GOTM23 Succession Game [civ3]

Alweth, you're doing well and the turn log is a great help to your team mates interested in giving you advice.

Here's my take on 10% Research (A.K.A Minimum Science) - In civ, gold is better than almost anything else because it's flexible. You can buy shields, beakers (tech), happiness (luxuries), resources, upgrades, rush buys... Doing maximum, or as fast as you can research puts all your flexible gold, into inflexible beakers. There are many considerations as to whether beakers are worth investing your gold in. Here are some times when I do max research.

• If you think you can completely research a tech before any of the AI. If you can, then you get the full value of the beakers because you get the tech at a monopoly and can sell it at monopoly prices.
• If I absolutely need a tech to continue my game plan and I waiting makes my situation worse. Examples: pottery for a granary, map making to get off of an island start with no other civs, chivalry to use my UU to dominate the world before muskets, literature because my prebuild for the GL only has 10 turns left.
• If a lot of civs know the tech. The value of a tech drops dramatically, meaning the amount of beakers required to research it are lower. It may be an advantage to put your gold into your scientists rather than in the treasuries of other civs.
• If you have a lot of librarys, universities and/or research labs that multiply any gold invested in research. This is especially true of scientific civs that have cheap librarys and universitys. It also works much better with a well placed FP/Palace as corruption affects the amount of gold you can contribute to science.

Here are some factors that make me go minimum science:

• Using a "gambit" to get a monopoly on a tech. Typical gambits are Math, Polytheism and Literature. The AI has a lower priority on these techs so even researching at minimum, you may get it first. If you succeed, you get to buy a lot of the other AA techs with it. If you fail, you've wasted 40 turns research so that's why it's a gambit.
• I'm relying on the AI but I still want to make sure I get a tech within a certain amount of time. For example, I want to make sure I have economy in time to switch a prebuild to Smiths.
• I can't research it any faster at max (still 40 turns at 100% science) but I really want it. For example, writing on a riverless, food less start.
• The AI will not discount government techs. For example, Republic is still a 40turn tech but I don't want to rely on the AI selling it to me because they add a premium to governmental techs.

There are even times when you should go No Science. If you have no hope of getting a tech first and are planning on buying it, just save your cash. This often happens in the AA when all the gambit techs are gone and you don't have the prereqs for Republic.

A big part of this discussion is the fact that a tech devalues as more civs learn it. Gold never devalues. Thus, given the choice between 100g, 100 beakers or Cerimonial Burial, I would always take the 100g. This is true when you're selling techs too.

I've probably missed some points but that should improve your understanding of science slider adjustment.

Originally posted by Email10

[LURK]
For even more benefit, you can use a scientist in one of your not-so-good cities and then go 0% on science. This even works through anarchy.
[/LURK]

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Are you sure about this, when in anarchy a scientist will continue to research? Not that it matters in this game with one turn anarchy.

Alweth@

Don't let attitudes bully you.

Citizen attitudes: Early on, happiness becomes a problem because you have no luxuries, temples and the luxury slider starts at 0. Most people (except of AlanH I guess ) prioritized connecting luxuries. That's fine if it's convient. But the next thing to do is raise the luxury slider, not build a temple. Even if you are religious (like you are now) a temple is thirty shields AND it delays building something else by a significant number of turns. In a highly productive city, you will want the shields going to settlers, workers a granary or military at this early point in the game. Building a temple is missing out on 3 warriors.

In addition, the luxury slider is a great value. Lets take an extreme example of pop 3 in your capital. You have 1 unhappy face. Raising the slider 10% is probably 1gpt. The 3rd (unhappy citizen) is making 2food, 1shield and 1g on average. That's a great payoff. Use the luxury slider until your empire is large enough that the corrupt towns are wasting your luxury money. To help with the luxury slider, try to keep your core towns, where the uncorrupt gold leads to more happy people, larger than the fringe towns, where corruption prevents the luxury tax from making happy faces. That means building lots of workers from your peripheral towns. Peripheral towns are also good candidates for temples since luxury slider doesn't help them. Plus they can use the flip prevention/border expansion.

Don't let the AI Attitude bother you either. Cautious just means they don't know whether to like you or hate you. Furious just means that don't like you. It doesn't necessarily mean they will attack you. And it doesn't necessarily need to be fixed either. Making gift's to improve attitudes should be done for a purpose, like winning the UN. Selling at slashed rates does nothing to improve AI attitude, and should not be done unless you have some other purpose, like catching up a trading partner.

You could read Bamspeedy's article on AI Attitude for more information. Since this will be a military win (Domination) don't worry about AI frowns too much.

EDIT: smackster, yes scientists work well in anarchy. It's a great way to get your four turn minimum out of the way and then crank up research once out of anarchy and finish the tech in a turn or two if you're a really science powerhouse.

Originally posted by smackster
But now I think I might go for the Granary, and make Madinah the worker/settler/warrior factory.

Click to expand...

Why? We have a settler farm already, I can't see how Madinah would be any better at it, and it will cost us time and effort to bring it into operation. We do need some workers, but remember that Madinah is going to stick at pop 6 until we invest in an aquaduct, so a granary will cost us 60 shields for a limited objective.

A temple is relatively cheap, and gets the iron and the olives into our radius, so I prefer Alweth's plan.

Originally posted by AlanH

Why? We have a settler farm already, I can't see how Madinah would be any better at it, and it will cost us time and effort to bring it into operation. We do need some workers, but remember that Madinah is going to stick at pop 6 until we invest in an aquaduct, so a granary will cost us 60 shields for a limited objective.

A temple is relatively cheap, and gets the iron and the olives into our radius, so I prefer Alweth's plan.

Click to expand...

Yes didn't think about the fact that we need the culture growth in this city to make it production, so the temple is required for that reason alone. After that we make that city pump out warriors, workers, and maybe some more settlers if we feel the need.

Originally posted by smackster
Yes didn't think about the fact that we need the culture growth in this city to make it production, so the temple is required for that reason alone.

Click to expand...

Yeah, me either. Sorry Alweth, for my previous post regarding temple. You are correct in picking a religious civ's cheap building to get border expansion for the needed tiles in the second radius.

I vow (at least for this SG) not to give anymore advice without first looking at the save. A downside (or maybe plus side given my recent weediness) will be less input from me.

Originally posted by smackster

Are you sure about this, when in anarchy a scientist will continue to research? Not that it matters in this game with one turn anarchy.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm certain of it. I've used it in situations where the anarchy periods were more extended than they will be here, and the turns-to-complete went down by one every turn, so it definitely wasn't just techs getting cheaper as a result of others learning them.

Originally posted by ControlFreak

I vow (at least for this SG) not to give anymore advice without first looking at the save. A downside (or maybe plus side given my recent weediness) will be less input from me.

Click to expand...

Keep it all coming, ControlFreak. There's plenty of valuable input coming from your direction, and the odd controversial item keeps our brain cells active and gets the debate going.

@smackster

Oh yeah, thanks for the Spain fix.

Originally posted by Alweth
Maybe I should be irrigating it? I was planning to mine another plane that Makkah and Diriyah can share too.

Click to expand...

Check out my sequence for the settler farm. I think you'll find we need:

TWO irrigated flood plains (we have them)
TWO irrigated plains (we have ONE, we need another)
ONE irrigated wool (we have it)
ONE unimproved goat hill (we have it)
ONE mined plain (you're doing it, and you should carry on and road it now while you are there)

So top priority is to irrigate that roaded plain SW of Makkah. You can start that next turn, using the worker that's about to finish the wool road. After that we can irrigate flood plains in Madinah and/or irrigate and mine two more plains tiles north of Makkah so that we can liberate the shared ones for Madinah.

Makkah will need to use the mined plan every alternate turn as its pop grows, so it is too dangerous to try to share that tile with Madinah - reserve it for Makkah. Makkah will use all the other tiles except one irrigated plain every turn. It will use that irrigated plain whenver it is at pop6 - 50% of the time. Mt recommenation is that, unless we are really confident of doing the MM accurately, we should not try to share that tile either.

BTW the road from Makkah to Madinah doesn't cross the river. The roads from Diriyah to Makkah and Madinah both do. It takes two turns to get to Diriyah from either of the other towns. It only takes one turn to get from Diriyah to Makkah, though, because the river is right next to Makkah.

Okay, I'm done. Here's the full log:

Preturn - 2190BC
Look around. That's it.

I'll leave research at 10% even though I'm not sure what the strategy behind it is. (I usually try to have my research as high as possible, but I'm not very good.)

1. 2190BC

Madinah finishes warrior. I build temple, since production is currently good, I'm concerned about happiness vs. population, and it's already being crowded by Makkah.

E. Warrior->E to meet settler and explore.

E. Scout->NW>NW since warrior is exploring to his south.

Settler->SW

N. Scout->South

S. Scout->N>N to check out land around possible horse town

Madinah Warrior->W because I see some more warriors in Madinah's future and we haven't explored that way yet. (Just realized this was dumb, should have gone SW>W.)

End of turn, while checking diplomacy Civ III quits on me. Close some other programs and load autosave. Do the same things again. Nothing to report in diplomacy.


2. 2150BC - E. Warrior is attacked and killed by barbarian. Darn.

Makkah produces settler->S over river (forgot about that)

eqWorker->NE>NE>N (heading for wool)

Worker->NE>N (Because I don't know if I can handle another pop factory yet)

Makkah Warior->N to meet settler

W. Warrior->SW to explore a tad before I bring him back to defend.

S. Scout->N>W

E. Scout->W>W

E. Settler->W (hope to avoid barb)

N. Scout->S

This time I save before checking diplomacy. Good thing too, because this time it quits to desktop immediately. Load save. Mysticism is burning a hole in my pocket, since the Ottomans have it too, but only neoCarthage has anything (23 gp) to trade. Decide to gift Alphabet to them since they're the only ones that don't have it and so that they wont trade mysticism for it.

3. 2070 BC - Ottomans(?) grab horses with Uskudar

E. Scout->N>N sees barbarian settlement with barb next to him. Darn.

E. Settler->E hoping Veteran Persian Warrior will handle barbs in that area.

Makkah Warrior->N

eqWorker->NE>E to wool

home Settler->SE>SE to city spot

Worker mines

w. Warrior->SW

Since city near horses has been set, no need to explore more, so:
S. Scout->S(see barb)>W(see another) Darn.

N. Scout->SW>S

End of Turn. Save. Apparently whenever I diplo the Spanish at the end of my turn it quits to desktop. Zulus have Iron Working, but they want everything we have plus gpt in exchange. I'll wait.

4. 2030 BC - S. Scout dies. E. Scout is okay. Makkah to 5 pop.

Found Diriyah. Start building Warrior because barbs are eating me alive.

eqWorker roading wool

N. Warrior->NE

W. Warrior->SE because my hand was off a key (meant to head back E to defend)

N. Scout->SW>S

E. Scout->N

Settler->W sees Veteran Persian Warrior

MM Makkah and Diriyah. Quality land is getting a little crowded.

EOT. Save. Spain. Desktop. Load. Persians have Iron Working, so Zulus are singing a different tune. Still will wait, though.

5. 2000 BC - Barbs approach Settler. Elite neoCarthage warrior approaches Makkah.

For that reason, I decide to do diplo at the beginning this turn. neoCarthage has Writing but is cautious. Don't know what their intentions are, so I hope if I throw Myticism and Iron Working at them they'll go away (and I can pick up writing in the process). 47g and Mysticism to Zulus for Iron Working. 63g, Iron Working, Mysticism, and contact with Egypt to neoCarthage for Writing and some politeness. I think this should leave us in a very good position to trade as the other civs get their techs.

When Madinah expands we'll have access to iron (assuming we road it).

Settler->W trying to avoid barb

E. Scout->E>N for same reason

Knew the mismove would come back to haunt me. W. Warrior now can't reach Makkah before neoCarthage. Run, Warrior, run!->NE

N. Scout->S>S

N
. Warrior->N If neoCarthage causes trouble I'll have to rush-build defense.

6. 1950 BC - neoCarthage behaves, barbarians from south.

E. Scout->N>NW

Settler->W

E. Warrior->N

W. Warrior->NE

N. Scout->S

Switch guy in Diriyah to FP. Trade Communications with French to Zulus for 45g, as AlanH suggested.

7. 1910 BC - Makkah produces Settler

I'll go for a worker next because we're not up to 4TSF yet and I need more.

Makkah Settler can go north for safety or east for fastest hook up and approach to horses. We'll probably get another Settler before we can take the horses anyways and chivalry is a ways off still. Could go for the NW site but that's further off and I'm afraid of barb attacks. So, I'll go north.->N (Oops, just remembered that that was the target for the N. Settler.)

eqWorker->SW toward FP

W. Warrior->NE>NE>N

N. Warrior->N

N. Settler->W being chased by barb

E. Scout->W>W "Eat my dust, barbarians!"

W. Scout->SE

EOT. Luxury to 10%. Nothing to report in diplo. Establish embassies:

neoCarthage: Warrior; warrior in 1 (as I recall)
Ottomans: Spearman; settler in 1
Persia: Spearman; settler in 3
Spain: Spearman; settler in 23 (yeah, 23, but growth in 1 from FP)

8. 1870 BC - Diriyah ransacked for 1 gold

eqWorker->SW (Probably should have had the him go W last turn then tried SW>S>SE this turn)

Home Warrior->NE>fortify

Makkah Settler->N

N. Warrior->NE

N. Settler->wait because he doesn't really have any option that won't move him away from the warrior or into danger since there was a barb following him

W. Scout->E>S

N. Scout->W>SW

EOT. No diplo.

9. 1830 BC - barb gets in the way of N. Warrior, Makkah produces worker, now making settler

MM Makkah

that Worker->N

eqWorker->S

other Worker roads

Makkah Settler->N

N. Warrior->NE kills barb

N. Settler->S

N. Scout->SE>S

W. Scout->S>E

EOT. Zululand now has 7 gold.

10. 1790 BC

N. Scout->S>S

N. Warrior->S

N. Settler->S

Other Settler builds Damascus

N. Worker roads

eqWorker irrigates

W. Scout->NE>NE

EOT. That's it! Ottomans have 25g and Persia has 19, might want to trade them Egypt's com before Carthage does.

FINAL SAVE, HAVE AT IT:

Erk, I accidentally uploaded the SAV instead of the ZIP again.

FINAL SAVE, HAVE AT IT:

Well played, Alweth. I liked a lot the tech trading and the settler's evasive manoeuvres on his way to Makkah...

I also agree with building a Temple in Madinah, and with using this city to build some military units. However, since our goal is Domination, it will be good to have it build workers and settlers from time to time (also to keep it below pop 6 -even though I am slowly reaching the conclusion that it should have been founded on the FP... ).

We also need to start piling up money for the warrior upgrade. My bet is that 10-15 will be enough to give them a good hit without compromising our growth.
So... let's start building warriors!

EDIT: I swore to myself not to run Civ3 while at work... anyone care to post a screenshot?

I will be unable to continue running this game. AlanH, could you please see that it stays on schedule?

I posted my reasons here .

I am truly sorry I am unable to continue. I wish you well and good luck.

My turn now - sorry to see you drop out ControlFreak but these things happen. I am still at work - with a PC so will get stuck into tonight on the iMac.

ControlFreak,

I'm kind of shocked and sad about this, I thought I'd post here rather than the other thread. Thanks for all your help. I understand your issue, I have wife and 2 kids myself, but they all need to sleep more than I so still get time for Civ.

Smackster

Good luck Control Freak. There but for the grace ... We'll miss you, friend.

Picking up the baton - here's the current roster:

AlanH (on deck)
smackster
Karasu
Alweth
MacBaldrick (playing now)


Good sequence, Alweth. Go, MacBaldrick!

Hay Alan,

Assuming that MacB gets done soon (he's UK time so I assume he's about to finish???), and I know you are addicted enough with Civ to play the next moves tonight and I'll keep checking the forum, so I could also play mine tonight. How would that be, 30 moves in one night. I can always dream.

[Edit] Of course I realise you are UK time too, whatever, stay up late, play civ, call in a sicky tomorrow

Smackster

1790 BC Status
Researching Polytheism at minimum in 22 turns (won’t be completed in my session).

Increase Lux one notch to keep cities happy when they grow - loses only 3 gpt.

Four cities close to capital which is near to 4 turn settler farm (should generate 2 new settlers this session) plus settler from North. Settle two cities to East, one 4.5 tiles due E and 2nd (using N settler next to Lake & Olives). Third settler to found city NW over mountains (4.5 tiles) to capture Olives and build Warriors for upgrading to Swords (skip road over mountain for now to keep isolated). Funture builds (next session) towards horses to SE.

Objectives: 1/ Complete infrastructure for Settler farm & build - link three new cities.
2/ Build up warriors / swords.
3/ Find Rome (probably thru trade).
4/ Trade for any techs possible.

Diplo before next turn : Trades

Spain - cmms with Egypt for 20g (still lack mysticism)
Persia - comms with Egypt for 19g (still lack writing)
Ottomans - comms with Egypt for 6g (still lack writing)
Zulu - comms with India for 5g (have all the techs)
Spain - comms with India for 5g
Egypt - lack wheel, writing & mysticism
Carthage - have all the techs
France - lacks iron working

Got all the gold now (+57) for total of 101 and all the techs. Will have to check for AI research.

EOT

turn 1 - 1750 BC

Temple built in Madinah - go for Warrior (will need Barracks some time for upgrades but need warriors now to protect cities). MM Makkah for extra shields.

Warrior + Settler > SE
N Scout > E
W Scout > E > N (fill in blank area then head S)

Diplo reveals nothing. EOT

turn 2 - 1725 BC

Diriyan builds warrior - go for warrior.

worker completes mining SW of capital > NE start irrigation
warrior + settler > SE, N scout > SE, W scout > E > E (go round mountains & use roads)

Diplo : Egypt research Mysticism. EOT

turn 3 - 1700 BC

Zulu are building Oracle.

MM Medinah - work unimproved FP still growth in 1.
switch Makkah to Temple - 1 turn (don’t want to lose 2 pop right now) & MM Makkah for growth in 2.

N scout > E > SE
warrior + settler > SE
N worker completes road > N
W scout > E > SE

Diplo : Trade

India - Comms with Egypt for 10g. (still lack wheel & iron working)
Establish embassy with Zulu - Zimbabwe building Oracle (in 90) - 2 pop (growth in 6), 2 Impis ?, Horses.

EOT

turn 4 - 1675 BC

Makkah builds Temple, switch to worker & MM for growth / build in 2.
MM remaining cities for max growth.

worker completes irrigation of FP > NW
N worker starts road (to link Damascus)
W Scout > SE > S
warrior + settler > SE
N scout > S > S

Diplo : nothing EOT

turn 5 - 1650 BC

Madinah builds warrrior & expands to include olives & iron, go for barracks.
Damascus builds warrior, go for warrrior.

W scout > S > S (call it S scout)
worker > NW > W to iron tile.
settler + warrior > SE
N scout > S > SE

Diplo : Trades Egypt - comms with French for 20g EOT

turn 6 - 1625 BC

Makkah produces worker > E, set to settler with MM for 4 turn production
(cap + wool + wool + Fp + Fp + IP = 5 f + 6 s)

S scout > S > SE > SE > S
worker completes irrigation > SW > W
worker starts road on iron
settler + warrior > S (to found city next to olives NB losing one bonus grassland)
N scout > SE > S (discovers Barb camp - Arghhhhh) rename E scout

Diplo : Egypt / France / Persia now have all techs & contacts + some gold. EOT

turn 7 - 1600 BC

worker completes road to Damascus > S > S
Found Bagdad by lake in NE, set to warrior.
E scout > S > S (barb camp empty ?)
S scout > S > SW (spot Egyptian warrior)
worker builds road on iron (4 turns)

Makkah (cap + wool + goat + Fp + Fp + IP = 5 f + 6 s + 2s on growth)

Diplo : nothing new EOT

turn 8 - 1575 BC

MM Makkah (Cap + wool + goat + Fp + Fp + IP + IP = 5f + 7s)

worker > SW > S > S
worker builds road in E mountains
E scout > S > S
S scout > SW > SW

diplo: nothing new EOT

turn 9 - 1550 BC

Dyriah builds warrior > E, produce more.
worker > SW > SW (olive tile)
S scout > SW > SW
E scout > S > S

diplo “ nothing to report EOT

turn 10 - 1475 BC

Makkah builds settler, MM back to 2 x FP + IP and begin cycle again (note this process only requires switch of tile worked at each pop growth - every two turns)

Damascus builds warrior > S > S (to escort settler).
settler > E (to found city just beyond mountains next to forest/spices)
worker mines olive tile
S scout > SW > SW (reveals spices & 2 x goats)
E scout > S > S

diplo : Ottomans have contact with Romans (want 190g). limited gold to recover cost from others ? That decision is up to next player.

EOT

Summary : 4 turn Settler factory up & running. One new city founded and 2nd in 2 turns (slower than I thought) Several cities turning out warriors and since we get iron next turn we can spend gold on upgrades to swords (once barracks completed in Madinah - 5 turns but will speed up once mining complete).

Future thoughts -

Since Ottomans have discovered Rome they must be in the SE of map.

Could found city next to horses (next to Uskudar), connect up to core and fill with swords and be ready to grab from Ottomans when Horseback Riding appears. If we rush temple / library (assuming Literature is researched by AI soon & we can trade) will we expand into horse tile ?

Q my scout was unable to occupy the ‘empty’ barb camp. Does it need a warrior to ‘pop’ it or do we get a city or does it just disappear - can’t remember what should happen ?

mistakes - I think I should be checking Diplo at start of turn not end.

Will place zipped file in separate post (not sure I'm doing it right as when I saved I got a CIV III data file (tablet icon) and when I dragged that into macZip I got zip file which when unzipped gave me a folder with the file in it.