The Great Patriotic War: WWII on the Eastern Front (Development Diary)

WOW that is a great progress so far. Sadly, I don't know anything in 3D modeling.

What are those "XX" "lll"? Unit strength?

magzhi said:

What are those "XX" "lll"? Unit strength?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_symbols#Unit_sizes

WOW that is a great progress so far. Sadly, I don't know anything in 3D modeling.

What are those "XX" "lll"? Unit strength?

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The counter layout is as follows:

- Top left indicates any size specifications such as light, medium or heavy
- Top right indicates unit size as per PawelS link. I have tried to keep as close to historic formations and comparable sizes across unit types.
- Bottom left is unit type description
- Bottom right describes type of equipment (or majority where multiple types) or in the case of standard infantry the dots indicate the improved levels/TO&E as time goes on.

Using the screenshot above, the Soviets have 5 types of infantry rifle divisions that improve over time with projects. For those with historic interest, the TO&E formations are TO 04/400, TO 04/600, TO 04/750, TO 04/300, TO 04/550.

These different TO&E types dictate how much personnel and equipment each counter type requires for creation/healing as a part of the scenario supply system.

I have now added all units into the game (minus proper stats) and have noticed something weird.

I mentioned in my earlier posts that the new counter units I am using had a shiny glow which I was hoping to remove as it has some weird patterns in it. Well it turns out that on closer inspection of the black counters that the pattern is a texture map for infantry or something!!!

I double checked my source graphics files just incase the alpha channel had some junk left in it and its all clear. So my question is where exactly is this additional texture coming from when compiling my units.

Here is a screenshot. Note the black SS counters and you will notice a uniform and parts on the top and a rifle on the side of the counter!



And here is the fxsxml file for one of the black counters:

I dont see anything in the xml file thatwould reference any infantry texture file!

Can anyone point out what I might look out for to fix this problem?

EDIT: Ok, I did some further investigating and noticed that IndieStone's Nexus unit tool has a section labelled SREFMap which has the entry rifleman_sref.dds by default. I opened this file and got an exact match for the phantom unit. My question now is what do I replace this entry with and is there a way to correct this without exporting all my units again (extremely long and painful process that's taken 3 days )???

Update - 6th July 2012

Boy it has been a busy last few weeks!

Having gone through the ups and downs of the patch and G&K conversion, I spent quite a few days sorting out an initial list of units to be included in the game. As my last posts have shown, I have also endured dramas with creating the counter files. The last of the issues with the counters was the phantom texture in each icon which has now been resolved. It turns out that the rifleman_sref.dds file was automatically being linked when I was creating my units via the SREFMap field in the Nexus Buddy tool. I had to create a new SREFMap file with a blank area and then tweak the alpha greyscale level to maintain a nice shine to the counters. This meant exporting all 100+ units all over again (another precious day lost on rework!)

Anyhow, I have spent all of today and yesterday compiling a list of possible stats for the ground units in the scenario. I have started with German and Soviet units and will eventually progress to the other nations (Finland, Romania, Hungary, Italy, Slovakia and Sweden).

Having not played too much of the game, I am assuming that my logic is correct in how I am calculating some of the combat modifiers below. Each unit in the below table has a base combat value (green column) and then a description of any modifiers that will be applied via the promotion system.

The w/Mod column indicates what the base combat figure would look like when each modifier is applied. Bare in mind that this does not factor other promotions and terrain mods so the figure could be higher/lower depending on the actual situation. However, it gives a sense of how a unit stands up against other units and cities/terrain.

As previously indicated, the units are structured around specific formations commonly used by each side and their base combat strength takes this into consideration (more specifically for infantry).

Infantry - The reason for multiple types of infantry is that traits will change combat values over time for both sides to reflect the increasing/decreasing level of quality and supply requirement size.

For those curious, here is a very simplified overview of infantry levels in the scenario:
German Infantry Levels
Infantry Level 1 - Mostly battle-hardened veterans from the 39-40 campaigns.
Infantry Level 2 - Reserve pool, well trained and equipped.
Infantry Level 3 - Reduced manpower, training dropping off, but well equipped
Infantry Level 4 - Reduced manpower, weak training, modestly equipped
Volkgrenadier - Last of the 'professional' soldier pool, weak training and modestly equipped
Volkssturm - Scrapping the bottom of the barrel....old men and teenagers!

Soviet Infantry Levels
Infantry Level 1 - Type 04/400 formation. Poor training and leadership non existent due to Stalin's purges.
Infantry Level 2 - Type 04/600 formation. Gaining combat experiences the hard way! Manpower issues.
Infantry Level 3 - Type 04/750 formation. Improved training (but still not enough) but beginning to learn lessons. Leadership improving.
Infantry Level 4 - Type 04/300 formation. Improved training, combat veterans being promoted more frequently. Better equipped. Manpower issues again.
Infantry Level 5 - Type 04/550 formation. Good training, confident and well equipped. However, even more manpower reductions.

Artillery - For those wonder where towed artillery is in the scheme of things, I have decided to leave it out as an independent unit for a two reasons:
1. Reducing the number of units on the map
2. In most cases, artillery tends to be embedded or attached/detached from divisions/corps during combat depending on needs of a campaign.

However, both sides have been given mobile SP artillery options that should satisfy the need to saturate the enemy when launching assault campaigns!

Siege Artillery - This a 'flavor' unit that has been included specifically to reflect the siege on Sevastopol and Leningrad. This unit will very likely be controlled by code.

Draft (v1) of German and Soviet Ground Units


Any feedback or observations welcomed.

EDIT: I noticed Soviet Heavy Tank formations are listed as brigade. This is incorrect and should be regiment.

Well its time to revive this thread again (did not get much feedback on my last post )...

I have been itching to post a big update with lots of info on the new units, promotions and features, but constant tweaks and changes are making this hard as the info seems to change on a daily basis until I hit that sweet spot.

At this stage I can say that the units are mostly complete including counter art. Promotions are also complete but yet to be sanity checked ingame. This has also meant that I have had to go back and update some of my equipment production code to consider the new unit types.


However, I am now at a fork in the road on how the AI uses the equipment production system. The more I think about things I start to realize that the AI is so stupid that it may paint itself into a corner (thats two metaphors in one paragraph...I'm on a roll ) with my production model if it chooses to spam certain types of units and not leave enough equipment to replenish wounded units (keep in mind that a human player understands equipment needs to be conserved for both production and healing), but the AI is not aware of this!

Thus do I:
a.) Force the AI to conform to the same production rules as the human player knowing that the AI may do really stupid things without realizing it. In a way this gives the human player an advantage!

b.) Restrict the AI to only using equipment to build new units. This means the AI gets to heal units irrespective of a specific equipment type not being available.

c.) Exempt the AI from the equipment stockpile process and prevent specific units being built only if a certain type of factory is no longer available (i.e. Henschel plant captured in Kassel prevents Tiger tanks being built anymore). AI units heal without equipment in this option as well.

I am leaning towards B at this stage, but I would like to hear what others may think if they were playing against an AI that had these disadvantages/advantages.

ww2commander said:

Well its time to revive this thread again (did not get much feedback on my last post )...


However, I am now at a fork in the road on how the AI uses the equipment production system. The more I think about things I start to realize that the AI is so stupid that it may paint itself into a corner (thats two metaphors in one paragraph...I'm on a roll ) with my production model if it chooses to spam certain types of units and not leave enough equipment to replenish wounded units (keep in mind that a human player understands equipment needs to be conserved for both production and healing), but the AI is not aware of this!

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Well this is all very difficult to provide much feedback on! It's such an abstract thing without knowing what can be done. The base game replacement code must be very simple, but I'd guess that we cannot replace it (no SDK yet, and even after perhaps not). So I'd try to put a wrapper around that part of the turn (save the points before, reset them after), and then add my own code to handle the allocation. First priority is elite (SS/Guards), they get the max. Next maybe is units near a GG (assume the AI/human is using them effectively), and so forth..

The thing I am certain of is that sooner is better than later, so I will suggest saving some of the complexity for a future version. Give us something to play and lets see how that goes. Just the first 2 months or so should be enough to get involved into seeing how things are going. Perhaps if you have it that units which cannot trace supply get no reinforcements, that is a great start. Certainly encirclement is very important in the opening months.

I sense that my updates are confusing people so I probably need to provide more info on where I am at with my project. I should probably post a few 'screenshot type' updates soon to clarify confusion on my work.

What I can do via code I have written (that works):
- Manufacture different equipment types via industrial buildings (for those note aware, the screenshot a few pages back shows the equipment types and quantities being tracked on the top part of the screen just below resource quantity bar).
- Input raw resources into the above undustries to enable or penalize production
- Penalize production depending on food, power and seasonal weather.
- Store equipment information for units that correlates to their HP level
- Remove equipment quantities from units (in a semi-logical way) that reflects reduction in HP level per turn (i.e. if a unit loses 10 HP, then 10 HP worth of equipment gets lost and the unit's equipment table entry is updated accordingly).
- Penalize units that are cut off from their supply line (code from RED WWII mod)
- AI currently manufactures equipment in same way as human player (code cycles through all nations and tracks equipment via global counters).

What I plan to code or have already started writing code for:
- Using existing build restriction events to prevent human or AI from building a unit if not enough equipment is available.
- Preventing units from healing if not enough equipment
- 'Special' code for specific events relating to equipment such as traitors, captured cities gain/lose equipment.

All the above is a coded layer that sits above the existing game mechanics for healing and building units. Thus the AI is not cognizant of my code or how it works, which leads to my concern that it might do silly things and grind its unit production to a halt.


To respond to your post:

Well this is all very difficult to provide much feedback on! It's such an abstract thing without knowing what can be done. The base game replacement code must be very simple, but I'd guess that we cannot replace it (no SDK yet, and even after perhaps not).

Click to expand...

Thankfully, no access to DLL functionality has been needed to date.

So I'd try to put a wrapper around that part of the turn (save the points before, reset them after), and then add my own code to handle the allocation.

Click to expand...

As you can see, what you suggest is indeed what I am doing via my own madness.

First priority is elite (SS/Guards), they get the max. Next maybe is units near a GG (assume the AI/human is using them effectively), and so forth..

Click to expand...

I have not figured out the best approach to resupply priority, but I might possibly use promotions. I also have supply depot buildings ingame which are currently placeholders (they dont provide any benefit to the city) waiting for code in order to do something relating to the supply system (some forward planning on my part!)

The thing I am certain of is that sooner is better than later, so I will suggest saving some of the complexity for a future version. Give us something to play and lets see how that goes. Just the first 2 months or so should be enough to get involved into seeing how things are going. Perhaps if you have it that units which cannot trace supply get no reinforcements, that is a great start. Certainly encirclement is very important in the opening months.

Click to expand...

The scenario is mostly supply code and SQL at this stage and not much on-map progress (actually unit placement is next thing on my to-do list now that units are finished) or events/game play balance so releasing anything would not be useful.

SchnellerHeinz said:

Hi, I'm a long time lurker, always find it interesting to read about civ mods but have very rarely actually played any (don't get much time with uni and work and other games to play)

This mod inspired me to create an account just to thank you for the work you have already put in and to beseech you to keep going if you have the time and energy!

I am a massive world war 2 buff, and although I love the civ games, the lack of detail and strategic options always grated on me, things like supply lines should always have been in the game as an optional feature in my opinion. Players who like complexity can turn them on, and players who like simplicity can turn them off, no?

Anyway, I know next to nothing about the technical details of modding, but anytime I get I'm going to check back here and see how things are going and if I can think of any suggestions I'll give them.

Again, thankyou so much for even attemping a mod of this complexity, I hope this mod gets a bit more exposure as world war 2 does seem to be the most popular theme for war/strategy games and the Eastern Front was easily the most crucial/dramatic theatre of the war as you undoubtedly know.

Good luck and all the best!

Andrew

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DITTO

The only thing I would like to change with your project is to have the chance to play as Germany as well as USSR, I have read what you wrote about it, but maybe as a second stage of your project. BTW the CivIII version of the Eastern Front was amazing.

I will be alert on the Beta release of the mod to try it

Thanks for the feedback fdregal. I did pose the question a while back but did not get much response.

Having progressed extensively down a specific design path, the final version of this scenario will be playable only from the Soviet side. However, I have tried to make most of my code as modular as possible if any future version is ever built that has a playable Germany.

I never played the civ3 version you mentioned, but my inspiration comes from Nemo's Civ2 Red Front scenario.

With regards to updates, I have refrained from posting any further info until my code, unit placement and some testing occurs. The last few weeks have been spent on unit design and map placement.

At this stage, all Soviet ground units have been placed on the map in their (nearest known) historical position. This has meant countless hours research on all corps/division positions and unit strengths.

This research exercise has not been a bad thing as I can now decipher some Russian (using a lot of Russian websites for info) and have been given a good reason to expand my current book collection with the following titles :

• Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War - David Glantz - 9780700608799
• Colossus Reborn: The Red Army at War, 1941-1943 - David Glantz - 9780700613533
• Hitler's Nemesis: The Red Army, 1930-45 (Stackpole Military History Series) - Walter S Dunn Jr - 9780811735438
• Hitler's Armies: A history of the German War Machine 1939-45 - Chris McNab - 9781849086479
• Slaughterhouse: The Handbook of the Eastern Front - David Glantz - 9780971765092
• Operation Barbarossa: Hitler's Invasion of Russia 1941 - David Glantz - 9780752460703
• German Infantry in World War II (Order of Battle) - Chris Bishop - 9781905704859
• German Panzers in World War II (Order of Battle) - Chris Bishop - 9780760331163

Having read some of the above (still awaiting delivery of others), all I can say is that I thought I knew a lot about the Eastern Front, but boy was I wrong!

Having progressed extensively down a specific design path, the final version of this scenario will be playable only from the Soviet side. However, I have tried to make most of my code as modular as possible if any future version is ever built that has a playable Germany.

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Is there any way to convince you to make Third Reich playable? After you finished your work on Sowjet side?

Playing Sowjet has always been defensive in the beginning and organising techs/production to strike back hard and flood the agressors with a carpet of doom. For me the fun of playing Nazis in ww2 szenarios has always been the agressive expanding and the logistics in making the progress sunstainable. Playing the smaller Axis has been more satisfying for me since the map starts to get more more colored in grey. As sowjets it was all red from the start anyway. ;-)

It adds a whole new feeling to your mod and would make it even more interesting. SO what can we do to convince you, except begging?

Greetz,
Kelestra

I just found this thread and am very impressed and appreciative! Please keep up the fantastic work!

I have no clue what most of your coding and programming discussion is about, so I cannot comment there.

As far as sides to play is concerned, I'm extremely happy to play the Soviet side here. I have absolutely no interest in playing the Axis side - there are tons of games that do that, including the latest Panzer Corps series. So please do not let the Wehrmacht fanboys distract you from your original course and purpose.

Both German and Soviet sides interest me extensively, however, I feel that the Soviet side has more nail biting excitement for a player as well as a chance to explore the more deeper aspects of production, resources and lend lease which made victory possible.

The key issues with making Germany playable (without DLL) is that the AI would not have a clue on how to relocate factories, conserve units and equipment, use winter weather to its advantage or use the transport system for lend lease purposes. There are other limitations but I wont go into details until things are fleshed out.

And on a separate topic....

I am heavily considering using a 2UPT (units per tile) system as I am finding it hard to get all German units near as possible to the borderline as well as make the AI put up a successful thrust on turn 1.

I know there have been a lot of pro/con debates on the 2+UPT debate (I have read most of them), but I see no real evil in using a 2UPT system if it allows the AI to gain an advantage.

This would also allow a more stubborn city defence (ala Leningrad and Stalingrad) as well as allowing the use of fortified region units which on a 1UPT system would hog most of the borderline.

If anyone knows of any game-stopping reason 2UOPT can't be used then please let me know. I was hoping to work through UI limitations at a later point in time. Hopefully Whoward might bless us with an updated version of his 2UPT mod

I have absolutely no interest in playing the Axis side - there are tons of games that do that, including the latest Panzer Corps series. So please do not let the Wehrmacht fanboys distract you from your original course and purpose.

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*calm* Don't know what makes me more angry. The fact that you tell others that ask politely to go elsewhere or that you discriminate me as a Nazi.

Oh boy, neither i wanted to steal anything from you nor is asking for additional features anything about politics. I must kindly remember you to the rules in this forum.

@ww2commander:
Thanks for the answer. I can't figure out the problem with many of these things, because to me it seems that there are many simple work-arounds, but i accept them, of course.

Perhaps, when you are finished and still ambitious to add new features, think about:
-a world map with other possible theaters of ww2.

There's no other mod out there that has the detail and complexity like yours. Feeling is unique and realistic, even more than R.E.D. scenario.

Haven't explored all the combat-mechanics of your mod nor the unit-stacking mods. As long as stacking different units won't create an invincible one (like mobile infanterie with some kind of airdefense stacked might be, and attacking with bombers will only hit airdefense and groundattacks may be defended by inf only...) that can't be overwhelmed in acceptable time, there's nothing gamebreaking i can imagine.

Thanks again!

There's no other mod out there that has the detail and complexity like yours. Feeling is unique and realistic, even more than R.E.D. scenario.

Click to expand...

My scenario is mostly based on the RED mod (much thanks to Gedemon ). By focusing on the Eastern Front I have the opportunity to drill into more detail then would be acceptable for a scenario the scale of RED Europe or World with so many playable nations.

The good thing is that if my scenario does not satisfy someone's gaming style then they can revert to a good round of RED.

Kelestra - I stand by my words. If you like playing the Nazi side, it is your preference. I remind you that it is you that used the word Nazi; I deliberately used Wehrmacht but if Nazi suits you, fine. I simply want the mod to go on as described, without unnecessary delays to accommodate the wishes of those who have ample other games to play that portray the invaders.

It looks very good, I will install it

Can it be in spanish?