to harvest some sugar & other resources, and I saw a nice opportunity to stick it to Alexander's WC delegation as well by conquering the bordering city state of Belgrade, who was allied with the Greeks, so I joined Ahmad al-Mansur's assault and flanked Alexander from the east and while Morocco attacked from the west.
And, not surprisingly, Dido apparently saw this as another opportunity to hit me, so she soon declared war on me, and with Japan soon after attacking Venice, it seemed like we had our first world war in full swing. And so this is where the strange diplomatic events begin with M'banza-Kongo.
Because, you see, soon after Dido declared war on me, she managed to get an alliance with the state of M'banza-Kongo, which quickly declared war on me as well. And seeing this as an opportunity to grab the silk that many of my own cities had grown to desire, and after a very bloody and savage war between myself, the Greeks and Carthage, I managed to wrest M'banza-Kongo (as well as Dido's capital) from the hands of the villainous Carthaginians and bring it under my own rule, which I thought was wonderful. That is, until Odo Nobunaga denounced me the next turn, even though we had declared friendship just a few turns earlier!
As you might imagine, I was initially shocked by this turn of events, and I wasn't thrilled by it, because with Japan having the second largest military on the globe, and having developed quite good relations since we both turned to Order, I wanted to keep them on my side. Also, I wondered why this happened at this point, since it was Carthage who was allied with Kongo, but the best I can figure is that because Odo had declared to protect them some time ago when they used to be allied, Odo must have thought that my recent conquest of Kongo was an attack on them, ignoring the fact that they were now allied with Carthage (who they did not like any better and in fact had denounced a while earlier).
So, I was wondering if anyone else has seen strange diplomatic behavior like that and had any advice on how to avoid the diplomatic hit when city states turn their allegiances on a dime like I mentioned and end up declaring war on you because of it. I suppose I could have not taken M'banza-Kongo, but the silk was too tempting, plus, it seemed to be a very strategic territory for me, being in the middle of my expanding empire. I figure in any case, it was worth taking the city despite the denouncement, but it seems to me that if Japan had lost their alliance to Carthage, their protection should have gotten revoked. I'm sure that didn't happen, as Japan was probably still friendly with the city, but it seems like either those protection pledges should only be made when you are allies (kinda like how defense pacts can only be made when you are friendly with another civ), or there should be some checks to revoke it if someone else allies with the state (and force the AI to deliberately renew it again). However, I guess my first suggestion somewhat defeats the diplo gain you get from the pledges, so maybe we need the second fix. So, has anyone else seen similar events play out in their games and also share my suspicions, convictions, and also think perhaps there should be a fix?
P.S. I attached a screen shot of the area near M'banza-Kongo to give some idea of the political & geographic map. I really like the was the map generator did this world.
