Stop at a certain age

Prove it!

It will be hard to prove, but if it helps, I never cared about any achievement in any game, and I know there are a load of people out there who think the same, have seen it many times on other boards (Bioware, Blizzard,...)

I guess the biggest problem is not so much the gameplay (although a unit limit might help), but the fact that most games are decided by that point. And Firaxis can't do much about it. The player could choose a difficulty tough enough for him not leading most of the time, so that the later battles have a meaning.
But then again, I felt that the biggest difficulty I could tolerate early on, just turned out to be easy later, when my empire was up and running.

Maybe there is also a problem with the huge differences in strenght between the later units. Tanks allow the player easily to stomp most oponents who are behind, and destroyers are even worse. The first time I feal a huge leap forward are riflemen.
 
Awesome that you like the idea, and come up with more idea's!

But how should we do now to get the civ-crew to read this or to send it all to them?
This is something that is vital for me :D i'd be pretty dissapointed if this was leading nowhere, as it usually does!:blush:
 
I'm not sure if there's another thread like this, but i have a suggestion for the civ5 developers.

Every time i play i always get bored when i reach the modern ages. I always start new games because i only find the beginning and the middle of the game fun - between stone age and industrial.

My suggestion for the developers is to be able to set a certain age (stone age, classical, medieval, renaissance, industrial or modern) as a stop. For example, if you choose renaissance as the final age, you cannot go any further in technology - only play between stone age and renaissance and that's it.

I'm sure that i'm not the only one who loves to play with the early gunpowder units and airplanes, and then gets bored once there's modern armors and nukes all over the place.

Thanks! :goodjob:
:agree: I love playing in ancient & medieval era. The problem in the Modern Era onwards is that most of the game is done. You're in a very good position unlike in start when you're struggling to establish yourself as a super power.
 
Maybe there is also a problem with the huge differences in strenght between the later units. Tanks allow the player easily to stomp most oponents who are behind, and destroyers are even worse. The first time I feal a huge leap forward are riflemen.
For that you need a mod that fills in the unit gaps. Remember in Civ IV vanilla there was no siege unit between catapult & cannon. :D
 
:agree: I love playing in ancient & medieval era. The problem in the Modern Era onwards is that most of the game is done. You're in a very good position unlike in start when you're struggling to establish yourself as a super power.

Hopefully that is somewhat fixed in Civ5. In Civ4 it often took ages to fulfill the win condition for a game that was really won already. At least only needing to capture capitals should make domination/conquest a bit quicker.And maybe space victory has gone back to launch now that it is possible to destroy spaceship parts en route to the capital. Hanging around defending for 10 turns after launch wasn't the most exciting thing either.
 
As people have said, the problem is that late game, the winner is already, more or less decided. This is because the advantages of all the previous ages have been accumulated and the difference between the strongest and weakest opponent is so vast. Playing on a harder difficulty level does not really help, as chances are you'll be crushed, either completely or to a point where a comeback is almost impossible.

The solution is to make ways in which the player order can be drastically shifted and where in the score/power/economic spectrum civs can move up or down 10 places. For this to work and actually make it possible to stage a comeback, it needs to be based on something different to the rest of the game. For example, corporations in BtS could have been used as a way for weaker, losing civs (less power, behind in the tech race, less land, less population) to overtake stronger rival civs. However, because acquiring corporations was based partly on technology and partly on GPP, it just gave another advantage to strong civs who would snatch up all the good corporations before their weaker neighbours had a chance.

What is needed is to give a bonus of some sort to civs who are losing in the later ages. The real trouble consists of devising a method in which the bonus is not so great that doing badly in ancient ages is, effectively rewarded, but still strong enough to give you the capability to at least challenge the stronger civs. This would be interesting for the human player for the following reason. If he is behind at this stage, it gives him a reason to not give up hope and the game, but carry on trying; and if he is ahead at this stage, gives him a reason to stay on his feet and fight off contenders.

I must admit, I have no idea what mechanism could achieve this. My first thought is to give civs which are losing badly a diplomatic bonus with each other, so that they can group together to try and stage a comeback. But this is effectively the same thing as giving a diplomatic penalty to civs for wining and brings back the Civ3 scenario where everyone would declare war on you in the modern age if you were wining, which felt very gamey.
Perhaps if you are in the bottom 25% of the civs when the civ who is leading technologically enters a new era you should recieve a free golden age or a free great person? That also feels gamey, and would not be satisfying if this happened to you as a human player.
What might just work is something similar to the quests in BtS. If they were only offered to civs who were behind, and could be completed realistically (unlike, say, the holy mountain one. Did anyone ever actually find that mountain?) and gave a large bonus, as well as unlocking another quest with the potential for another reward.

Example (set in the Civ4 world), you are 2nd to last in the tech race and generally doing badly. You have only just researched Assembly line while the leading civs recently acquired Industrialism. You, get the following quest offered to you:
"The world's workshop. As a source of cheap labour, companies from the developed world are wanting to use your population to produce goods to ship them back to their home cities. Build a factory in 33% of your cities to receive one of the two following bonuses:
+100% to all trade routes for 30 turns
or
Receive a Great Engineer and a golden age"

You then do the following, pick the trade route bonus and now have a massive cash surplus and use it to raise your slider by 20%. At the same point you get the following quest:
"Rise to Power. Happy of the services you are providing to them, foreign companies want to invest even more in your cities. Have a factory in 66% of your cities to receive the following bonus:
Learn all techs which are (at this point) known by at least two over civs"
And boom, you've caught up with the rest of the world, and have lots of factories giving you the ability to build a decent army and get the land/population you need to make sure you dont lose this advantage again.

This is still quite gamey, but I hope more fun. One could say its even realistic by saying it is how China/India/Brazil quickly grew out of poverty at the turn of this century.



tl:dr
You could imagine a whole range of quests similar to this for different eras, each with the aim of making it possible for a civ who is behind at the start of one of the later eras to take over from the leaders. That will add the unpredictability which is sorely lacking in the end game of Civ4/Civ5. I'm not saying that quests are the right way to do that, something more passive may be better, but there needs to be some mechanism to shuffle around the world order, and it needs to only be very slightly biased in favour of the civs currently winning.
 
I've thought of this too, I've always wondered what it'll be like to be in the medieval, ancient, renaissance or industrial era the whole game
 
As people have said, the problem is that late game, the winner is already, more or less decided. This is because the advantages of all the previous ages have been accumulated and the difference between the strongest and weakest opponent is so vast. Playing on a harder difficulty level does not really help, as chances are you'll be crushed, either completely or to a point where a comeback is almost impossible.

The solution is to make ways in which the player order can be drastically shifted and where in the score/power/economic spectrum civs can move up or down 10 places. For this to work and actually make it possible to stage a comeback, it needs to be based on something different to the rest of the game. For example, corporations in BtS could have been used as a way for weaker, losing civs (less power, behind in the tech race, less land, less population) to overtake stronger rival civs. However, because acquiring corporations was based partly on technology and partly on GPP, it just gave another advantage to strong civs who would snatch up all the good corporations before their weaker neighbours had a chance.

What is needed is to give a bonus of some sort to civs who are losing in the later ages. The real trouble consists of devising a method in which the bonus is not so great that doing badly in ancient ages is, effectively rewarded, but still strong enough to give you the capability to at least challenge the stronger civs. This would be interesting for the human player for the following reason. If he is behind at this stage, it gives him a reason to not give up hope and the game, but carry on trying; and if he is ahead at this stage, gives him a reason to stay on his feet and fight off contenders.

I must admit, I have no idea what mechanism could achieve this. My first thought is to give civs which are losing badly a diplomatic bonus with each other, so that they can group together to try and stage a comeback. But this is effectively the same thing as giving a diplomatic penalty to civs for wining and brings back the Civ3 scenario where everyone would declare war on you in the modern age if you were wining, which felt very gamey.
Perhaps if you are in the bottom 25% of the civs when the civ who is leading technologically enters a new era you should recieve a free golden age or a free great person? That also feels gamey, and would not be satisfying if this happened to you as a human player.
What might just work is something similar to the quests in BtS. If they were only offered to civs who were behind, and could be completed realistically (unlike, say, the holy mountain one. Did anyone ever actually find that mountain?) and gave a large bonus, as well as unlocking another quest with the potential for another reward.

Example (set in the Civ4 world), you are 2nd to last in the tech race and generally doing badly. You have only just researched Assembly line while the leading civs recently acquired Industrialism. You, get the following quest offered to you:
"The world's workshop. As a source of cheap labour, companies from the developed world are wanting to use your population to produce goods to ship them back to their home cities. Build a factory in 33% of your cities to receive one of the two following bonuses:
+100% to all trade routes for 30 turns
or
Receive a Great Engineer and a golden age"

You then do the following, pick the trade route bonus and now have a massive cash surplus and use it to raise your slider by 20%. At the same point you get the following quest:
"Rise to Power. Happy of the services you are providing to them, foreign companies want to invest even more in your cities. Have a factory in 66% of your cities to receive the following bonus:
Learn all techs which are (at this point) known by at least two over civs"
And boom, you've caught up with the rest of the world, and have lots of factories giving you the ability to build a decent army and get the land/population you need to make sure you dont lose this advantage again.

This is still quite gamey, but I hope more fun. One could say its even realistic by saying it is how China/India/Brazil quickly grew out of poverty at the turn of this century.



tl:dr
You could imagine a whole range of quests similar to this for different eras, each with the aim of making it possible for a civ who is behind at the start of one of the later eras to take over from the leaders. That will add the unpredictability which is sorely lacking in the end game of Civ4/Civ5. I'm not saying that quests are the right way to do that, something more passive may be better, but there needs to be some mechanism to shuffle around the world order, and it needs to only be very slightly biased in favour of the civs currently winning.

:agree: this too
 
What is needed is to give a bonus of some sort to civs who are losing in the later ages. The real trouble consists of devising a method in which the bonus is not so great that doing badly in ancient ages is, effectively rewarded, but still strong enough to give you the capability to at least challenge the stronger civs. This would be interesting for the human player for the following reason. If he is behind at this stage, it gives him a reason to not give up hope and the game, but carry on trying; and if he is ahead at this stage, gives him a reason to stay on his feet and fight off contenders.

I must admit, I have no idea what mechanism could achieve this. My first thought is to give civs which are losing badly a diplomatic bonus with each other, so that they can group together to try and stage a comeback. But this is effectively the same thing as giving a diplomatic penalty to civs for wining and brings back the Civ3 scenario where everyone would declare war on you in the modern age if you were wining, which felt very gamey.
I have an idea. ;) The game can be made more challenging by few ways. After every era computer checks the success rate of all countries. The AI of weaker civilizations will play much better like it does on higher difficulties. Though it won't get any bonuses but it will play more intelligently. Secondly tech transfer could be introduced within countries which have open borders like in Civ IV mod Total Realism. This would reduce the technology gap between different countries.
 
Yeah! Hope they introduce a freely selectable ending age. That way I don't have to bother with those Mechs ever. I could just end in the Middle Ages and be happy with it.

Also, I do hope they have thought about the colonization of other continents. I mean, Imperialism is a major and really important feature in World History and should also be reflected in Civilization. This could perhaps be achieved with using the new Puppet State feature in some way to simulate colonies and also make these Puppets economically very important to the Motherland.

There must be a major incentive to get the most advanced civs to start travel about the map during the Renaissance, Installing puppets and founding colonies.
 
I have an idea. ;) The game can be made more challenging by few ways. After every era computer checks the success rate of all countries. The AI of weaker civilizations will play much better like it does on higher difficulties. Though it won't get any bonuses but it will play more intelligently. Secondly tech transfer could be introduced within countries which have open borders like in Civ IV mod Total Realism. This would reduce the technology gap between different countries.

The problem is the AI doesn't get smarter in higher difficulties; they just get unfair bonuses over you and destroy you because of a superior unit production speed/tech rate. Secondly, what if all civs hate you when you're behind them? Therefore, no open borders, and no tech trade...
 
The problem is the AI doesn't get smarter in higher difficulties; they just get unfair bonuses over you and destroy you because of a superior unit production speed/tech rate. Secondly, what if all civs hate you when you're behind them? Therefore, no open borders, and no tech trade...
This time around Firax have promised a better AI thats why said that. Hopefully this time on higher difficulties AI would organize his armies in much better way than before. And since religion/civics is gone so no stupid diplomatic penalties would be there. So most of the time people around you won't hate you unless you irritate them.
 
Well yes, of course, the best way to make the game more challenging is to make the AI more clever. That, however, is incredibly difficult to do.
 
I mostly find that part fun due to the way you can expand your empire. Post-Medieval Age the map is sorta filled out though. The game really needs a colonization element, in my opinion. It'd spice up the later ages.

Eergh, no. I hate the expansion period, (everyone knows the period... that one just after Writing). I much prefer industrializing.
 
I agree the modern age really starts to drag. If you are still alive then there is often a point where it is all too easy to foresee how the game will unfold - either no one can stand in your way, or you are cowering in a corner clinging to life - either way, with all the extra units involved in the modern age it can become monotonous to play through a script that has a foregone conclusion.

The key, as mentioned above, is to spice it up without damaging the nice arc to the game, putting in a random factor that just feels cheap, or going back to having the world gang up on you, which was always unpleasant (but, again, predictable).

So here's a few suggestions, for what they're worth:

- As stated in a previous post, companies could be set up in a way that at times they give an advantage to small civs, or possibly a company could have a greater effect on a smaller civ, possibly by exploitig something unique to that civ.

- There could be very rare resources - maybe one on a globe, that are extremely valuable and can bring in a lot of gold very quickly to whoever has it, if/when it appears. Or maybe it causes an influx of population from neighbouring civs. This does have a random element to it, but it's not completely unrealistic, and stumbling across it is really the opposite side of the coin to realizing your only source of oil is in someone else's backyard.

- UN resolutions could offer bonuses to small civs, or penalities on big ones - like carbon taxes, or taking from the rich to pay the poor. Of course this would depend on diplomacy, so if the big boy on the block was unpopular, he could face sanctions and find some of his gold/resources going to help build projects in small civs. However, a big civ who has kept up good relations will still be able to use diplomacy to escape sanctions

- Similarly, there could be an arms control resolution .... hmmm, maybe that one is a bit TOO realistic.

- How about a world development bank, that can give one-time loans/gifts of gold for special projects in small civs

- Religion is getting the boot in Civ 5, but something along this line could be a dangerous surprise weapon. Imagine if under certain circumstances a civ could start up a cult, say, that would convert other cities, bringing them under its spell - that would be a weapon to watch out for even in the later stages.

- Maybe civs could get together to try to corner the market on certain resources, like OPEC, where a small group of countries can suddenly wield some influence by banding together.

Just some thoughts. It would be nice to find a way to keep the modern age as interesting as the beginning phases, so that even if you're ahead you need to keep on your toes, and if you're behind there's always that Hail Mary pass out there somewhere.
 
We've all got good idea's about this, but HOW should we do to make the civ-crew focus on this??

This will probably just go unnoticed and forgotten later, and the crew might never find out?

Is there any way to reach out to THEM so there will be a small chance (at least..) or getting this feature in civ 5? (or expansion..?)
 
Support the "cap-on-age" option. I would play a lot with it.

The feature would clearly lead to some imbalance (i.e. America will be much weaker if the science tree would stop before B-52)

True, but this is the only problem that should be fixed. Americans could receive another special unit, the french cultural bonus (who stops with coal i think) would end earlier, etc... out of this and the space victory, it would be the same. The U.N. also could be replaced by something else.
As people have said, the problem is that late game, the winner is already, more or less decided. This is because the advantages of all the previous ages have been accumulated and the difference between the strongest and weakest opponent is so vast. Playing on a harder difficulty level does not really help, as chances are you'll be crushed, either completely or to a point where a comeback is almost impossible.

The solution is to make ways in which the player order can be drastically shifted and where in the score/power/economic spectrum civs can move up or down 10 places. For this to work and actually make it possible to stage a comeback, it needs to be based on something different to the rest of the game. For example, corporations in BtS could have been used as a way for weaker, losing civs (less power, behind in the tech race, less land, less population) to overtake stronger rival civs. However, because acquiring corporations was based partly on technology and partly on GPP, it just gave another advantage to strong civs who would snatch up all the good corporations before their weaker neighbours had a chance.

What is needed is to give a bonus of some sort to civs who are losing in the later ages. The real trouble consists of devising a method in which the bonus is not so great that doing badly in ancient ages is, effectively rewarded, but still strong enough to give you the capability to at least challenge the stronger civs. This would be interesting for the human player for the following reason. If he is behind at this stage, it gives him a reason to not give up hope and the game, but carry on trying; and if he is ahead at this stage, gives him a reason to stay on his feet and fight off contenders.

I must admit, I have no idea what mechanism could achieve this. My first thought is to give civs which are losing badly a diplomatic bonus with each other, so that they can group together to try and stage a comeback. But this is effectively the same thing as giving a diplomatic penalty to civs for wining and brings back the Civ3 scenario where everyone would declare war on you in the modern age if you were wining, which felt very gamey.
Perhaps if you are in the bottom 25% of the civs when the civ who is leading technologically enters a new era you should recieve a free golden age or a free great person? That also feels gamey, and would not be satisfying if this happened to you as a human player.
What might just work is something similar to the quests in BtS. If they were only offered to civs who were behind, and could be completed realistically (unlike, say, the holy mountain one. Did anyone ever actually find that mountain?) and gave a large bonus, as well as unlocking another quest with the potential for another reward.

Example (set in the Civ4 world), you are 2nd to last in the tech race and generally doing badly. You have only just researched Assembly line while the leading civs recently acquired Industrialism. You, get the following quest offered to you:
"The world's workshop. As a source of cheap labour, companies from the developed world are wanting to use your population to produce goods to ship them back to their home cities. Build a factory in 33% of your cities to receive one of the two following bonuses:
+100% to all trade routes for 30 turns
or
Receive a Great Engineer and a golden age"

You then do the following, pick the trade route bonus and now have a massive cash surplus and use it to raise your slider by 20%. At the same point you get the following quest:
"Rise to Power. Happy of the services you are providing to them, foreign companies want to invest even more in your cities. Have a factory in 66% of your cities to receive the following bonus:
Learn all techs which are (at this point) known by at least two over civs"
And boom, you've caught up with the rest of the world, and have lots of factories giving you the ability to build a decent army and get the land/population you need to make sure you dont lose this advantage again.

This is still quite gamey, but I hope more fun. One could say its even realistic by saying it is how China/India/Brazil quickly grew out of poverty at the turn of this century.



tl:dr
You could imagine a whole range of quests similar to this for different eras, each with the aim of making it possible for a civ who is behind at the start of one of the later eras to take over from the leaders. That will add the unpredictability which is sorely lacking in the end game of Civ4/Civ5. I'm not saying that quests are the right way to do that, something more passive may be better, but there needs to be some mechanism to shuffle around the world order, and it needs to only be very slightly biased in favour of the civs currently winning.

You talk about a diplomatic bonus for the losing civs toward each other. Why not allowing more than two civs to make a definitive alliance? The more allieds you have in the end, the smaller would be your score (or something like this) So we would try to share the victory the less possible and winning civs would wait the last moment to make alliances, if any, when losing ones would face reality much earlier and look for allieds. (prefering a shared victory to total defeat) Maybe nobody cares about the score but i'd like a mechanism like this one, cause lost games would stay interesting till the end and "won" ones too.
 
I mostly find that part fun due to the way you can expand your empire. Post-Medieval Age the map is sorta filled out though. The game really needs a colonization element, in my opinion. It'd spice up the later ages.

They could implement this by expanding the map to include a new continent once you hit the Renassiance and research Astronomy (or something). Of course, this is Eurocentric and wouldn't work on the Earth map, but it could definitely be used in a random map.
 
Support the "cap-on-age" option. I would play a lot with it.



True, but this is the only problem that should be fixed. Americans could receive another special unit, the french cultural bonus (who stops with coal i think) would end earlier, etc... out of this and the space victory, it would be the same. The U.N. also could be replaced by something else.


You talk about a diplomatic bonus for the losing civs toward each other. Why not allowing more than two civs to make a definitive alliance? The more allieds you have in the end, the smaller would be your score (or something like this) So we would try to share the victory the less possible and winning civs would wait the last moment to make alliances, if any, when losing ones would face reality much earlier and look for allieds. (prefering a shared victory to total defeat) Maybe nobody cares about the score but i'd like a mechanism like this one, cause lost games would stay interesting till the end and "won" ones too.

Well Civ4 had permanent alliances as an option when starting a new game which did exactly what you described. Problem was that it was open to everybody and you often got the case where the leading player would ally with the second or 3rd player creating an unbeatable mass. You could have the option locked and only available to "losing" civs. Problem is that would be infuriating if you're just above the cut out line, the game would say "sorry, you've been really good at diplomacy, a bit too good in fact for you to be allowed to form permanent alliances".
 
U.N. would have to be replaced by something else for the diplomatic victory. And should we still be able to reach, say, democracy in Renaissance? Antique Athene was quite a democracy. Also if civics are in other tech trees now... Knights defending a republic sound a bit like Star Wars but i'd go for it.

Well Civ4 had permanent alliances as an option when starting a new game which did exactly what you described. Problem was that it was open to everybody and you often got the case where the leading player would ally with the second or 3rd player creating an unbeatable mass. You could have the option locked and only available to "losing" civs. Problem is that would be infuriating if you're just above the cut out line, the game would say "sorry, you've been really good at diplomacy, a bit too good in fact for you to be allowed to form permanent alliances".

True, alliances like 1st with 3rd were too powerful. It would be even worse with unlimited members. To avoid it and the "you're too strong to ally" thing, there could be a way, with score or something, so that not sharing victory too much would be important. So only hopeless civs would form early large alliances, and the strong would wait more and only ally with one or two.
 
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