Warmongering penalty

This is my first attempt at domination victory. I understand the basic principle of warmongering point/penalty, but I have a few Q to clear some things up.

1. Some turns when i'm at war, i hover the enemy cities. In some turn, it says minor, the next turn it says major. Some turn it's the other way around. Or some turn it's major then the next turn it's extreme. I rechecked the the game, if any city was founded or not. It's not. How does it goes up and down when it's the same city?

2. When it says minor/major/extreme, does it mean my total point or the point of capturing that certain city?

3. I got major liberation bonus. Why does when i hover the leaders attitude, some still have the same bright red warmongering dislike/hate towards me? Do I have to wait a few rounds?

4. Can it be negative? I wage war against Egypt who captured some of Attila's cities. Hun cities are in my ways to Egypt. So is it better to capture Ramesess' Cities THEN liberate all Attila cities (except his capital of course) or it's the same. My simple logic tells me that it's better to have +200 then -200 (=0) than -200 (can't be negative so it's still 0) +200 = +200

5. Is the penalty/bonus instant? For example i capture and liberate two cities in the same round. Is it better to wait for some round to pass?

Thank you for helping me bring dark age to the world

I will volunteer how I think it works, and maybe others will correct/clarify.

1. There are only three tiers (minor/major/extreme) when it is actually a more-or-less continuous range of integer values. The city must be right at the value between minor and major. I have never seen a city fluctuate between major and extreme.
   
   
2. Capturing that certain city. I wish there was an easy way to expose your running total. I guess that would be a little too gamish.
   
   
3. The major liberation bonus was not enough to undue the hate. Liberating as a green modifier only ever shows up with the civ you liberated. Liberating does reduce your warmonger score, but the effects are obscured.
   
   
4. I am pretty sure the warmonger penalty is only ever a penalty, and that any points past zero are lost. So, as with your example, if I am going to liberate cities, I do that after taking the cap and other cities that I want to keep. Liberating cities acquired in a peace deal seems to work well for this too. Also, if I am going to kill off a civ, I try for that last city to be a captured CS or a third civ that I can then Recall to Life. That seems to help quite a bit. I think the tactic might avoid the Extreme warmonger penalty entirely.
   
   
5. Yes, the penalty/bonus is instant. So no reason to stretch it out between turns.

Valmighty said:

This is my first attempt at domination victory. I understand the basic principle of warmongering point/penalty, but I have a few Q to clear some things up.

1. Some turns when i'm at war, i hover the enemy cities. In some turn, it says minor, the next turn it says major. Some turn it's the other way around. Or some turn it's major then the next turn it's extreme. I rechecked the the game, if any city was founded or not. It's not. How does it goes up and down when it's the same city?

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The amount of warmonger hate that capturing a city generates is based on # of cities in the world (the more cities there are, the less hate is generated by capturing any single city) as well as the # of cities the target civ has. (Taking a fringe city from a large sprawling empire generates much less hate that taking that civ's last city.)

2. When it says minor/major/extreme, does it mean my total point or the point of capturing that certain city?

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Points from capturing that city. But keep in mind not all civs will react to that penalty the same. The leaders have differing built-in levels of warmonger tolerance. In addition, if another civ is at war with the target civ, they're not as affected by the hate.

3. I got major liberation bonus. Why does when i hover the leaders attitude, some still have the same bright red warmongering dislike/hate towards me? Do I have to wait a few rounds?

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No, it takes effect immediately. It's just really really hard to reduce the AI's hate since there's so many ways to antagonize them. Also, keep in mind that the civ you liberated the city *from* isn't affected by the liberation bonus.

4. Can it be negative? I wage war against Egypt who captured some of Attila's cities. Hun cities are in my ways to Egypt. So is it better to capture Ramesess' Cities THEN liberate all Attila cities (except his capital of course) or it's the same. My simple logic tells me that it's better to have +200 then -200 (=0) than -200 (can't be negative so it's still 0) +200 = +200

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FWIW, the warmonger number *is* negative. So at 0 you have no hate, and at -10000 you're the next Hitler. And I'm pretty sure you can't get positive hate, so starting your war with liberations is pointless, from a warmongering hate perspective.

beetle] Also, if I am going to kill off a civ, I try for that last city to be a captured CS or a third civ that I can then Recall to Life. That seems to help quite a bit. I think the tactic might avoid the Extreme warmonger penalty entirely.

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It doesn't just "help"... it completely transforms the (substantial) hate from capturing the last city into a moderate bonus.

Also, if I am going to kill off a civ, I try for that last city to be a captured CS or a third civ that I can then Recall to Life. That seems to help quite a bit. I think the tactic might avoid the Extreme warmonger penalty entirely.

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This is a very common tactic I use, as well as dropping cities' hp to 1 so that CS or other civs can easily capture last city.
Also, as long as other civs are fighting the same war as allies, your allies don't care about warmonger hate against common enemies.

Nice little tricks to keep my friends forever.

Thanks guys! Very helpful.

I now wait for some warmonger to wage war and genocide some civ. Then he will be the next hated civ in the world and everybody DoW him, then i'll take his capital.

I have this war deal with Elizabeth to attack Atilla. I forgot that deal, suddenly Eliz tells me the time has come. So i go to war with her. I didn't position my troops there because i want it to be captured by Maya or Arab who are also at war with him.

But then I hover Atilla's Court, oh it's minor. So i checked my last autosave, it's exactly before that turn, so i reload and position my troops there. Than bam, the war comes, and Atilla's Court has now MAJOR penalty.

How does this happen?? It's not even at different round. It's the same round, same city, same total cities.

I sometimes think Civ5 should be named Schroedinger's Civ

Oh, next Q.

Does the penalty also occur to the one we go to war with? On deal or not.

Valmighty said:

How does this happen?? It's not even at different round. It's the same round, same city, same total cities.

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I would worry too much about the pop-up text saying MINOR or MAJOR. Either you want the city or not. It should be pretty rare for the penalty tier to be the deciding factor for you. As I wrote before, the score itself has a wide range, and the per-city textual characterization is a generalization.

You could be adding a MAJOR penalty to a clear record and be in much better shape than adding a MINOR penalty to a terrible warmonger score. The penalties are cumulative.

Valmighty said:

Does the penalty also occur to the one we go to war with? On deal or not.

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Yes, which seems quite counterintuitive. Civ A invites you to DOW civ B with them -- then civ A hates you for being a warmonger! There is a mitigating factor for being at war with the same enemy though, but that is independent of a deal to war. Defensive Pacts work the same way, which is to say they count the same as any other DOW.

I see. Thanks. This is first emperor game also my first dom victory attempt. I have to deal with happiness so i don't want anybody to be angry at me. I need some of the civ to to trade their lux with me.