Civilization 5 Rants Thread

I hate that Open Borders deals get cancelled for one turn no matter what you do. Units in the friendly territory get sent somewhere else, which sucks. Why can't you be prompted if the OB are about to end and have a chance to renew them without letting them be cancelled???
 
I hate that Open Borders deals get cancelled for one turn no matter what you do. Units in the friendly territory get sent somewhere else, which sucks. Why can't you be prompted if the OB are about to end and have a chance to renew them without letting them be cancelled???

This is one of mine aswell^^ and I hate when a Civ you made a Dof with declares war on you right after you signed a RA with them. It hurts you more than the AI with its bajillions of gold.
 
I play on strategic map, It's faster and delivers the information I need better. No videos in that mode, for obvious reasons. Basically, when i hit end turn i see the changes on the very spot i have my map centered, unless there is some unit that needs new orders, I which case the map centers there and I have no chance of observing the "action" along the front.
Additional note: damage values from enemy air attacks are still diplayed wrong after patch XYZ and I never know whether I intercepted or shot down enemy aircraft.
 
Well, it is certainly true that every successful Civ 5 empire needs a high population and good progress in technology research, at the minimum.

My point was more that this is true of all versions of Civ. If anything slightly less so in Civ V, mostly because the cultural victory condition forces you to specialise your tech tree more than the equivalent in Civ IV did (and this condition didn't exist in earlier incarnations of the game); sure you benefitted in Civ IV from specialising in culture techs, but all Wonders and most buildings provided culture to some degree and reaching legendary status was more a matter of concentrating Wonder production in key cities than shooting for Theology or whatever, so as with the other victory conditions you could get by with specialising technologically later in the game or not at all. Since Civ V confines culture production to specific building trees, and most Wonders produce less culture than their Civ IV equivalents, and the culture production threshold is higher, you need to specialise a lot more early on, not to mention also consider the relative benefits and drawbacks of expanding (i.e. more culture needed per policy for each extra city, vs. extra culture buildings and Ancien Regime'liberty benefits from expanding).

Population is very definitely key in Civ V, but population usually has equal effects in taller vs. wider empires (science), or more negative effects in wider ones (more unhappiness, slowed policy growth) that to some extent balance the inherent advantages of expansion (more production, more building slots, faster population growth, greater access to resources), which has a significant effect on your choice of wide vs. tall strategy, and offers different advantages in terms of shooting for different victory conditions - in contrast to earlier games where wide was always better regardless of overall strategy.

In that respect, waging limited wars to capture juicy cities or necessary resources is the way to go.

To be honest, I think this *ought* to be a feature Civ games promote. You're dealing with 5,000 years - no wars is neither plausible nor strategically very interesting, and wars just to wipe out the other guy are much the same. In reality most wars *are* fought to secure specific resources or, in some cases, cities. I've mentioned that I sympathise with people who complain Civ V has too much of a combat focus, but I think it's an improvement over most past versions of Civ (and especially Civ IV) that past wars do eventually get forgotten and relations normalise. If the world worked according to Civ IV Britain and France in the 21st Century would never have any diplomatic contact because they're still upset over Agincourt. In Civ IV, if you went to war with someone you were more or less forced to wipe them out altogether or anticipate spending the rest of the game producing units and defensive structures, living with war weariness levels of unhappiness forever more and paying high unit maintenance costs. Unlike Civ V there were no penalties for numbers of cities controlled,. As a result, although Civ IV heavily penalised war initially, continuing a territorial war wasn't penalised the way it is in Civ V. Civ IV war was basically an all-or-nothing affair (the penalty for war weariness, and its growth over time, prompted either aggressive play that ended wars - and civs - quickly, or peaceful play with no wars at all. Nothing inbetween was really a viable option), while Civ V promotes play that targets specific objective cities, declaring peace once these have been achieved, and penalises overextending your conquests.

I guess it is just the erratic AI and the lack of religion/civic bonuses that makes diplomacy even more artificial in Civ 5. The City States definitely improve diplomacy. Now, if only the main AI civs could behave in a more reasonable manner...

This is all too true...

As for buildings, an example would be Barracks. There is no reason to build it in many cities, except to unlock Heroic Epic.

Which I'm not sure I've ever built in Civ V - isn't its effect just giving you an extra barracks bonus in the capital? I don't make as much use as I ought to of barracks in any case.

War wasn't needed for diplomatic victory at all. So called "poor man's domination" (conquer and vassal civs until you had enough population for winning diplo) was only one form of the Civ4 diplomatic victory.

Sorry but as your knowledge about Civ4 is obviously very limited you really shouldn't make strong claims about it.

The diplo condition has been essentially the same through 4 versions of Civ. I'll grant that diplomacy itself was handled better, and rival Civs were generally less aggressive, in Civ IV than in the first two games (with which I'm most familiar), so you're right that it was easier to secure a peaceful diplomatic victory in Civ IV unless your starting location made it difficult for you to grab prime real estate and grow large populations without warfare (in which case why go for a diplomatic victory?). You are however neglecting the context of that comment, which followed a previous paragraph when I'd clarified that I was talking specifically about diplo as pseudo-domination, the commonest form of diplo victory regardless of the fact that you *could* go for it peacefully, as well as my later admission that it was a somewhat flippant comment.
 
Which I'm not sure I've ever built in Civ V - isn't its effect just giving you an extra barracks bonus in the capital? I don't make as much use as I ought to of barracks in any case.

It gives +15% combat strength to all units trained in that city, which is a pretty good bonus, I think.
 
Erm, you mean 15 Exp?

No, here's the information about Heroic Epic:

All newly-trained Units in this City receive the Morale Promotion, improving combat strength by 15%.

Must have built a Barracks in all Cities.
 
Civilization V was developed for one thing and one thing only to appeal to the widest audience possible which meant everything from the ground up was made as simple as possible which is why this game is basically insulting players as soon as they start a game. Civ IV had more features and micromanagement in it's debut that Civ V has after a year, let's not forget that the DLC's and patches after said year should have been in the game already. Too bad Sid Meier won't come take over development as this game is boring. I'll go farther and say CTP had more features and is more enjoyable than V.

As for the supposedly AI smarter? Yeah... you're denounced after a couple turns because the AI thinks you are trying to win the same way as it. Declares War then after 10 turns give's up all it's cities, resources, and gold.

Diplomatic Victory = bribing the most CS, which serve no purpose in strategy just resources which increase happiness. Add to the fact the UN wonder actually affected gameplay. The UN wonder is a clear example of one of two things, lazy development or resources focused on the wrong areas.

Happiness and resources, are equally dumb as the previous game it affected both happiness and trade. V actually reversed this great core gameplay feature and then put it on pills as if scared it might confuse even the most noob of civ players.

Lack of leaders to pick meaning no traits which means no further random play it's basically now aggressive or just pacifist which means the AI just builds one city.

The Policy trees are actually interesting but with the lack of civics makes it predictable and just no fun.


The meaning of this rant = Civilization V was step backwards and I found myself playing and enjoying Civilization.... IV tonight.
 
Basically the issue with Civ 5 is that its Civ 4 for dummies. So many things have been dumbed down, its not nearly as good.

My advice is keep the combat system(ranged units are good, except when 10 archers can kill a giant death robot), but revert everything else back to Civ 4.
 
The best ciV review I've seen by Sulla - http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ5/whatwentwrong.html

Before anyone makes the decision on whether the game has been dumbed down or not, they should have a look at that review.

You're right, that is an extremely good commentary, and as a fan of Civ V to a degree (or, at least, someone inclined to look critically at both it and Civ IV rather than wallow in nostalgia), it raises some issues that prompt me to rethink some of my past arguments (for example, I've argued strongly that wide vs. tall is now a more realistic option than in past versions of Civ because happiness is a stronger constraint on expansion than the previous systems) - and, like you, I think it comprehensively lays to rest the bizarre assumption here that a mass-market, populist empire-building game was 'dumbed down' to appeal to a broader audience than its 8 million plus prior sales indicate it already had.

All the issues people raise with the game are addressed here and, correctly it appears, characterised as efforts at solving past design problems that proved ineffective (as he suggests happiness as a constraint on city sprawl were), poor AI programming or failed innovations. I remain unconvinced by the argument that the game is now designed around its combat system, at least as he extrapolates this to the restrictions on production and accelerated science. I also think, as I've mentioned here before, that criticism of the diplomatic victory condition per se is misjudged, when its flaws result from a mechanism that makes it too easy to buy city-state favour and a bad AI that's insufficiently good at either competing for that favour or eradicating city states that threaten their own majority - I maintain that the victory condition, seen in isolation, is superior to "Diplomacy by population" of older Civ titles.

But it's clear that the perceived flaws with Civ V are a case of the phenomenon he notes with other games such as Master of Orion 3 (although it's hard to argue that Civ V is quite as spectacular a failure as that game) - targeting exactly the same audience it always has, but misjudging what they want and/or failing to execute it properly.

I've read the forum couple weeks now and you guys are so clueless, you want complex games go to Matrixgames or Battlefront.

I don't know those games, but from the sound of 'Battlefront' at least, I presume you refer to strategic complexity. Although that's the language often used here, it's not strategic complexity people are pining for - this is something Civilization has never offered, for reasons I gave earlier in the thread. Rather, people miss options that they feel provided strategic diversity, not the same thing at all. You don't call, say, Eisenhower a good military strategist because he chose Operation Overlord, say, over half a dozen alternatives, and he wouldn't have been any better as a strategist if he'd chosen it over half a million alternatives. You call him a good strategist because he executed the single strategy he selected well, ensuring that strategy could anticipate and counter resistance, that it could adapt well to situations that weren't anticipated, and so forth.

That's complex strategy, of the sort you might see in chess, a game that has relatively few overall strategic options at competitive levels of play. Chess famously has far fewer options than Go, but it is no less strategic a game, since the same considerations of space control, identifying and responding to threats, and executing a win condition while denying your opponent the ability to do the same apply. Once you're playing the game and both players have settled on strategies, it's entirely irrelevant to gameplay (the actual strategic aspect of the game) whether you could have chosen between two different strategies or two hundred; the strategy lies in the execution.

By contrast, take Civilization. Past games in the series have had many more options than Civ V, as vociferously complained about here. Is Civ V less strategically complex? Not really. In previous Civ games strategies were inflexible and interaction with opponents' strategies limited; your play wasn't dictated or even much affected by which of 4-5 victory conditions your opponent was shooting for, let alone by the specifics of their strategy for achieving that condition, and the only real option you had to directly interfere with an opponent's play was warfare (or espionage, but that generally had limited effects on actual achievement of a win condition). All of which is still true of Civ V. The only other options you could use were to expand to take resources away from an opponent or wonder-rush,, and both are found in Civ V, as is war (and the additional strategic element of city state control). These are for the most part blunt instruments and none of the above (except city-state control and espionage) are applied strategically - you take a resource if you see an opponent near it, regardless of whether that resource is important to him or whether that will affect his strategy. Wonders deny everyone else a wonder, they aren't targeted at defeating strategy X or player Y. None of the Civ I-IV elements - wonder-rush, espionage, resource control - or in most cases city-states in Civ V act to defeat a strategy, just to delay it. In chess you don't win by going for mate before your opponent and delaying him from doing so, you win by actively preventing your opponent from getting mate. Civilization doesn't offer this ability.

So Civ IV and earlier games were more strategically diverse than Civ V (although I've argued elsewhere that this diversity was at least partially illusory due to the limited viability of many of the options presented), but essentially exactly the same game in terms of strategic complexity - ultimately, not very complex. In fact I found Civ V had much more of the Civ feel than I'd originally expected, while reports here suggest the reverse is a more common feeling, and that may reflect the fact that I've always thought of it in terms of meeting the win conditions of a strategy game, not in terms of whether Code of Laws is in the tech tree or other peripheral details.

EDIT: As an example of what I mean by this latter, I see from most comments around here that 1UPT vs stacks is generally seen as the biggest change to Civ V from the earlier versions. Until I started reading the forum, I hadn't really registered it - yes, I now needed to change the way I arranged my units on the map. But basically units are for war, and war serves the same strategic purpose in Civ V as it does in the earlier titles, without either less or much more nuance (although the unhappiness penalties for capturing cities make choosing when and which cities to annex, raze or puppet a relevant strategic decision in a way it never was in earlier games, which for a start never provided any incentive to use the Raze option that people are now busy complaining no longer exists for capitals). Since war is much the same strategically, the fact that the mechanics governing it have changed is, from my perspective, largely cosmetic.
 
The 1upt doesn't bother me, nor do the wonders, or the buildings. What bothers me is the AI. The AI seems to be near random in it's decisions, but that may just be because of the lack of info. I think that, for the most part, the game feels rather clumsy, because of the lack of info at my fingertips.

An example of information being a major factor in whether people (at least, civ IV people) like the game is the BAT or BUG mod for Civ IV. The mod only gave you more insight into how the game was working, and added some different graphics, rearranged a few charts, added more options, etc. But, that is probably one of the most popular mods that was not shipped with the game, simply because you have a greater understanding of the game. And when an AI did something stupid once in a while, you could say, "oh, it's just because it's an AI.". The AI's also had their own very distinct personalities, so when Montezuma declares war on you, it's likely that the only thing you are suprised about is the fact that he waited more than two turns to do it.

But in Civ V, you have no clue why the AI does anything. They denounce you, which ultimately is just saying, "we hate you and eventually will try to kill you", and then declare war on you and make pests of themselves, and suddenly all the other civs are nervous about you, and start denouncing you, and by that point, I just give up because it seems to me that the AI is built to hinder your progress rather than to have actual competition.

Thus, I prefer Civ IV, partially because I understand how it works better, and partially because it feels like the AI's are really trying to win, as opposed to just teaming up on the player in order to stop them from winning.
 
it seems to me that the AI is built to hinder your progress rather than to have actual competition.

This is I think a very succinct summary of *the* key problem with the AI. The AI's program basically appears to be "Beat the human" rather than "Win the game". Simply changing the routines so that each AI wants to win in its own right, and doesn't care whether the civilization next door is a human or a robot, would do more to fix the AI's gameplay than specific fiddling with its diplomacy or tactical routines; each AI would interact with other civs on their own merits and in the ways that best suits its specific situation and strategy.
 
Civilization V was developed for one thing and one thing only to appeal to the widest audience possible

This is true in the same way that it's true of the multi-million selling Civs I through IV (although most of the Civ franchise's sales were, I believe, in the first and fourth incarnations). It's not in itself an argument against anything.

which meant everything from the ground up was made as simple as possible which is why this game is basically insulting players as soon as they start a game.

A claim which relies on a completely unsubstantiated assumption: that wide audiences want simplicity in mechanics. If you look around at most extremely popular games - from the populist Civilization franchise which is not only credited with "popularising" 4x strategy games, but is by now such a popular brand name that it may be the only such game to have been translated to 'dumb' platforms like consoles, through Starcraft II (the best-selling computer game of 2010), one thing you tend to find they have in common is that they are often mechanically more complex than many less popular games in their genres (Civilization was always mechanically more complicated than Master of Orion, for example; whereas most modern RTS games dispense with the complexities of resource management demanded in Starcraft, and either remove or automate resource generation).

Civilization Revolution is a case in point, as another thread indicated that its science vs. gold economy management required more micromanagement and was more complex to manage mechanically than either the classic Civ or Civ V computer approaches: Civ Rev required turn-based decision-making at an individual city level. Classic Civ just required clicking your mouse on a slider whenever your income was running low. Which entails that either, contrary to general feeling here, console games are aimed at a more complex (and, on the assumption that greater complexity in games is somehow correlated with the intelligence of players) generally brighter audience than the traditional Civilization games, or that complex detail is preferred to mechanically simple strategy gaming among average gaming audiences.

Civ IV had more features and micromanagement in it's debut that Civ V has after a year,

Also not an argument against, merely an argument that they're different. Civ V had more macromanagement than Civ IV had in nearly four years and two expansions.

let's not forget that the DLC's and patches after said year should have been in the game already.

That can be said of any patches in any game. As for DLC, I largely agree - sure the basic game had a decent number of civs, and adding new ones as DLC and scenarios is entirely reasonable, but some of the specific ones left out stink of cynicism - Babylon? Spain? Denmark (when Vikings are even in the intro movie)? Okay, Polynesia's a bit more 'out there', Korea's peripheral in Civ games generally etc. so I can understand those being left out of the main release. At least some scenarios ought to have been in the core game, and some of the standard terrestrial maps (fine, make donut maps, "plus" maps and that sort of thing DLC, and perhaps very specific ones like Amazon or Japan, but the general continent-scale maps like Asia should have been in). And this is a game with 20 years' history of naming its 'hero' buildings Wonders - and yet three of the standard list of ancient Wonders of the World weren't in the core game and had to be added as DLC.

Too bad Sid Meier won't come take over development as this game is boring.

I presume you realise that Sid Meier had nothing at all to do with the development of either Civilization III or Civilization IV, and relatively little with Civilization II? He designed a game called Civilization, which in his conception was actually rather simple, perhaps with as few features as Civ V or fewer, certainly fewer wonders, no national wonders, fewer units, fewer building types, fewer resource types, fewer civilizations, no civilization-specific traits whatsoever, and in which only three terrain improvements - mines, roads and farms - existed. All of the subsequent versions of the game banking on his name have departed substantially from that model, and have had little or nothing to do with Meier.

Sid Meier is also the guy who's on record as describing Civilization Revolution - again seen around here as the 'dumb' kids' version of the game - as the version of Civilization he always wanted to make.

As for the supposedly AI smarter? Yeah... you're denounced after a couple turns because the AI thinks you are trying to win the same way as it. Declares War then after 10 turns give's up all it's cities, resources, and gold.

I think the AI is universally regarded as bad - not sure anyone's claimed it's smarter than Civ IV, so not sure why it's "supposedly" smarter.

As for peace declarations, the AI is definitely inclined to make stupid deals, but in my experience it generally offers peace at intelligent moments - to lift a siege on its cities, or if the reason it declared war was to capture one of your cities and its attack failed, for example. In that regard at least it's superior to my experience of previous Civ games' approaches to war-related diplomacy.

Diplomatic Victory = bribing the most CS, which serve no purpose in strategy just resources which increase happiness.

Firstly, maritime, cultural and militaristic states give you bonuses other than resources, which gives incentives to ally with them (well, except militaristic ones, which give a crappy bonus) other than victory, and reasons to befriend (when you won't get the resource bonus but will get the other).

Secondly it's not possible to decouple happiness management from strategy, and deciding which resource you need (and hence which city state), whether to select one you already have in order to trade for a 'better' resource, when you need to invest money in securing a city-state resource to boost happiness vs. making happiness buildings, trading existing resources or settling sites with additional resources, are all very obviously strategic decisions.

Thirdly, diplomatic victory is hampered by bad AI - the AI doesn't contest control of city-states if you bribe them enough, and it doesn't do anything about the ones it can't control because you have them too tightly in your grasp. If the AI were better, city-states that pose a diplomatic threat and can't be secured diplomatically would routinely be destroyed by rivals aiming to prevent a diplomatic victory - I understand this quite commonly happens in multiplayer. Play for diplo victory when there aren't enough surviving city states to dictate the outcome, or if you're playing in 'disable city-states' mode, and you're forced to use other means of diplomacy (ignoring the obvious point that bribery is a form of diplomacy). So in principle the condition is preferable to the classical Civ system, it just needs improvement to the AI to work well in real games.

Add to the fact the UN wonder actually affected gameplay.

In Civ IV. Not in Civ II or Civ III. In Civ I it had an effect that was unrelated to diplomatic victory.

Happiness and resources, are equally dumb as the previous game it affected both happiness and trade. V actually reversed this great core gameplay feature and then put it on pills as if scared it might confuse even the most noob of civ players.

This sentence lacks clarity - what affected both happiness and trade? Or do you mean happiness/luxury production was linked to commerce rather than trade?

Lack of leaders to pick meaning no traits

In Civ IV only a minority of civilizations had multiple leader options, and fewer still before the expansions, and, frankly, they were only there to make up the numbers because the game needed one of every two-trait combination and the designers ran out of ideas for different empires to add that would fit the 'missing' combinations.

which means no further random play it's basically now aggressive or just pacifist which means the AI just builds one city.

From testimony on this forum, this is probably not the case. We don't know specifically what the leader traits are or how they influence diplomacy as a result of the opaque diplomacy system, but there are lots of reports of, for instance, the Inca or Greeks being especially aggressive, Gandhi making use of nuclear weapons (quite possibly as an in-joke among the developers) etc. Different AI civs in Civ V do appear to play differently from one another, although admittedly it's not clear from my own experience of the game that they necessarily play in ways that make good use of their civilization trait (I don't know that the Germans are particularly prone to attacking barbarians, for example, and I haven't seen much sign that the Babylonians advance technologically more quickly than other AI Civs).

The Policy trees are actually interesting but with the lack of civics makes it predictable and just no fun.

There are many more policies available than you can select in any game. Granted they could be better-balanced to make certain picks less 'must-have' at point X in the game, but then so could the civics in Civ IV (what was the downside for taking slavery at the first opportunity, again?).

The meaning of this rant = Civilization V was step backwards and I found myself playing and enjoying Civilization.... IV tonight.

I'll still happily enjoy both, and indeed will return to my latest Civ V game tonight. However, whether or not it is a 'step backwards', your own analysis of Civ V (such as the insistence on the lack of strategic choices offered by city-states) is superficial - even if it does indeed lack depth (and from a strategic perspective, all Civ games do), you aren't going to show that by displaying a very limited knowledge of what depth the game does have.
 
Sorry in advance, Phil, and walking the fine line that separates Ad Hominem from argumentation (which I will try not to trespass),

I just need to ask you this:

Who are you really?

I mean, you obviously know how to write, and well, and correctly argument, which suggests your intellectual profile is above average (which, to me at least, partially contradicts your "fanatism" for the most simplified version of this franchise), you write long passages full of ideas, arguments and justifications that sound very ellaborate... yet you just registered a few weeks ago, seem to aim exclusively at the RANTS thread, and use extraordinary amounts of time trying to derail any single opposition to the game...

Pardon me, but that combination of facts seems too suspicious to me. I mean, who in the world has so much time to defend a stupid game to the extent you are, WITHOUT any particular, probably unknown to us, interest in the matter?

So, pardon me again, but... WHO are you really?

Yes, I know, it's more of a rethorical question, because there is no way in this world that a person having a particular interest in "boosting" a conflictive and polarizing game, will confess that...and the source of his particular interest.

Sorry, bro, I had to ask. You know, "Contradictions do not exist; one of the assumptions must be false", as Francisco D'Anconia used to say, in Ayn Rand's masterpiece.

Regards,
 
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