SGOTM 21 - Phoenix Rising

There does seem to be a time around this point where barb units avoid your units if battles aren't in their favor, preferring entering borders. Still would be nice to get that kill, but it is still not a sure thing. We still have some scouting to do around there, and really need to keep that SW area around horses busted.

Is there food near those horses? Looks like it will just be a "resource" city. maybe a seafood in fog or a very weak tundra deer, which is unlikely

I meant to ask Pack to calculate Willie's EP on us IBT. (unfortunatley, old BuFFy doesn't include the newer bug/bull features that does that for you). I guess we could look at the last save. I think he upped it to about 6ept since we should have otherwise been able to see his tech in these last 2 turns..it's just out of reach.

So I say let's do the 10% now..then we likely won't have to worry about it for a bit, but we should keep tabs on his ept on us each turn.

Well, AIs can be very unpredictable on epts. This is something I track a lot now in games - mainly on how we've used it in past sgotms. It's bizarre how AIs will bump up there epts significantly for x turns, probably raising the slider to 30 to 40% or more early in the game. Some Leaders may be more programmed to do this than others. Point is, we just need a temp view of it, so invest now. He may go full ep on us at any time and likely already doing so.

(That Divinity game was on many best lists as #1 GoY. The old Divinity games were classics in their own right. I may try it later when it goes on a big sale. Not on much of an rpg kick of late..just trying PoE, which is pretty good and has some unique stuffs)

Well it was we had 5 points left to see his tech 2 turns ago before I played. Now we need 3 points. If it follows that pattern, we will see what he has on us in 3 turns. I think 10% should do it. 10% is 7 points. Even if he puts full points on us, that should be enough to over come it, unless he bumps up the slider as well.

Yep galley 2 left, or west. Whatever works.

Galley 2x left please too.
Settler continues towards Deer (i know, adding just in case )

Seems all good then, green.
Curious what Willy does.

You got a galley? How did I miss that?

BSPollux said:

You got a galley? How did I miss that?

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We are veddy sneaky. Deliberate attempt to confuse you

Packers5280 said:

Yep galley 2 left, or west. Whatever works.

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that would be your east

yep, I'm green

I think we should post an update next turn though if we see Willie's tech..I think it will be a decision time

BSPollux said:

You got a galley? How did I miss that?

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..and i made this one just for you.

Well geez, how helpful yep he smokes too much ~~
So he probably does not even have writing yet, we can forget judging our tech with his help.

Oh yes, right! I remember that screenshot, but somehow I didn't realize it was a galley instead of a scouting wb

1 turn in. Aaaaand we can see what WvO is researching. Its..............................masonry?



I think that the wb in BFF is for scouting around WvO to see if Liz is up there.

Yeah, that would be a good use for it.

Packers5280 said:

1 turn in. Aaaaand we can see what WvO is researching. Its..............................masonry?
[/SPOILER]

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Because he's a... stoner!

So Willie putting 4ept on us last turn...good...we should be fine for some time unless he changes. Just note delta each turn. 180 this turn.

Do we send new warrior W as well?

Not sure how Willie's tech affects us. Seems AIs still on early techs. This makes me think Alpha is better now, but Iz's Maths argument/analysis was good too.

Surf's settler production is pretty good

guess we could have delayed BFF's finishing wb a a few turns unless we want that one for scouting.

ah..I guess keeping Alcatraz fog busted a coupla turns is good...a barb galley would be most distressing there...or a city

ha..did anyone notice that plains oasis near Shaka...nice cookin', BSP. Nice tile really

Packers5280 said:

I think that the wb in BFF is for scouting around WvO to see if Liz is up there.

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It's for fog busting rock island cos our galley picks up the Settler soon, and then also for fish city imo after border pop.
A barb on that island would really ruin our day.

Will go sleep for today, we need our final vote on Alpha or Maths now anyways.
Stuff looks good so far.

It seems I was off somewhere on library math. It's gonna take 2T to finish it instead of 1T. That's alright though, the alternative would've taken more food from BFF.

Looks like our fur worker is going to be ready to leave the island the same turn that we need to pick up the settler and head for rock island. I guess we really only need to sail 1NE of the capitol on the first turn since the settler can't load and unload on the same turn, and then on the 2nd turn the worker can hop off (on main land by palace) before we move the boat 2NE and unload settler.

Regarding horse site.. it seems unlikely that there will be food, but it's still a useful location. With a couple of island cities it will get at least 5gpt in trade commerce (6 with Currency), and once you add in river horses, river farm, and city tile, you are looking at 9c/t easy without working furs or sea tiles which will more than pay for the city. We also get at least 10 forests and the city itself can contribute 7hpt at S3 working farm + horses + grass mine if we go that route. Not a whip candidate certainly, but still a decent site, particularly for the forests.

@ Lymo: No, we don't want a worker on rock island at all. We want to get him back to the mainland before the boat takes the settler to rock island. It doesn't appear that that will be an issue though as long as we leave the galley somewhere like 1NE of the palace and let them both hop on board there.

You could probably make a good case that we don't ever want to work those mines on rock island with the possible exception of when we are trying to build the NE. It does seem a waste to spend so many worker turns on 3 PH mines that we hardly want to work. 1T to board galley, 3 turns to move onto 3 hills, 12 turns to build 3 mines, 2 more turns loading and unloading after the last one.... 18 worker turns for a few crappy PH mines in a food city. Makes me wonder if we could build the NE with whip OF or something instead.

Do we really need to send the worker there now? It will be some turns before Alcatraz grows onto
a mine. Worker could road the fur now while he is there or lay down a cottage on the island(1n of fur), maybe even build a mine next to deer or something.

Just sayin'..maybe we can first look at when that city pops borders, start working netted fish, turns to grow in conjunction with worker drop-off/4t mine. There may be a gap there that will allow us to do something else with him for a few turns. might as well. Ofc, i could be completely wrong.

yeah, with those those forests and horse, if we can get it to size 3 or 4, we might end up chopping some wonder in that city later, if we ever get a freakin' wonder booster. or just use it as a settler/worker pump

Hmm 1 mine could be good for fish island?
Helps using a better tile for some turns, we will get the first fish after 5 turns border pop.
If we unload worker + settler same turn, that's 2 turns of mine.
I also think we will not get another boat from Palace already at size 2.
Helps building the library (or a boat). 6h/turn, not bad.

After the mine, he could be transported to corn city (unload 4N of BFF).

If that's bad timing, we should just unload him in BFF for corn city.
But if it's okay, 1 mine always helps in such cities.
Cos we will not want to whip everything, happy cap.

Some other thoughts..Lymo 1 turn of farm NW and then on forest 1w of Shaka's archer?
For scout boat chop. Or if we prefer the forest 2w of archer, no farm turn.

Lion 1w for settler security, maybe Willy's boat covers fogbusting while he does that.

Bear SE works great, new warri catches up.

I do not care about a granary so early in fish city
Library guys, we need 2 scientists.

Well 1 mine would make a 2nd boat much easier, without whipping.
We would almost have 30h at size 2 (sorry, edit) already, and then we could spend 2 more turns or so working fish + mine for our 2nd boat.
I struggle seeing where a granary fits in, they cost 60h first which would already be more than a lib costs. With 2 fish it's fast without getting extra food.

If we had that 1 mine, i would think no whip at all.
It's 12h/turn library, growing back after whipping = 1 method, slow building but having all pop available already after 7+ turns = another.

Seems i am not reaching you currently
Ofc we want a granary, but why before library? 60h vs. 45h, one benefits us immediately and other one not until we reach a better happy cap or Caste.
What will you do with that granary? Grow into unhappy, or whip a market? Doubtful cos we need those 2 scientists and we have 3 fish.

Well yep sorry, i thought that was always our plan.
2 quick PHI scientists.

Next topic is also beautiful..Maths or Alpha, lol.
You did a nice sumup already, but we had some guys who wanted Alpha now.
I would almost roll a dice by now.

Hmm, without granary the mine would be better than working coast, but once the granary is up 2F essentially equals 4H and the coast also provides commerce. The exception would be building wonders because those have the whip penalty associated with them (and are difficult to whip in general). Also if happiness becomes an issue due to excessive whip anger the mines could be preferable.

I dunno. If we have some worker turns available 1 mine probably isn't a terrible thing.

When we get fish city settled we should really run some tests regarding build order and such. I think we would want granary asap, but Pottery won't be available immediately when we settle the city. The city may also need to build 1 WB for itself.

I think settler will be available to load on galley on T60, unload on T61, and settle on T62. Math will be in on T65, and Pottery maybe T69? That would leave 7T of hammers into something else.

Actually it seems WBs are going to be our big bottleneck. We have 1 ready now, but the other 2 seem quite far off. We might want to whip 1 from fish city at S2 and time it to where the city regrows to S2 the turn the boat nets 2nd fish. The possibilities here are making my head spin... i think we will need a test game for sure.

You might care about granary if it got us 2 scientists faster. Which it would if we had Pottery, but in this situation probably not.

If we are S4 working 2 fish and 2 scientists with 1 whip anger from library whip we will either need an MP warrior there or furs connected. Right?

Granary doesn't fit in because we can't build it Also you are going for the short-term approach in the city which might be best here, but it isn't the only approach. I honestly hadn't thought a lot about that aspect yet.

Next topic?

I'm supporting Math at this point. Alpha mostly just saves a few beakers with not having to tech Pottery but we aren't hurting for beakers here. We are hurting for hammers and Math will provide more quick hammers which will boost our scouting efforts (among other things) and i think that's more important.

IW? Probably not a big deal. At this point we are either going to have iron in our land or we aren't. Maybe seeing iron earlier allows us to mine a nice tile and get some extra hammers, but that's far from guaranteed. I wouldn't consider an IW trade to be very important.

Yeah, I wouldn't entirely rule out granary in Fish..doesn't mean we can't start Library. Boosting growth in that city will be huge, especially for later LH whip and growth into Caste. But yeah, i'm just basically throwing out words at this point..ha...must be tested.

Didn't consider having some turns working the mine in that city. That is something to consider I guess. Seems like it would only be 1t at most, but maybe I'm wrong. wouldn't hurt to think about the timings on that worker though if it is deemed the super fast mine is not that urgent, if he can do a few things elswhere

don't we have a forest or two around BFF to chop more wbs..i forget..can't look at game...or maybe even Surf

well, heck, depending on where we head with tech, we might have the Library finished before grans really come available Wasn't saying not to start it, just that gran should not be overlooked there, but you seem to be on the same page with that anyway. If we can get that Lib up quick and run scientist it would be useful. And Maths isn't always easy to trade for early if they go for the wonder as is Alpha

I'm fine with Math by the way. Part of the argument is just for arguments sake, so we make sure we consider every perspective. Boosting chops around deer will be nice, but probably should be noted that we are running out of forests in general. I do think we will save more beakers on just Pottery though, but still..at this point.. we only know 3 AIs and I think Shaka only trades at pleased, so really 2 trading partners..and some techs that may not trade for a while. It's not inconceivable to trade Maths+ or Math (part techAlpha) for Alpha at some point.

Still happy with maths. Bit concerned how backward the other Ai here. The reality is they would of never been that much use tech trades. TW/pottery. Probably refuse masonry. Myst/poly/Med/jud/PH but we are skipping aesth anyway so no point.

IW might of been useful if Shaka did come our way.

Let's go with maths and stop the debate.

I was wrong, maths or Alpha was nice (short)
Next ~3 turns sumup:
Maths 100%
Bear towards Furs
New war west to replace for fog busting
Lion goes west 2x to secure our settler (would be good if we could also fogbust NE, but who knows if Willy has a barb walking in)
Lymo goes chopping for Deer city workboat

Please add your thoughts if you see something missing or have better ideas, i was just suming up my thoughts for Packers

Summed up nice for units and tech.

We still have to decide on build for surf and which method we need to use for the settler from surf that Izuul gave us.



I think I like the 1st option. (No whip) One turn isn't that big of deal compared to losing the gems for a 4 turns, 24 and 4 .

I thought we didn't talk about it. Maybe we did and I was just oblivious.

What is happening now?

I thought we had decided on option 1 last night? Fippy has the unit movement covered. You have the old plans for BFF and LP too. Pretty much decided on maths too. 100% science now.

Green for next 2-3 turns unless something interesting happens. We need to report back for T60.