No Modding Tools, Please!

mathepic said:
Actually, technically there ARE programming languages completely based off of XML. I would not call this storing data.

As for mentioning XML, it is inferred when you are talking about making small tweaks. Its not like you can really use a GUI tool to edit Python without knowledge of Python.
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But isn't Python a high level programming language and hence a tool ?
I thought we didn't want use to any tools ?

(yes I'm being pedantic, yes I know it's annoying....)

Look at the majority of "quality" mods for 4 and consider how many actually use the same SDK mods but paint themselves as different, because they have a new tech tree or units......data changes.

Do you really think that releasing tools enabling these data changes to be made by many people will lower the overall quality of the BIG, popular packages ?

Of course it won't, it will free up more time to refine the SDK additions, instead of plodding through text files to change a number, test a number...wash rinse and repeat.
It will speed up the development cycle.
 
EdCase said:
Look at the majority of "quality" mods for 4 and consider how many actually use the same SDK mods but paint themselves as different, because they have a new tech tree or units......data changes.
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True, there are only a tiny amount of true SDK innovators. Most of the big mods are just packages of other mods.
 
Takhisis said:
Isn't the 'if you can't do it with my more advanced knowledge then get out' bit slightly elitist? :)
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Can you please link a direct quotation rather than putting words in his mouth?
 
Dale said:
True, there are only a tiny amount of true SDK innovators. Most of the big mods are just packages of other mods.
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It's very very easy to separate "big mods" that are conglomerations of pre-made stuff from real innovation.
 
Thank you for agreeing with me Dale. As someone who does mod for IV (I respect your patience) I'm glad you noticed.
 
Dale said:
True, there are only a tiny amount of true SDK innovators. Most of the big mods are just packages of other mods.
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Again, true, but that's because a mod that limits its changes to ONLY sdk is probably pretty boring. The exceptions would be very focused mods like Better AI which are expected to be primarily sdk.
 
Afforess said:
It's very very easy to separate "big mods" that are conglomerations of pre-made stuff from real innovation.
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Note that I DID say "most". :rolleyes:
 
PieceOfMind said:
Again, true, but that's because a mod that limits its changes to ONLY sdk is probably pretty boring. The exceptions would be very focused mods like Better AI which are expected to be primarily sdk.
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What was meant by the original comment, and my agreement is not about "only sdk" mods. What I'm talking about is there is only a tiny number of people creating NEW concepts for Civ. Most of the big mods just packages bits from everyone else's modding. Civ4 not only brought about a new level of modding, it produced the most popular and recognised modder TYPE: The Mod Packager.

The Mod Packager takes bits of other people's modding, combines them all together to form a new experience. I'm not being negative, some of these mods are really good. The skill is in picking which components to combine and the fine tuning to make those components hum together.

Whereas most of MY modding was producing new concepts for Civ. Combat Mod, Achievements, Ranged Bombardment, Air Missions, etc. There isn't many people who can do that. That's what the meaning of the comments were. :)
 
Done right, advanced editors could also enhance efforts for modders who prefer to get their hands dirty.

Something that would permit advanced editors for the XML and at the same time provide better information for people who just want to edit the XML in notepad, would be for Firaxis to include XML schema files providing metadata on all the XML fields, including a description of what each field does in the game. An advanced editor could combine this information within it, whereas modders could also use the schema file as a reference tool.
 
Dale said:
What was meant by the original comment, and my agreement is not about "only sdk" mods. What I'm talking about is there is only a tiny number of people creating NEW concepts for Civ. Most of the big mods just packages bits from everyone else's modding. Civ4 not only brought about a new level of modding, it produced the most popular and recognised modder TYPE: The Mod Packager.

The Mod Packager takes bits of other people's modding, combines them all together to form a new experience. I'm not being negative, some of these mods are really good. The skill is in picking which components to combine and the fine tuning to make those components hum together.

Whereas most of MY modding was producing new concepts for Civ. Combat Mod, Achievements, Ranged Bombardment, Air Missions, etc. There isn't many people who can do that. That's what the meaning of the comments were. :)
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I don't think they are the most popular, but perhaps the most vocal. Mods that actually innovate, like RevDCM, FFH2, Ryhe's and Fall, etc... have 10-100x as many downloads as, say, a packaged mod like Quot Capita.
 
mrt144 said:
Afforess needs to be tarred and feathered.
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I doubt you would advocate that so quickly if you knew what it actually entailed. Tar and Feathering is probably in the top 10 worst ways to die. :p
 
I would like a separate map editor.

The Civfanatics community made a few good ones, this was my favorite as it let you load a picture in the background that you could trace. Much easier than going through the game and much much easier than trying to edit the terrain through notepad (!), though notepad was great for setting up players and making little adjustments if you knew what tile you wanted (like adding or removing buildings from a city, etc.).
 
Afforess said:
I don't think they are the most popular, but perhaps the most vocal. Mods that actually innovate, like RevDCM, FFH2, Ryhe's and Fall, etc... have 10-100x as many downloads as, say, a packaged mod like Quot Capita.
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RevDCM is a package mod. ;)
 
Dale said:
What was meant by the original comment, and my agreement is not about "only sdk" mods. What I'm talking about is there is only a tiny number of people creating NEW concepts for Civ. Most of the big mods just packages bits from everyone else's modding. Civ4 not only brought about a new level of modding, it produced the most popular and recognised modder TYPE: The Mod Packager.

The Mod Packager takes bits of other people's modding, combines them all together to form a new experience. I'm not being negative, some of these mods are really good. The skill is in picking which components to combine and the fine tuning to make those components hum together.

Whereas most of MY modding was producing new concepts for Civ. Combat Mod, Achievements, Ranged Bombardment, Air Missions, etc. There isn't many people who can do that. That's what the meaning of the comments were. :)
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Exactly, and modding tools I suspect will do next to nothing in terms of enabling people to make "new concepts". It will always be the "new concepts" mods I'm most interested in.

I think we are in fact in agreement mostly. The mod packagers as you call them, I've tended to call mergers. (Maybe merging implies combining SDK mods, I'm not sure)
 
PieceOfMind said:
Exactly, and modding tools I suspect will do next to nothing in terms of enabling people to make "new concepts". It will always be the "new concepts" mods I'm most interested in.

I think we are in fact in agreement mostly. The mod packagers as you call them, I've tended to call mergers. (Maybe merging implies combining SDK mods, I'm not sure)
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Mod aggregators.
 
Dale said:
RevDCM is a package mod. ;)
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I know what you're implying here, but it's bull; alot of work was done by glider getting your buggy code to stop breaking things, the process of getting DCM to stop causing crashes took literally months. So many of the pieces in RevDCM, just didn't work right and took a lot of work fixing them up, or getting them to play nice together. This isn't trivial packaging either dale, especially the parts about fixing broken code. Do to many of the more glaring issues, I ended up having to teach myself C++ and python from google, and getting lots of help along the way on forums from those like Emperor Fool. Currently I spend roughly 20+ hours a week working on RevDCM, and alot of that time is spent hammering out code.

I mean in the respect that most high level software is a package of varying peoples work, (no one sits down and writes 1GB programs themselves), sure, but as you are implying no. Also the main component in RevDCM is Revolutions, which along with Barbarian Civs was coded and created almost entirely by jdog, who is a developer of RevDCM.
 
I have been known to use the Morrowind Construction Set to tweak a few things in my heavily modded game to my liking. I am certainly not a modder. For this I am grateful that Bethesda released such a powerful tool. A quick perusal of the literally hundreds of mods that get somehow posted on modding sites "created" by people with even less talent than me (and none of my stunning personality traits) would probably advise most other companies not to do the same, considering the sheer dross that buries many sites. There are some great works, a lot of average but decent works and endless rubbish. As Sturgeon said, 90% of everything is crap and, with proper modding tools, the 90% dross is now suddenly in the hands of those who don't even realise this.
 
Dale said:
RevDCM is a package mod. ;)
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That is the biggest lie in this entire thread; and that's not to demean the rest of you guys, there were some pretty epic ones. :lol:

But, I guess you don't really understand, do you? It's not like Jdog wrote the Better AI and Unofficial Patch from scratch; or anything. :rolleyes: And of course, Revolutions. Obviously, Jdog secretly stole that mod from you, yes? :lol:

Your statement is a complete load of bullocks and I DEMAND you issue an apology to Jdog, Glider1 & Phungus. You can insult me, or anyone else, but flat out lies; well you might as well state that the sky is a bright green today.
 
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