How do you beat a great library rush?

I just started playing Civ 5 GK with some of my friends. They have been playing civ for quite a while and have worked out their builds pretty well, and obviously, they seem to do pretty well with their overall game.

One of my friends almost always rushes writing for the great library for the free tech, and he usually works it out so he can get free iron working. His GL is usually really fast. Then since he has some free tech, it seems like he ends up getting oracle for the free policy, and he just snowballs from there.

Do I try to kill him? If we're on separate continents and he does all this, how do I even catch up? It is so frustrating to feel like I can't even go the GL route when I play with him because he always beats me to it. It feels like I'm forced to go other ways.

Any suggestions?

Skidude04 said:

Do I try to kill him? If we're on separate continents and he does all this, how do I even catch up? It is so frustrating to feel like I can't even go the GL route when I play with him because he always beats me to it. It feels like I'm forced to go other ways.

Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

Early wonders rarely give you an auto win. You better expand fast and build the NC after 3 or 4 cities up. If you really want the GL, you must calculate at which turn you gonna get it. At quick speed, if you can't get it in 25 turns or less, it's surely a gamble.

Most of the time the best strategy is to NOT build early wonders. You obviously need practice, most of the time new players overestimate the value of world wonders.

If this is a 1v1, the GL can be an auto-win IF you went for the same strategy. If you ignore the GL entirely, it is possible that you would have a better empire overall, and you could slowly outpace him. Or if you rush units, you could raze everything he has and prevent his worker(s) from improving his city(ies). Eventually you will outpace him.

If this is a multiplayer game with many players (which would I assume be why you are on different continents), then there are many things you could do in addition to those suggested above, including diplomacy (gang up on him 3v1 or something) or conquering your continent (become 3 civs yourself, and 1v3 him that way).

You have to dedicate everything to getting the GL against others going for it if you want a chance:

* Pick Egypt as your Civ
* Tech Pottery>Writing immediately
* Choose Tradition then Aristocracy for the 15% wonder bonus
* Choose the pantheon that gives you ancient wonder bonus (forgotten the name)
* Hook up marble (if you have any)
* Chop nearby forest with worker(s) for extra hammers
* Switch city to production focus

But then you have to ask yourself, is it really worth all the dedication when you could be building more settlers / military?

The four city tradition strategy usually works best

I'm with those who advise the military approach. Rush him as hard and fast as you can. It sounds like you play repeated games. If you don't succeed with the rush the first time, you will sooner or later. If you do it often enough, he will have to adjust his initial play.

Otherwise Chee has all the race-to-the-wonder advice. The only other thing I could add is making sure you have the pre-req techs to get some juicy tech you want from the GL. Iron Working seems to be a popular choice.

I haven't played this strategy in awhile, but there are civs where rushing the HG is better than building GL or at least a good alternative. The food from HG and free garden will set up nicely for a science powerhouse city. Korea is the first to come to mind, not sure if you have the DLC. England works nicely too because it techs you towards Longbows.

Civologist said:

I haven't played this strategy in awhile, but there are civs where rushing the HG is better than building GL or at least a good alternative. The food from HG and free garden will set up nicely for a science powerhouse city. Korea is the first to come to mind, not sure if you have the DLC. England works nicely too because it techs you towards Longbows.

Click to expand...

I haven't built Hanging Gardens once since Gods and Kings as it just doesn't seem worth chasing now.

1v1 with no AIs is a little crazy at times because the Great Library is only "really" powerful if you can use the free tech to get something stupid, otherwise it's just a slightly more expensive Library, but seeing how you said he gets Ironworking with it... It's not that bad.

I'd practice being able to get it really quickly so that you might be able to beat him to it if you have a good start (marble/stones and a few forests to chop) so that you know how to put him off guard. Otherwise it mostly just adjusting your build orders to be efficient.

Other than that... The easiest way to beat a wonder spammer is to build up your economy with all the hammers you aren't using building wonders, be ruthless if you have any land borders with him or as greedy as he is and expand quicker than he could possibly hope for if you don't.

I know it's vague, but it's hard to tell where you could improve other than the fact that the wonders alone shouldn't be snowballing him as hard as you think.

I played many multiplayer games, and i believe GL is overrated. I prefer spend the hammer for expansion and swallow one or two cs early in the game.

Civking5 said:

I played many multiplayer games, and i believe GL is overrated. I prefer spend the hammer for expansion and swallow one or two cs early in the game.

Click to expand...

early wonders are very overrated, probably because they bump a persons score so much so it artificially causes people to believe they must be doing good. the only early wonder i think which can be very useful is the great wall, this can almost singlehandedly ensure that you don't have to worry about invasions until you tech dynamite (which you can avoid teching late into the game).

woodshadows said:

early wonders are very overrated, probably because they bump a persons score so much so it artificially causes people to believe they must be doing good. the only early wonder i think which can be very useful is the great wall, this can almost singlehandedly ensure that you don't have to worry about invasions until you tech dynamite (which you can avoid teching late into the game).

Click to expand...

I always thought it would make more sense if the great wall becomes obsolete for civs who have researched dynamite and are attacking you

woodshadows said:

early wonders are very overrated, probably because they bump a persons score so much so it artificially causes people to believe they must be doing good. the only early wonder i think which can be very useful is the great wall, this can almost singlehandedly ensure that you don't have to worry about invasions until you tech dynamite (which you can avoid teching late into the game).

Click to expand...

I totally agree with your comment on gr8 wall. In my last game, I had to fight against mongle player ( with all those fast Keshiks; attack and run, attack and run) and ge8 wall. It was hell.

I appreciate all the tips guys! I guess I didn't realize how much ppl think that early wonders aren't an advantage always. I'll just have to practice faster expos while he's wasting his 20-30 turns on the wonder. Good tips!

seancolorado said:

I always thought it would make more sense if the great wall becomes obsolete for civs who have researched dynamite and are attacking you

Click to expand...

it really would wouldn't it? i played one game OCC Deity as Catherine, I was building spaceship parts and the UN and hadn't teched artillery yet and as I had taken the pantheon for border growth, the wonder for border growth, tradition, and kreposts my borders were massive and with the great wall anyone foolish enough to walk into my territory was torn apart by range. great wall is really OP and extremely frustrating when you have a neighbour who builds it - it can completely stifle your growth and expansion trying to invade an opponent with the great wall.