Great Person Buildings

AgentTBC said:

Dudu42: Have you considered that the Citadel gives a 100% defense bonus... and a Fort with a nearby Chinese Great General gives a 95% defense bonus? Plus the 45% attack bonus? Plus the GGs radius is 2 hexes in every direction and he can move if he has to run away, or after the position is no longer necessary?

A 100% defense bonus just doesn't seem worth it to me when a regular fort + great general is nearly as good, and is probably better when you're talking about a Chinese great general.

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You're forgeting about damage.

3 damage is pretty weak, but it damages EVERYTHING around it. Considering almost every tiles had a british troop, that was a lot. The Cho ko Nu in my city could kill the weakened musketeers (or rifleman, I dont remember, but Im almost sure they were musk). Usually, its better to weak 2 units than kill one and let the other full. The weakened units had no chance against the pike and were easy spot for Cho Ko Nu.

You should see 5+ units taking 3 damage per turn at the same time. Of course, if the AI knew to use the water (and Im talking about Elizabeth, who should use water a lot) they could avoid the fortress. So maybe fortress are useless against a human player...

I feel the Great Person buildings are very weak - they just provide too little compared to the alternatives.

They are a good idea, they just need a major tweak. The Academy should in the long run be significantly better than burning the scientist immediately (good things should come for those that wait). The manufactury, should rock, then a Great Engineer strategy might make an interesting option for production. The landmark, is again too weak to make it better than getting a Golden Age, the culture bomb however depends on whether there is a resource just over the border that you must have.

As for the Citadel...I've yet to build one...I agree with the poster that using the Great General with the defender and a fort does a great job and that I like keeping open the option of having a golden age, that is lost as soon as the citadel is bought. Personally, I've also found the AI very willing to embark to go around bottlenecks. Their problem is the production rates for units mean that the AI eventually run out of units are are then screwed.

AgentTBC said:

On pure number of beakers over the course of the game, yeah, you can end up ahead if you build an academy earlier. But even then the advantage of being able to select a tech instantly is likely significantly more advantages than a 1% increase in your beaker total spread through the rest of the game. All of the beakers from popping the tech show up instantly. And, of course, you've got to work the tile for the Academy which means you aren't working some OTHER tile or running a specialist. That's not a trivial cost.

But yeah, the earlier the scientist shows up the less bad the Academy is. Ditto the Great Merchant where if he shows up any time except right at the beginning, making his building is a ridiculously bad idea.

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You should put the Academy on a bunch of cows or deer.

Why you would put it on a tile with the lowest baseyield, instead of the highest baseyield is beyond me.

King_Course said:

You should put the Academy on a bunch of cows or deer.

Why you would put it on a tile with the lowest baseyield, instead of the highest baseyield is beyond me.

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You're right of course.

If only I could put a farm on my cow

Citadels are very useful in certain situations. Landmarks built by Great Artist can be useful I think but the improvements of Great Scientists, Merchants & Engineers are pretty useless compared to their other uses.

I think that pretty much covers it. I will give the Citadels another look; perhaps I am underestimating the usefulness of the -3 damage to adjacent enemies. The 100% defense bonus is a little underwhelming by itself since a regular fort + great general gives 75% and the great general gives attack bonus as well, in a radius, and can move. The landmark can be situationally useful.

ALL OTHERS = FAIL.

AgentTBC said:

I think that pretty much covers it. I will give the Citadels another look; perhaps I am underestimating the usefulness of the -3 damage to adjacent enemies.

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The citadel can be brilliant, but things have to be right. I had a map where I shared my peninsula with a Civ I forget because I wiped them out very quickly, then blockaded the access with two citadels on both ends of a mountain range. This was as England, where I had longbowmen backing them up. Nothing could touch me. In a different game as China, I used citadels to block the passes through a long, long mountain chain. Amazing.

Once (if) they fix the AI, the usefulness will go done slightly -- haven't seen the AI try to invade from the sea yet -- but in the right place at the right time, they're great.

I agree with several who've posted that burning the specialists tends to be better (even in the long-run) than constructing special buildings--the exception is the Great General, who's nice to carry around on fighting missions. Just make sure you protect him, as despite all his armor he can't fight back against even a lowly warrior.

Only one I see as being more useful than the other ability is the artist's, because the culture bomb is extremely situational.

I'd like it the artist could be adjacent to one of your tiles instead of having to be within borders, personally.

Likewise. And on an abstract level it just doesn't make sense--how can an artist convince the mining operation of Russia to hand itself over to the glorious Siamese empire? Artists are much more political in this game than in real life.

The paintbrush is mightier than the sword! Why? Because a paintbrush started the war! Right after triggering a culture bomb, reporters stated that Czarina Catherine visited Ramkhamheng and declared war on him!

Morningcalm said:

Artists are much more political in this game than in real life.

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This comment makes me think of the FBI claiming John Lennon was a threat to national security. I agree though, either in a game, or in real life, its pretty silly.

King_Course said:

You should put the Academy on a bunch of cows or deer.

Why you would put it on a tile with the lowest baseyield, instead of the highest baseyield is beyond me.

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Bananas would be the best choice, since putting a plantation on bananas actually makes the tile worse (as it nerfs production).

Culture Bomb can be REALLY nice in certain situations. Here are a couple I've had:

1) A lot of times, I've had Oil, Coal, Uranium or Aluminum appear/be discovered just outside the borders of my Empire. But too far for me to expect Culture to naturally engulf it anytime in the future. I've used Culture Bomb to reach those resources. You can also do it just to grab a Luxury resource, but that might be a bit of a waste. I've had to do this a couple of games where I didn't have something I needed, and nobody was willing to trade with me.

2) This is also sort of specific but if you don't have open borders, you can use it to block people. I was on an Archipelago map and I blocked the two hex space between two loooooong skinny landmasses with a culture bomb, which forced people to take a long long route around. I don't guess it's that important, but I enjoyed it.

They're all highly situational, really. Near the end of the game, I just start gobbling them up for golden ages, hurling great person after great person into the hungry maw of my empire, sacrificing them to the fires of progress.

Culture Bomb's radius is still MEH though. I agree it might be useful in certain situations, but good luck finding them. I've never seen a situation where I needed/wanted to use one as a Bomb.

And Great Artists being used this way in V is sillier than in IV, even--in IV, the Great Artist border bomb made sense because you were culturally converting the cities at a certain rate (if your culture was high enough)--including annexed enemy cities. In V, not so much. The overall concept is missing, and so people seeing a "Culture Bomb" for the first time in Civ will be thinking like this:

Vordeo said:

Only one I see as being more useful than the other ability is the artist's, because the culture bomb is extremely situational.

I'd like it the artist could be adjacent to one of your tiles instead of having to be within borders, personally.

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Agree. Right now the artist behaves like a badass commando unit, which you have to infiltrate into enemy land.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Great Scientists are BORING when used for slingshots.

Believe me, I understand and have practiced slingshot games but honestly with as easy as it has been to climb to Immortal in CiV, I almost feel it to be an exploit. It's just not fair. Furthermore, coupling that industrial slingshot with Marilame states really pushes the boundaries of exploitation.
I know that technically, through definition, these are not exploits... but it feels around the same level of ease and cheese. Honestly I prefer to play the game WITHOUT sling-shots (and it is possible). I only pop single techs late game and settle most of my early game scientists simply because it's a more challenging method of gameplay and forces city specialization (which I love).

Also, if I play with City States enabled, I only ally with one of each kind. I refuse to double Marilame states.

ONE THING people fail to take into account is the ease with which a civ can grab education and really harbor the benefits of settled scientists through universities. Also National College should be taken into account, which brings the total to +10 science per scientist per turn.

HOWEVER, the two biggest problems are that settled scientists really aren't that much better than Rationalist trading posts on a jungle, which are surprisingly easy to attain, and that they don't pay off enough in the long run. With a bonus of +6 science instead of +5 I think settled scientists would be slightly more attractive. It bordering on excessive.


*edit*

I feel as if Great Merchants and Great Engineers are too hard to get to be of any use, and their buildings leave something to be desired (particularly the engineer).

If you put a mine on a hill you get +3 production. If you put a mine on an Iron Hill, you get +5 production. If you put a great engineer on a hill you get +5 production.

If you mine Gems on a river, you get 7 gold. If you erect (lol) a plantation on a river, you get 4 gold. If you settle a great Merchant on a river, you get +5 gold.

See what I'm saying? The bonuses just aren't extravagant enough to warrant even bothering to produce these specialists, not to mention settling them. Thankfully the engineer specialist is being buff, let's see about the Merchant. THEN their buildings as well. And then possibly the Merchant's trade route...

Dudu42 said:

Ok, now I disagree.

Fortress ROCK. They're just very situational.

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Agree 100%. If you have a control point where the enemy has to funnel into your territory, fortresses are awesome. I'll specifically build cities that take advantage of mountains, particularly if it is an outlying city that is in between another civ. 2-3 adjacent units that are on guard... impenetrable.

The Landmark is exceptional when you are going for a cultural victory. My main cultural city will have 6-8 of these puppies, raking in tons of culture.

The GMerchant building is pretty useless, imho, particularly since the benefits of a city-state trade route are so nice.

Jharii said:

The GMerchant building is pretty useless, imho, particularly since the benefits of a city-state trade route are so nice.

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Merchant means only one thing to me: Golden Age. The other bonuses are meh.

Scientist can also give GA, but slingshoting through Eras makes them - maybe - the best great people out there.

About Landmarks... Ill give it a chance. Sounds promising.

Asylumer said:

The full bonus may be late game but your example of 1800 science costs are only seen with the introduction of Electricity which has a base cost of 1900. If you get a GS during the earlier turns you'd see costs more around the lines of 440 (education) and 680 (gunpowder). In the long-term you could still end up ahead by using the GS to build an academy... discounting any sling-shot strategies of course.

Late game however there's practically no reason to build the Academy as you'll never catch up to the 3300 techs near the end before the game is over.

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Education is 440, and so would take 88 turns for an academy to equal to. However, it's worse than that, because that's only when you'd make up the science cost, what about 88 turns of being behind as it is? You'd have put that science into use building things and USING the tech you go.

The citadel is very situational, the others are useless (perhaps except a landmark early, or when going for an achievement, i.e. Bollywood).