No Modding Tools, Please!

The OP happens to be correct in that there IS a cost, and what for? So people who don't know how to program can make a simple mod in a very slow manner?

I would say its absolutely useless to make a program to edit the XML. We have Vim and Emacs for that.
 
mathepic said:
The OP happens to be correct in that there IS a cost, and what for? So people who don't know how to program can make a simple mod in a very slow manner?

I would say its absolutely useless to make a program to edit the XML. We have Vim and Emacs for that.
Click to expand...

So wht you and Afforess are saying is that people that don't know how to program should not be allowed to contribute?
 
Bravo, Bowsling!
Thorburne said:
So wht you and Afforess are saying is that people that don't know how to program should not be allowed to contribute?
Click to expand...
It might just be that they're elititst, or should I say 1337ist?
 
mathepic said:
The OP happens to be correct in that there IS a cost, and what for? So people who don't know how to program can make a simple mod in a very slow manner?

I would say its absolutely useless to make a program to edit the XML. We have Vim and Emacs for that.
Click to expand...

And I will repeat, any development team worth its salt either uses purchased tools OR develops in-house tools (for Civ4 they used gamebryo for the graphics engine which has it's own built in workflow and licensing restrictions).
Knowing that they were going to offer "Modding potential" as a selling point, one would expect, logically, that there will be little to no licensing restrictions on the development tools..which will either be "polished" to become editors........ or released as-is if (relatively) user friendly.
On top of which, no development house is obliged to release anything, ever, other than the game.
Based on box sales there would be at least 100 people with zero interest in modding or mods to every 1 that does.
This site is called Civ"fanatics" for a reason.
 
If you had read my post carefully, you would notice the word simple.

If the tool can make a good, non-simple mod, then its fine. Else, its really better off to teach the novice how to do it without the tool instead of providing them with a crutch.
 
mathepic said:
If you had read my post carefully, you would notice the word simple.

If the tool can make a good, non-simple mod, then its fine. Else, its really better off to teach the novice how to do it without the tool instead of providing them with a crutch.
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A simple mod is still a contribution!
 
I understand that. What I'm saying is that if people are forced to learn how to do it with just a text editor, they could probably get good enough to start making more elaborate mods much faster.
 
mathepic said:
If you had read my post carefully, you would notice the word simple.

If the tool can make a good, non-simple mod, then its fine. Else, its really better off to teach the novice how to do it without the tool instead of providing them with a crutch.
Click to expand...

I disagree. why do you think ski instructors teach first-time skiers snowplow, while all the pros carve?
 
I don't really know anything about skiing, but I'd say that its probably different in the manner that a beginning skiier could probably get injured using a pro technique.

If I make a simple mod by either going into a GUI tool and using menus or editing XML by hand, which gives me experience applicable to more types of modding?
 
You do raise a good point. But there are still the people who just want to add a civ, change unit stat, make a simple scenario. Why do these people have to go to the trouble of learning a programming language just to make one or two little tweaks?
 
mathepic said:
If you had read my post carefully, you would notice the word simple.

If the tool can make a good, non-simple mod, then its fine. Else, its really better off to teach the novice how to do it without the tool instead of providing them with a crutch.
Click to expand...
[sarcasm]
You are so right. Nothing says n00b like using programs released by the developers.[/sarcasm]

Seriously, not everyone desires to code (really!). But many can enjoy creating.

Also it's a little pompous to make that statement, when your basically using an inplace framework and simply adding (modding) some variables.
Code an entire game framework from the ground up...THEN you can make that statement.
 
I wouldn't really consider XML a programming language. Its more or less just a way to store data.
 
Yes, but it can look quite overwhelming, with all these short-form tags, "i" at the beginning of some tags, "b" at the beginning of others. More complicated than simply opening a window and changing a text box from "15" to "16" or using a scroll menu to change a prerequisite from bronze working to iron working.
 
It might just be that they're elititst, or should I say 1337ist?
Click to expand...
It's easy to paint someone you don't agree with as elitist. :lol:
 
mathepic said:
I wouldn't really consider XML a programming language. Its more or less just a way to store data.
Click to expand...

Where did I mention XML ?
If you did, then your comment is even worse. I was talking about python.

And it isn't more or less a way to store data, it is exactly that. It originally complimented HTML which is designed to display data.
 
PieceOfMind said:
It's easy to paint someone you don't agree with as elitist. :lol:
Click to expand...
Isn't the 'if you can't do it with my more advanced knowledge then get out' bit slightly elitist? :)
 
Actually, technically there ARE programming languages completely based off of XML. I would not call this storing data.

As for mentioning XML, it is inferred when you are talking about making small tweaks. Its not like you can really use a GUI tool to edit Python without knowledge of Python.
 
Takhisis said:
Isn't the 'if you can't do it with my more advanced knowledge then get out' bit slightly elitist? :)
Click to expand...

Not what I said. I'm saying that its actually better to edit it by hand to gain experience so that you can move up to more advanced things. In other words, learning.
 
mathepic said:
Not what I said. I'm saying that its actually better to edit it by hand to gain experience so that you can move up to more advanced things. In other words, learning.
Click to expand...
I wasn't talking about you.
 
Afforess said:
Thank you Yakk. Making a huge suite of tools like that would take FOREVER! I'm glad someone else sees the light. ;)
Click to expand...

Dev houses I've had experience with (and that's a couple now) usually open tools programming up to interns/fresh graduates. They get an opportunity to prove themselves by developing the tools for the level designers (read that as Modding tools if you like). If they do a good job they usually get promoted to full time and start working on small parts of actual game engines.

You'll probably find there's a couple of these programmers working on the tools. They probably get around a year of the dev cycle to code the tools and keep them up to date with iterations of the engine.

That's been my experience with gaming companies. I do seriously think your concerns are not relevant, and I'm guessing here that your REAL concern is your mod being lost in the "noise" as you called it.

I'd rather 1000 people getting access to the modding tools and "having a go" than a tiny number of elitist mods. Sometimes the simplest mod is the best. Take a look at Civ4 Col. One of the most popular mods simply adds Portugal. Nothing else.
 
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