Cataphracts

ShunNakamura · Jul 11, 2012

My first thought on the Byzantine unit was 'meh'. However, the defensive bonuses are coming in a lot more use than I originally imagined. I lost a lot fewer Cats than I thought I would given how badly I was outnumbered(and the number of spears running about). However, while mounted that gain defensive bonuses are somewhat useful. . . the fact that it doesn't carry over still makes them very 'meh' in my eyes. Now if it carried over it still wouldn't be top tier, but it would be interesting(and to be honest that is all I care about, an average UU that manages to be unique is much more enjoyable for me to use than a powerhouse UU that is bland as can be).

So I guess. . . discuss the Cataphracts and whether or not they are 'meh'

.

Volapyk · Jul 11, 2012

I must admit, at first I really liked the Byzantine for their strong religions and early UU's. But upon a second look they aren't that great. They really lack syngergy in their uniques.

Their Quinqemeres are absolutely powerful and will give you dominance over the seas for a long period of time, however cities quickly become so powerful you can't take them with the quins, giving them more of a supporting role, either as defensive or as escorts. The same goes for the Cataphracts, they will give you a huge advantage on the battlefields but wont help you much against the cities themself, meaning again they are there to support your catapults and other units that will actually take the cities. Dont get me wrong they are both powerful and will help you in early aggression. However since you really need to focus a lot of research and production in the early game to even have a chance of getting a religion, and lets face it, their UA is far stronger than their UU's. Doing any sort of rush would cost you dearly in the late game, even in so far as to nullify it completely if you never get to found a religion.

Worth noting is that cataphracts will, as other mounteded units, be countered by the ressource less and earlier available spearman, though not countered as hard as other horsemen units they are still no where near the strength of a swordsman. Maybe in multiplayer where the speed of mounted units is really needed they will shine more, but against the AI who can't figure out how to defend their ranged units anyway, you really don't need anything that speedy and voulnerable.

Also anyone else noticed that the Byzantine start doesn't favor horses? 4 out of my 5 games as the Byzantine have had a horseless start, instead they tend to favor a costal or a jungle start, which I find somewhat annoying.

ShahJahanII · Jul 11, 2012

Volapyk said:
I must admit, at first I really liked the Byzantine for their strong religions and early UU's. But upon a second look they aren't that great. They really lack syngergy in their uniques.

Their Quinqemeres are absolutely powerful and will give you dominance over the seas for a long period of time, however cities quickly become so powerful you can't take them with the quins, giving them more of a supporting role, either as defensive or as escorts. The same goes for the Cataphracts, they will give you a huge advantage on the battlefields but wont help you much against the cities themself, meaning again they are there to support your catapults and other units that will actually take the cities. Dont get me wrong they are both powerful and will help you in early aggression. However since you really need to focus a lot of research and production in the early game to even have a chance of getting a religion, and lets face it, their UA is far stronger than their UU's. Doing any sort of rush would cost you dearly in the late game, even in so far as to nullify it completely if you never get to found a religion.

Worth noting is that cataphracts will, as other mounteded units, be countered by the ressource less and earlier available spearman, though not countered as hard as other horsemen units they are still no where near the strength of a swordsman. Maybe in multiplayer where the speed of mounted units is really needed they will shine more, but against the AI who can't figure out how to defend their ranged units anyway, you really don't need anything that speedy and voulnerable.

Also anyone else noticed that the Byzantine start doesn't favor horses? 4 out of my 5 games as the Byzantine have had a horseless start, instead they tend to favor a costal or a jungle start, which I find somewhat annoying.

I think you might mean the Dromon, Quinquiremes are the Carthaginian Unique Unit. Although I agree with you on Cataphracts being supporting units for catapults and such.

ShunNakamura · Jul 14, 2012

I haven't used Cats offensively yet(since the first war was before Math and I didn't have dual Cats to send after Arabia). However, I am now in awe of them and not to surprised defensive bonuses aren't allowed to carry over.

My island has me, Arabia, and Germany. Germany and I were decent buds, but I have learned not to trust him in the past so I never leave my german flank unguarded. Sure enough he, the score leader with nearly half again the military power of any one else in existence, declares war.

And scares the crap out of me. Landsknechts Ahoy! A friggin carpet of them. I just teched iron working not long before and linked up my whole 2 iron in my entire kingdom. I didn't have civil service yet so my army was Composites and a Horseman replacement. And he of course had at least two Landsknechts to each of my units. He also had a number of Catapults running around.

I figured game over. Lo and behold 15 turns later his decimated force is retreating. Apparently experienced Drill II Cats fortified on hills and forests are pretty tough to dislodge even with pikes(I only ever attacked with the Composites/city unless a finishing blow was needed). They are also a lot easier to 'refresh' in such terrain than swords.

Letting that ability go up all the way too tanks would probably be a bit much. Still wish it promoted up the line though. UU's without a carry over promotion feel kinda meh and boring to me(particularly when they obsolete fast).

Babri · Jul 14, 2012

Volapyk said:
I must admit, at first I really liked the Byzantine for their strong religions and early UU's. But upon a second look they aren't that great. They really lack syngergy in their uniques.

Their Quinqemeres are absolutely powerful and will give you dominance over the seas for a long period of time, however cities quickly become so powerful you can't take them with the quins, giving them more of a supporting role, either as defensive or as escorts. The same goes for the Cataphracts, they will give you a huge advantage on the battlefields but wont help you much against the cities themself, meaning again they are there to support your catapults and other units that will actually take the cities. Dont get me wrong they are both powerful and will help you in early aggression. However since you really need to focus a lot of research and production in the early game to even have a chance of getting a religion, and lets face it, their UA is far stronger than their UU's. Doing any sort of rush would cost you dearly in the late game, even in so far as to nullify it completely if you never get to found a religion.

Worth noting is that cataphracts will, as other mounteded units, be countered by the ressource less and earlier available spearman, though not countered as hard as other horsemen units they are still no where near the strength of a swordsman.

Byzantines have dromon, Quinqemere is a Carthage UU.
Cataphract have higher strength than swords & horses are more easily available than iron.

Not founding religion is just like not finding iron as Rome, or no horses as Mongols or starting on a lonely continent as Dutch/Arabia etc.

Overall cataphract is a meh UU in my opinion. None of its bonuses carry over when upgraded. Byzantines are generally defensive in nature, with their UUs u can kill ships to protect coasts & cataphracts are very defensive as they lack the mobility to attack & then run away from spears.

KillingMeSoftly · Jul 15, 2012

The Cataphract is a very strong unit, and I find myself reluctant to upgrade them to Knights due to losing all of what makes them strong. They stand up very well to Spearmen due to having extra strength from terrain, and are amazing for taking hits from cities if you are pushing for early conquering. The Cataphract is stronger than the Knight when on defense, especially if you situate them in terrain with appropriate bonuses. I usually only bother upgrading if I'll be on the offensive or don't expect any wars for a while.

It took a game vs. Germany to really show me how strong Cataphracts are. In two wars they held off MASS waves of pikemen. Part of this is because they were so well promoted, and part of this is because Cataphracts are AWESOME.

I usually ignore picking up Ironworking for a while because Cataphracts are essentially better Swordsmen, because they are faster. Granted this means I need Horses, but Horses are usually easier to come by than Iron, and teching to Horseback Riding is faster than teching to Ironworking. That saves some time.

The Dromon interests me less than the Cataphract, but it's a shame neither unit carries on any of their uniqueness to the next unit. Cataphracts lose their terrain defense/fortify, and Dromons lose their bonus against naval. While it's neat to have a ranged ship so early, my best use I found or them is either acting as archers when attacking a coastal city (obvious), or when going Honor, they make great Culture farmers by wiping out all those pirate ships and barbarians stuck on islands.

I also have a lot harder time making use of the Dromon because the game likes to give me landlocked starts as the Byzantines. Why they are not Coastal favored is a mystery to me.

jjkrause84 · Jul 15, 2012

My only beef with the cataphracts is the same beef I have with all early UUs....I find it near-impossible to use them to good effect before they are made obsolete. This, admittedly, has more to do with how I play than anything. I'm never ready for offensive war before the middle ages....too busy building stuff.

Pembroke · Jul 15, 2012

jjkrause84 said:
I find it near-impossible to use them to good effect before they are made obsolete.

Try the marathon setting. It gives you some extra time especially as the classical period stretches now longer.

"Yet Another Horse Unit" was my thought also at first but when I tried the byzantines the first time it was a pleasant surprise. You can use the fortify option for a good effect and the city attack is a bonus. Composites+Cataphracts is a powerful combo. A nicely working strategy with them was to burn and loot the city tiles collapsing the enemy economy and then picking the pieces. The cataphracts are tougher to killer than horsemen so they survive more attacks which was the key to this.

And the dromons totally rule the early seas if you concentrate them in force!

RealHuhn · Jul 15, 2012

I think both UUs are meant to be used defensively in a wide empire.

The best way to get a religion is spamming cities and shrines. Five cities with shrines are just as good as Stonehenge (which really isn't an option on Immortal+).

But early expansion will provoke wars and possibly on multiple fronts. With the Cataphract, you can get from one side of your empire to the other in less time and they can fortify on hills and in forests with a high combat strength.

The Dromon is extremely strong in coastal cities because you can stack them with a normal archer.

So overall, both UUs make a lot of sense to me!

PostConsumerWat · Jul 15, 2012

the dromons are awesome early game ranged units that are stronger than archers.

I was building those while I was waiting to tech, having built stonehenge.

Harald Bluetooth decided he wanted to play, so I took out most of his invading force with my warrior and scout and two dromons. Then I made more dromons and pursued the remains of his invasion force and took them out. Made my way down to his cities with my warrior and scout out of range of the city. Took out his 2nd city and then his capital with 3 dromons... eventually I had 5 dromons.... and my little warrior and scout.

Unfortunately I never got to build the cataphract.... but I did manage to pick up tithe, the cultural/5 followers, and the religious texts...

dromons for the early game rush... :cool:

Gucumatz · Jul 15, 2012

I agree if Cataphracts could upgrade and keep its ability to fortify/receive defensive bonuses would help the Byzantines out a lot. Perhaps give it a specific unique promotion (May receive Defensive Bonuses) or something like that to keep it on upgrade.

====

Because at the moment I agree the Byzantines feel sort of meh.

Cataphracts

ShunNakamura

Warlord

Volapyk

Warlord

ShahJahanII

Homesick Alien

ShunNakamura

Warlord

Babri

Emperor

KillingMeSoftly

Warlord

jjkrause84

King

Pembroke

Tribune

RealHuhn

Emperor

PostConsumerWat

Chieftain

Gucumatz

JS, secretly Rod Serling

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