God of the Sea

kaspergm · Oct 17, 2015

docbud said:
I'm wondering why I thought it was culture and faith.

Ah yes, I understand why you would then find it harder to decide. Actually Earth Mother is a rather marginal pantheon, so I wouldn't mind seeing it spices up a bit, albeit culture and faith on top of Salt's ridiculous owerpowerednes as it stands probably would be a bad idea.

Browd · Oct 17, 2015

docbud said:
Maybe I was thinking the gold and silver one or something? I know something gives one of each.

Yeah, there are two pantheons that give both culture and faith -- one for sources of gold and silver (Religious Idols) and the other for sources of wine and incense (Goddess of Festivals). Both are good because they don't require the source luxury to be improved, but also kind of suck because you might not otherwise want to work those tiles early game (wine and particularly incense can spawn on poor tiles).

docbud · Oct 17, 2015

^^Yeah--those two. But I could've sworn that when I had the option to choose Earth Mother that 1 culture and 1 faith was shown. Maybe a bug showing that? I could've sworn all this time that Earth Mother was showing 1 or each.

So far as wine and incense--I hate those starts.

docbud · Oct 17, 2015

Update: Just started a game with salt. And I was wrong. It's only one faith for Mother Earth.

I have no idea why I kept thinking otherwise

ThorHammerz · Oct 17, 2015

kaspergm said:
I actually think Salt *can* spawn on Desert tiles, it's just not the most likely scenario. Don't have game files at hand to verify this at the moment, however.

EDIT> Yes:

Spoiler :

Code:

<Row> <ResourceType>RESOURCE_SALT</ResourceType> <TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType> </Row> <Row> <ResourceType>RESOURCE_SALT</ResourceType> <TerrainType>TERRAIN_DESERT</TerrainType> </Row> <Row> <ResourceType>RESOURCE_SALT</ResourceType> <TerrainType>TERRAIN_TUNDRA</TerrainType> </Row>

You are correct in that salt does spawn on desert tiles (and from what I see, a diverse range of terrain as well).

However, the data in the XML does not actually get loaded into the game, that stuff is hard coded (with some variations from what you find in the XML) within AssignStartingPlots.lua

Spoiler :

Code:

	self.luxury_region_weights[1] = {			-- Tundra
	{self.fur_ID,		40},
	{self.whale_ID,		35},
	{self.crab_ID,		30},
	{self.silver_ID,	25},
	{self.copper_ID,	15},
	[B]{self.salt_ID,		15},[/B]
	{self.gems_ID,		05},
	{self.dye_ID,		05},	};

	self.luxury_region_weights[2] = {			-- Jungle
	{self.cocoa_ID,		35},
	{self.citrus_ID,	35},
	{self.spices_ID,	30},
	{self.gems_ID,		20},
	{self.sugar_ID,		20},
	{self.pearls_ID,	20},
	{self.copper_ID,	05},
	{self.truffles_ID,	05},
	{self.crab_ID,		05},
	{self.silk_ID,		05},
	{self.dye_ID,		05},	};
	
	self.luxury_region_weights[3] = {			-- Forest
	{self.dye_ID,		30},
	{self.silk_ID,		30},
	{self.truffles_ID,	30},
	{self.fur_ID,		10},
	{self.spices_ID,	10},
	{self.citrus_ID,	05},
	[B]{self.salt_ID,		05},[/B]
	{self.copper_ID,	05},
	{self.cocoa_ID,		05},
	{self.crab_ID,		10},
	{self.whale_ID,		10},
	{self.pearls_ID,	10},	};
	
	self.luxury_region_weights[4] = {			-- Desert
	{self.incense_ID,	35},
	[B]{self.salt_ID,		15},[/B]
	{self.gold_ID,		25},
	{self.copper_ID,	10},
	{self.cotton_ID,	15},
	{self.sugar_ID,		15},
	{self.pearls_ID,	05},
	{self.citrus_ID,	05},	};
	
	self.luxury_region_weights[5] = {			-- Hills
	{self.gold_ID,		30},
	{self.silver_ID,	30},
	{self.copper_ID,	30},
	{self.gems_ID,		15},
	{self.pearls_ID,	15},
	{self.salt_ID,		10},
	{self.crab_ID,		10},
	{self.whale_ID,		10},	};
	
	self.luxury_region_weights[6] = {			-- Plains
	{self.ivory_ID,		35},
	{self.wine_ID,		35},
	[B]{self.salt_ID,		25},[/B]
	{self.incense_ID,	10},
	{self.spices_ID,	05},
	{self.whale_ID,		05},
	{self.pearls_ID,	05},
	{self.crab_ID,		05},
	{self.truffles_ID,	05},
	{self.gold_ID,		05},	};
	
	self.luxury_region_weights[7] = {			-- Grass
	{self.cotton_ID,	30},
	{self.silver_ID,	20},
	{self.sugar_ID,		20},
	{self.copper_ID,	20},
	{self.crab_ID,		20},
	{self.pearls_ID,	10},
	{self.whale_ID,		10},
	{self.cocoa_ID,		10},
	{self.truffles_ID,	05},
	{self.spices_ID,	05},
	{self.gems_ID,		05},	};
	
	self.luxury_region_weights[8] = {			-- Hybrid
	{self.ivory_ID,		15},
	{self.cotton_ID,	15},
	{self.wine_ID,		15},
	{self.silver_ID,	10},
	[B]{self.salt_ID,		15},[/B]
	{self.copper_ID,	20},
	{self.whale_ID,		20},
	{self.pearls_ID,	20},
	{self.crab_ID,		20},
	{self.truffles_ID,	10},
	{self.cocoa_ID,		10},
	{self.spices_ID,	05},
	{self.sugar_ID,		05},
	{self.citrus_ID,	05},
	{self.incense_ID,	05},
	{self.silk_ID,		05},
	{self.gems_ID,		05},
	{self.gold_ID,		05},	};

Looks like salt can spawn (with varying chances of probability) in:
- Tundra
- Desert
- Plains
- Forest
- Hybrid (whatever the hell this is supposed to mean).

kaspergm · Oct 18, 2015

ThorHammerz said:
Looks like salt can spawn (with varying chances of probability) in:
- Tundra
- Desert
- Plains
- Forest
- Hybrid (whatever the hell this is supposed to mean).

I think we're talking two different aspects here. The data you list refers to map regions - i.e. map is divided into a region based on the most dominant terrain, so if a region has a lot of desert tile, map maker will determine this region to be a desert region (suitable for a civ with desert start bias to start in). The game will then choose a lux resource from the list to be exclusive to this region - but notice that the desert list holds "pearls" as an option, which obviously does not mean that pearls will spawn on desert tiles themselves, since pearls only spawn on water tiles.

The data I listed controls which type of terrain the resource can actually spawn on (within the region). Thus, salt can spawn on a desert tile within a desert region, or it can spawn on a plains tile within a desert region, but it cannot spawn on a grass tile in a desert region. Likewise salt can spawn on a plains tile in a forest region, but it can't appear in a jungle region because it's not on the jungle region list (at least not as primary lux, sometimes an additional lux is thrown in to balance out smaller or less fertile regions, I don't remember if those luxes respect above lists).

Btw. a hybrid region is one that holds a more or less equal blend of multiple terrain types without any strong majority of one type, if I'm not mistaken.

beetle · Oct 19, 2015

The recent Immortal Challenge Line-up Game #40 Carthage is a terrific GotS start.

Starting location screen shot:

Spoiler :

What you see is a fish and two whales (good enough), but if you SIP there are a couple more whales too! Also you have forests, so you can chop out your work boats while getting GotS online, and then GotS takes care of early production from there.

I recommend full Liberty using, GPr for finisher so you can keep GotS all game long...

I hard built GrLH, Pyramids, and Oracle, then went on to conqueror my continent. It is a fun map!

Sclb · Oct 19, 2015

If you have at least 5 or more fish/crab/whale/pearl etc. You rush optics and buy lighthouse and it's an insane start. However GotS is still situational and needs way too much hammer for such start. And you will lose the pantheon if you don't found a religion, especially on deity. For example on the DCL#3, I had 8 sea resource tiles near the start, took GotS, didn't found, and lost the pantheon quickly to Persia's religion with pagodas.

ShakaKhan · Oct 19, 2015

GOTS works pretty well with the right Venetian start

GenuineRisk · Oct 19, 2015

Sclb said:
If you have at least 5 or more fish/crab/whale/pearl etc. You rush optics and buy lighthouse and it's an insane start. However GotS is still situational and needs way too much hammer for such start.

This is the problem with God of the Sea. The extra production could be great for early rush tactics (or even just plain early expansion) but the hammers involved in building work boats and a trireme to protect them make it impossible to use this way. Unless you have a faith natural wonder or SH that allow you to found a religion and keep it, you're pretty much just getting the hammers back for your work boats. Work boats are annoying so I guess that's not too bad, but I've never seriously considered getting GotS.

As far as non-FPT pantheons go, I think Goddess of the Hunt and Sun God are the best because they give you extra food when you need it the most - before Granaries and Civil Service. Sun God is OP with the right start.

beetle · Oct 21, 2015

GenuineRisk said:
This is the problem with God of the Sea. The extra production could be great for early rush tactics (or even just plain early expansion) but the hammers involved in building work boats and a trireme to protect them make it impossible to use this way.

With GotS and a Lighthouse, each sea resource only takes 15 turns to pay back its hammer cost -- and that payback window overlaps so its 15 total not 15 per workboat. So really not much of a delay to the early rush. And you can skip the defensive trireme: Barbs do not pillage workboats and you are bringing the war the AI.

Unless you have a faith natural wonder or SH that allow you to found a religion and keep it, you're pretty much just getting the hammers back for your work boats.

Your pantheon will last much longer than 15 turns, so not bad at all if you do not found. But I really like founding, so I would not be quick to give that up.

As far as non-FPT pantheons go, I think Goddess of the Hunt and Sun God are the best because they give you extra food when you need it the most - before Granaries and Civil Service..

I agree with you here, but in my experience starting dirt where I am equally torn between GotH and GotS are quite rare.

Volcanon · Oct 21, 2015

God of the sea is great if you're coastal and your capital has two whales and some fish.

Realistically you're always going to choose the pantheon that your ancient age empire can actually take advantage of. So if you have fish, get god of the sea. If you're on a desert, you won the lottery. If you're late to the game because it's a high difficulty level take god king or whatever else will give you *something*.

Seoul · Oct 23, 2015

It's not terrible, but not omfgbbqamazing either. Thing is you need to commit to getting faith without a pantheon if you do use it. High opportunity cost, but I do remember a multiplayer game I nabbed it early and the production boost gave me a massive advantage for classical warmongering, where I took out Poland with CBows and Swordsmen and snowballed out of control from there. Although I wasn't able to get a religion that game

I'd only get it with occasionally with byzantium bonus option or if I'm certain I can nab stonehenge. Or if I really want to kill someone early, and don't actually care about getting a religion.

KmDubya · Oct 23, 2015

The problem is that it requires fishing boats, which are expensive and not overly useful.

If you have Pearls its much better to go with Tears of the Gods for the +2 faith.

Might be OK with whales or lots of fish or if you have another way of generating faith. Japan could do well with it with certain maps and the free Samurai boat building but that comes pretty late.

Redaxe · Oct 23, 2015

Browd said:
Yeah, there are two pantheons that give both culture and faith -- one for sources of gold and silver (Religious Idols) and the other for sources of wine and incense (Goddess of Festivals). Both are good because they don't require the source luxury to be improved, but also kind of suck because you might not otherwise want to work those tiles early game (wine and particularly incense can spawn on poor tiles).

It's good when you can plant cities on hills with gold/silver because you essentially get the pantheon bonus for free.

I agree on Wine & Incense - the devs really undervalued the plantation luxury tiles. It's quite unfortunate and sloppy development really.

I always envisage having God of the Sea as Carthage and establishing a sprawling naval empire but alas my expo's always get converted to another religion and if I'm lucky enough to get enough faith to found a religion it's going to take me ages to convert my cities back - probably not until Industrial era....

Maybe Carthage on a sea map with lots of sea resources should open with Piety. If there are enough resources that would make Sea God is so strong then clearly it could be useful ignoring Tradition just to be able to get a religion to fully utilise that pantheon.

beetle · Oct 25, 2015

Redaxe said:
Maybe Carthage on a sea map with lots of sea resources should open with Piety. If there are enough resources that would make Sea God is so strong then clearly it could be useful ignoring Tradition just to be able to get a religion to fully utilise that pantheon.

Carthage, with the free harbors and city connections, does better than most civs going Liberty. If your culture if fast enough, you can use the Liberty finisher for GPr and locking ing GotS.

I actually think Liberty is more reliable for founding than Piety. Which just goes to show how weak is the Piety tree!

Seoul · Oct 26, 2015

I find Carthage is very effective if you play on a water map, and get messenger of the gods pantheon rather than god of the sea. It falls off later but it's very strong early science, and gives you a shot at some classical-era wonders (aside from oracle that the AI seems to hate anyways; you can usually get it for horsehockys and giggles with little opportunity cost even on deity) on immortal. Since messenger falls off later anyways, you don't need to keep the pantheon with your own religion so it's fine to just adopt some other scrub's religion later anyways, getting rid of your need for stonehenge or piety.

Just my 2 cents, but I don't think God of the Sea is very practical on Carthage.

Sclb · Oct 26, 2015

I've actually found that GotS is extremely good if you have a good coastal start on Byzantium. They can actually use the UA to pick a 2nd pantheon in this case GotS, while using the first pantheon for faith generation in order to found a religion.

I agree that MotG is basically a Carthage pantheon, not very useful for other civs either.

Seoul · Oct 26, 2015

Sclb said:
I've actually found that GotS is extremely good if you have a good coastal start on Byzantium. They can actually use the UA to pick a 2nd pantheon in this case GotS, while using the first pantheon for faith generation in order to found a religion.

I agree that MotG is basically a Carthage pantheon, not very useful for other civs either.

A good non-sacred sites Byzantium religion:

Faith Pantheon + Pagodas + Religious Community + God of the Sea / Guruship (Map dependent) + Itinerant Preachers (I personally don't like Religious Texts much). SO MUCH PRODUCTION.

But honestly I prefer nabbing Mosques + Pagodas or Pagodas + Religious Community if I do get a religion with good old Theodora, using the bonus belief just to outspeed the AI and prevent them from getting a tenet that I want.

Sclb · Oct 26, 2015

Usually grabbing double faith building follower belief isn't good idea unless you have piety discounts. It is difficult to generate that much faith to buy 2 buildings in every cities, before the price of building becomes too large due to tech advances. Pagoda + RC is very strong, as well as Pagoda + Swords into plowshare.

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Deity

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