Von Münchhausen II

First up for discussion is the SP.

I strongly advocate Organised Religion as it will give us 6 :) once we're ready for Wats and if we don't take it it makes opening Piety a pointless thing to have done. The only other option would be to open Patronage so our CS relationships become cheaper and more beneficial. Can't take Legalism as we're not ready yet, so thats the next policy after this.



That leads nicely on to tech and the GSci. So there are a few option here.

Straight tech Education and when the NC is finished this will arrive about the same time as the GSci. In this scenario the GSci is saved to bulb some thing like Machinery or Banking.

Go for Construction and Engineering to open the bulb for Machinery as soon as possible. After go for Education and hope that we beat the next SP (I think we would).

Straight tech to Machinery and bulb education with the GSci.

There is also the option to finish Optics before starting either tech path. This way we can send a couple of NEs to the S of Hastings.



Ok cities.

Sukho - I'll finish up the NC and then start on a temple. This leaves a couple of turns at the end of the set so maybe an archer for later upgrade? Keep it growing and on production focus.

Si Sat - Stone Works in to temple. Might farm some riverside hills here as well. When the city grows I'll steal the sheep from Muang to speed up these builds. I know Muang has a stables but it does't lose to much time on production and growth with the swap.

Muang - Temple to Circus.

If your wondering about units I suggest that we buy a NE in Sukho (460). If we went for Machinery ASAP I'd work some archers into these builds.

I'll leave an Elephant a horse and the warrior around Si Sat for defence here. I'm hoping Sydney will do a little damage to some of Liz's units.

I'll aim to get in place to if not actually take Hastings but it might take to long for my set.

Umm thoughts? Have I missed anything?
 
I already played most of the turns grandad. Welcome back, by the way. If you want to follow me that would work best with my schedule. But if you want to jump in now, that's fine with me too. I'll just scrap my turns and follow you on Monday.
 
It's 10 turns for the HS, by the way. Oh, and there's some additional information you should know when considering this...

Spoiler :
Warsaw wants us to produce a Great Engineer.
 
What time is it in Europe & Australia right now? About 9:30 pm and 7:30 am? I'm never posting at the same time as everyone else here. I guess grandad is playing right now.:lol: I'm just going to finish my turns and post the save and let you all decide what to do. I changed my mind about HS as I figured everyone would want to try for it for the obvious reasons and to get the free influence with Warsaw. I'll put it up in an hour or so.
 
No, not playing. I'm a believer in not replaying sets except in exceptional circumstances so I'll go next.
 
I'm just going to finish my turns and post the save and let you all decide what to do. I changed my mind about HS as I figured everyone would want to try for it for the obvious reasons and to get the free influence with Warsaw. I'll put it up in an hour or so.
Yeah, I think your set should stand. But could you next time post before you play, something like 'Okay, I've got the save, these are my thoughts, this is what I think I'll be doing?'
That's costumary for Succession Games. If someone lives in a peculiar time zone we'll just take a bit more time.
 
TURN 100
Theology finished and I set us for Education. It says 15 turns, but the NC finishes in 4 turns so that should shave some turns off. I’ve been playing the game simultaneously on my own since about turn 70ish (got the idea from Gozpel). When I built the NC it took 7 turns off the late Medieval techs, but for some reason (probably because I built it earlier) the NC only winds up taking 4 turns off these techs. I may have queued up Machinery, so take a look at Grandad before you start your turns.

I noticed we’re making only 2 GPT now and we have a Temple and Stone Works under construction in two of our cities. Our population is 8 in the capital and 6 in our other two cities. These are full-grown Medieval Era cities for me (I don’t do tall very well), so I switch some tiles around to get us some more gold and production. Our cities still have a ton of extra food, except for Si Satch, and we’ll have to do something about that soon.

We’re #2 in literacy behind Ramesses. I think my guestimation about him going science and building the NC early was correct. I think the Egypt AI has calculated we’re going for a science victory (based on the wonders we’ve built) and the Indian AI has calculated we’re going for a cultural victory (based on the wonders we’ve built). The truth is, even we don’t know what we’re doing. We’re #3 in manufactured goods and have a slight lead over everyone in soldiers.

I notice Liz’s soldiers are in hot pursuit of our fleeing elephants. Hilarious.

TURN 101
One of Liz’s pikes maneuver themselves right in the middle of three of our NE units. So, it’s managed to get itself flanked by both sides with no support. Again, hilarious. I kill it.
Spoiler :


I upgraded both horsemen to NE (sorry Optional, I felt I needed them, and it turned out that I did). I put two more horsemen in the queue in Si Satch and Muang Saluang and moved them to the top. Again, I felt we needed them, and after you read this I hope you all agree.

TURN 102
Genoa declared war on us (allied by Liz). I have no idea where they are.

Washington conquered Cape Town.

Catherine enters Medieval Era

Liz stole another worker from Sydney, so that’s 30 free influence when we get it back

TURN 103
Washington asks us to declare war on Oda. No.

Liz is actually trying to assault us around Si Satch. Sometimes it feels like the AI is trying to loose. I kill two archers.

Warsaw wants a Great Engineer.

Japan, Egypt, and an unmet player all denounce Washington for sacking Cape Town.

TURN 104
NC finished in the capital and I start the Hagia Sophia. We’re at 27 production in the capital. It’ll take 10 turns. We can take the Great Engineer Warsaw wants and build one of the powerful Education wonders with it.

Already time for another social policy. I take Organized Religion because Grandad was kind enough to let me go first. Well, that and it’s the best choice since we’re already in Piety. We have 21 turns until our next policy which is perfect timing for Legalism.

Our trade route to Muang Saluang is complete and we’re back to 17 GPT.

India made another friend.

We meet one of the friends India has been making, Suleiman. He’s already friendly and fairly rich (30 GPT - probably in on of the 8 or so golden ages that the AI gets). I swap open borders with him because we’re still scouting. Suleiman is also friends with Egypt and has also denounced Washington, Oda and Catherine.

TURN 105
Liz tries to launch an assault on Muang Saluang. It’s a good thing I started those horse units because most of our military has been regrouped to assault Hastings.

Ramesses built the Colossus.

I kill another archer near Sydney and one near Hastings. So far that’s 4 dead archers and one dead pike for Liz, no losses for us. Hastings actually had two archers and two pike units defending it, so I lead with our warrior meat shields to soften them up a bit and give us more room to build better units.

Only one lousy XP away from a Great General before the turn ends. Most of the assault on Hastings will be without one.

We’ve got a good position around the western side of Hastings and I’ve started a road there in case we have to make a Hastings retreat (get it?) like we did from York. I really expected more from Liz. No walls at all and the AI pulled it’s units behind the city for a counter-attack.
Spoiler :


TURN 106
Cathy wants to be friends. I want to be more than friends. It just isn’t gonna work out.

We get our Great General but loose one of our meat shields. The warrior I placed on the northeastern side of the river near Hastings gets mauled by the pike, which is fine. The pike only takes 3 damage, which is total BS.

Washington declares war on Oda.

Japan denounces Russia.

Gandhi builds Chichen Itza. I’m going to enjoy attacking him the most.

I blow up another archer with one of our warriors near Muang Saluang and deal 15 damage on Hastings with only two elephant shots. I could have moved the elephant you see on the northern side of the city after he attacked, but I want to show you something I’ve noticed about the AI. Even if the AI has two units that could cause you serious damage, or even kill one of your units, it won’t do it if that unit is super powerful and will leave them severely wounded and exposed to counter attack. This is why you often see them apparently offering themselves to a line of your melee units. This isn’t always true, of course, but common enough that I’d rather sit there and not loose my position in the siege (the AI WILL move onto your vacated tile).
Spoiler :


TURN 107
Sure enough, Liz’s pikes don’t attack. A settler is born in Hastings and why not… It’s not like there’ll ever be a happiness penalty for settling every fourth tile on the map.

Egypt and Russia sign a research agreement. Egypt is definitely playing a science game.

Horseman finishes in Muang Saluang and accepts another English archer sacrifice.

We take Hastings… with a warrior.
Spoiler :

Hastings has a library and it’s settler becomes our worker. We immediately sell the gems to Washington and Suleiman for 480 gold. They both had spare luxuries we could have traded for (sugar and fur) but I’d rather take their gold.

We meet Singapore near Suleiman‘s borders. They‘re a hostile maritime city state with whales. They have no ally and apparently no one is protecting them.

TURN 108
The most hated man in our little CiV world wants to be friends. No thanks, Washington. We’re good.

Liz made peace with Ramesses, which is a good thing, because Ramesses had changed his focus to Coventry. That should have been our city.
Spoiler :


The pikes around Hastings are running for their lives. I mow one down with a NE in the flat terrain to the north and we’re stalking the other one that’s trying to get to the shore in the south.

I want to mention something about promotions and how I promoted our NE so far. I noticed our Scarcher is double promoted for open terrain, which is fine, but I usually promote most of my ranged units for rough terrain. I just want to share my reasoning for that. While open terrain promotions are great for melee, because that’s where they get killed, rough terrain promotions are better for ranged units because units they attack in rough terrain always get a bonus and units they attack in the open always get a penalty. I’m not trying to tell anyone what to do, I just wanted to share that thought. And now that I have, I’m going to contradict myself and tell you that I promoted most of our NE with rough terrain promotions. I did this because of the attack on Hastings for the most part, and because mounted units don’t benefit from terrain promotions. I would normally split them about half and half, but we only have one or two open terrain NE right now. When the others get promotions, we might want to balance it out.

Killed one of the last remaining units that attacked Muang Saluang with our new NE. There’s still 2 pikes and an archer near Canterbury. I have 3 more NE headed that way.

Gandhi already has Knights. He beelines Chivalry for his not-so-special castle. Our units have a 50% bonus on mounted units, so we shouldn’t be worried.

The temple finishes in Muang Saluang. The foreign advisor suggests Machu Picchu. I normally ignore the advisors, but I love that wonder. Trouble is it would take 25 turns in that city, so no. I start a market. Grandad, when you open the save check the queues in these cities. I have a bad habit of using the queue and I think I saved it this way. I put a temple above the stone works in Si Satch because we’ll be at our next policy in 15 turns and if I let the stone works finish first we’d just barely make it for Legalism, or miss it by one turn. I believe there’s also a temple in the queue for the capital.

TURN 109
Liz offers a weak peace deal, but it’s a good sign. I refuse.
Spoiler :


Liz makes one more attempt at Muang Saluang.
Spoiler :


I blow up three more archers near Muang Saluang but there’s still three pikes and an archer nearby.

Catherine declares war on Ramesses. Egypt is dead last in soldiers, which has me a bit concerned (that Cathy will roll him quickly), but at least this cancels their research agreement.

TURN 110
I kill a pike near Muang Saluang with a NE and an archer with a warrior. I only see one more pike, but there should be two.

The last remaining pike from Hastings escapes into the drink because of a cheap insta-heal. I got one of those RNG screws on a “decisive victory.” It healed and moved, took 3 damage from our Scarcher, and then sailed away (probably to Coventry).

Demographics
Spoiler :

We’re 2nd now in manufactured goods. We’re still #1 in soldiers, but by a wider margin now. Remember though, the game gives a very high might score to mounted units, so this isn’t as great as it looks. We need to supplement our military with ranged units immediately. All we have is that Scarcher. I left all of the gold we earned during my turn in the bank. We have over 1,000 gold now. Let’s consider a military city state, spamming archers or just buying a couple of archers.

We’ve fallen to 5th place in literacy, but I believe that’s only because we haven’t cleaned up all of the smaller techs. I usually always build the Education world wonder trinity and use research agreements in my games. I know it’s boring, but that’s what I do. I don’t care if we do it or not. We can take Notre Dame if everyone wants (assuming we get Hagia Sophia) but we have to be prepared to deal with the AI at equal tech all game long.

Grandad, you’re in a good spot to take Coventry. There might be a pike down there and I know there’s a trireme, but that shouldn’t be an issue. You’ll have to heal the units for a bit because they’re a little damaged. We only lost the warrior and gained 2 elephants on my turns. There should be 4 NE near Muang Saluang. That’s the best approach, because the city is on that side of the river. If you get the GG over there and supplement that force with maybe another NE (you probably don’t even need that, but just in case you have to rotate one or two out) you can take that city and we won’t have to worry about our backs. Liz was even nice enough to start improving the silk for us.
 

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Yeah, I think your set should stand. But could you next time post before you play, something like 'Okay, I've got the save, these are my thoughts, this is what I think I'll be doing?'
That's costumary for Succession Games. If someone lives in a peculiar time zone we'll just take a bit more time.

I'm a noob... I'll do that next time. Grandad, thanks for letting me go now. The weekend and early part of the week get pretty busy for me. If you want you can take my turns in the next go around. I know you missed a round, and I certainly don't mind sitting one out.
 
Nice looking set NotSure.

One city down...

Will look at the save later/tomorrow (playing Crusader Kings 2 ATM as Quill18's LP makes me want to!).
 
Nice looking set NotSure.

One city down...

Will look at the save later/tomorrow (playing Crusader Kings 2 ATM as Quill18's LP makes me want to!).

I just saw an LP of CK2. Looks like a great game. I'll probably get it next week myself. Enjoy!
 
Awesome looking set! Finally some real progress on the war front.

Sorry for responding a bit slow, I had just played an intense set myself the day before and feel a little too flushed out for looking at another SG save and do all the analyzing that I normally like to do.
Apologies about that, especially to NotSure, I can have a few days like that in an SG, it's not unusual. I'll pick myself up again. No problem if Grandad is a little distracted, it gives me a little bit more time to get my focus back. Hopefully tomorrow I'll respond with a bit more depth!
 
Just looking to see what Liz will give us for peace. As things stand she'll give us Coventry, Canterbury, all her gold and GPT and peace with our CSs.

I'd say no still but what do others think?


We get our GSci next turn. What do we want to use him for? We potentially get a GEng in 3 turns as well. Depending on what we want from the GEng we might want to go for different techs for the GSci. If we want to build Notre Dame or Porcelain Tower then save the GSci for Machinery. If we would rather use our GSci for Banking we can rush the Forbidden Palace.

It seems a waste to use the GSci on a low value tech but maybe Machinery is most useful for us sooner.

If we go for Machinery after Education I'm going to slip some Archers in to the build order.

With our gold I think I'll drop some on Warsaw. Leave the rest for potential archer upgrades and Sydney later.

Our capital can stay as it is ATM but when the Hagia is in I'll getting growing faster again. Archers after the Temple thats in the queue?

Si Sat. Going to stop working CdP so it grows more. Going to farm the river hills as well.

Muang. Swap the Market out for a Circus. We're going to need a :) margin to absorb growth and new cities we capture.

I'll heal our troops a bit before pushing on to Coventry.

We can sell our horses so I will.

Anything I've missed?
 
Just looking to see what Liz will give us for peace. As things stand she'll give us Coventry, Canterbury, all her gold and GPT and peace with our CSs.

I'd say no still but what do others think?
I don't like taking cities in peace deals unless I plan to sell them. They're usually overpopulated (won't be in this case) and the center tile provides no yields (city tile bug). So all that bonus food we get from city states would be wasted, as well as the two or three production from the base tile. It doesn't seem like a big deal at first, but when you look at the size of your cities and what they've produced later in the game you can definitely see a difference.

We get our GSci next turn. What do we want to use him for? We potentially get a GEng in 3 turns as well. Depending on what we want from the GEng we might want to go for different techs for the GSci. If we want to build Notre Dame or Porcelain Tower then save the GSci for Machinery. If we would rather use our GSci for Banking we can rush the Forbidden Palace.
My vote is for Chemistry. We didn't get any iron and probably won't have any soon, so that will be the first opportunity for us to build siege units. This really depends on our overall strategy though. If we decide how we want to finish the game these decisions will be a lot easier.

It seems a waste to use the GSci on a low value tech but maybe Machinery is most useful for us sooner.
My thoughts exactly. We can tech to it fairly easily and I would favor some RA to speed it up a little more.

If we go for Machinery after Education I'm going to slip some Archers in to the build order.
I concur. A little ranged help to soften up those hard counter units will be nice.

With our gold I think I'll drop some on Warsaw. Leave the rest for potential archer upgrades and Sydney later.
If we get that GE, you may not need to do this for a while. How much do we get for completing a quest? I think it's pretty significant.

Our capital can stay as it is ATM but when the Hagia is in I'll getting growing faster again. Archers after the Temple thats in the queue?

Si Sat. Going to stop working CdP so it grows more. Going to farm the river hills as well.

Muang. Swap the Market out for a Circus. We're going to need a :) margin to absorb growth and new cities we capture.
We'll also need gold if we take that citizen off of CdP. It goes down pretty fast.

I'll heal our troops a bit before pushing on to Coventry.

We can sell our horses so I will.

Anything I've missed?
We're already selling 6 of our 8 horses. If we sell the last two we'll have to build NE in all of our cities if we want more. Right now it's more efficient to build horsemen to upgrade in Si Satch and Muang Saluang. We have eight NE now, but I would build more and press our advantage. The AI is producing a lot of units. They're crappy now, but they won't be soon.

One other thing I forgot to mention about promotions. You might want to consider giving a few of the NE Medic promotions. Generally I like to head straight for the March promotion, but the Medic promotion might be useful for units that don't receive defensive terrain bonuses. They also might be eligible for an extra movement promotion? It's less helpful, but still pretty nice because mounted units often have to do the rotation drill.

Alright, that's it from me. Have fun!
 
Looks good Grandad. I can't see the save atm, but it sounds like we are in a good spot.
 
I'll take a look at the save, I couldn't get into the site for a while, but I'll vote no to selling our last 2 horses.
Also no to buying Naresuans straight off the shelf. I believe always in Civ 5 it's much cheaper, if you really want to buy a unit, to buy the unupgraded unit and then gold-upgrade it. For example buy warrior > upgrade to swordsman costs a lot less than a straight swordsman buy.

I'm not sure how much influence we still have with Warsaw, but keep in mind an engineer will make them a lot happier with us.
Also keep in mind there was some CS somewhere with 6 iron, I think it was a cultural one. I stumbled upon it in my set and it was allied with 'an unmet player', no doubt Beer and Belly, since we met him since. You can expect a CS with 6 iron always to be picked up by someone, of course, and I'm not sure about Suleiman's financial situation. I'm just reminding about the CS, I'll try look at the save now if I see more worth mentioning.
EDIT: Oh, no to peace, of course, that's not what we're in for!
 
Well, I had a short look, didn't cover everything.
I wonder why the stone works was abandoned in Si Satchanalai? I missed any reference about that in the last turn log. The stone works is 5 turns to finish now, it'll speed up the temple after that, which stands at another 8 turns without the aid of a stone works, the next policy is be chosen in 13 turns, so that all fits. Why was that changed?
One citizen is working a crappy unupgraded forest tile in Maung Saluang, maybe put him in the temple if that doesn't upset the policy timing? well, I'm sure Grandad can sort those things out himself.

To come back on the upgrade horse > Naresuan, I don't have a problem at all with players upgrading horses to Naresuans if they see a need for that in their set. The need was obviously there, with regards of Hastings.
My previous post againt the upgrade was more meant in general; a horse has something the Naresuan hasn't, so they shouldn't be automatically upgraded without thinking. Also, horses can be upgraded to Naresuans at any time, but once you've done that, you can't go back. So you simply leave more possibilities open if you leave some horses around.

Oh, to Grandad, a slight rectification; if you're not planning on producing any horses, you may as well sell those last 2, because I sold the 6 at the start of my set, so they're all coming back at the end of your set anyway.
 
So NotSure suggesting leaving the GSci for Chemistry makes me think we need to consider our mid term goals if not our eventual VC.

For me I see us clearing out "our" peninsular (end of the continent) and totally taking out Liz and Gandhi. Well maybe barring anything thats to rubbish.

If we are going for an all out Conquest victory then using GSci for critical war techs is all good. If we go Science victory then I favore saving GSci for the final and most expensive techs.

Diplo. Don't care but I guess use them to beeline the UN.

Culture is out I guess.


I need to know really so I know what do do with our GSci. I guess I'll just sleep him.

What to do with the GEng? Notre Dame or would people rather the Porcelain Tower [PT]? If we go for the PT I'll see about a RA in my set.

I'm not planning on building any NA this set so I'll sell those horses.

I also like the idea of a Medic NA.
 
Well, I had a short look, didn't cover everything.
I wonder why the stone works was abandoned in Si Satchanalai? I missed any reference about that in the last turn log. The stone works is 5 turns to finish now, it'll speed up the temple after that, which stands at another 8 turns without the aid of a stone works, the next policy is be chosen in 13 turns, so that all fits. Why was that changed?

TURN 108
Grandad, when you open the save check the queues in these cities. I have a bad habit of using the queue and I think I saved it this way. I put a temple above the stone works in Si Satch because we’ll be at our next policy in 15 turns and if I let the stone works finish first we’d just barely make it for Legalism, or miss it by one turn. I believe there’s also a temple in the queue for the capital.

I probably write way too much, but this was in my log. We can probably get them both done before Legalism, but I was just playing it safe. I have no excuse for the citizen on the unimproved forest tile though... Don't know what happened there.
 
The Porcelain Tower or Notre Dame decision is a tough one. If it was Deity, I'd say Porcelain Tower, but we can go either way on Immortal. It depends on how we wnt to play the game from here.

If we want to cripple our neighbors and RA our way to Stealth, then the choice is obvious. If we want to keep rolling through Washington and build a huge empire, we should go with Notre Dame.
 
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