Babylon, Korea or the Maya?

Peacemongerer · Jul 12, 2012

Well the way I counter the cost of GS going-up is I just don't beeline Theology. I've played them twice and went lower-half to get currency so I could get Petra (It works wonders, btw... no pun intended). While getting more GPs bc you got the tech sooner seems like an ideal strategy at first, you realistically will use only 5 of them to any real degree (GA, GE, GM, GP, GS) that you wouldnt get by normal means. You can get your own GG and GA from Honor/Brandenburg Gate and Naval Tradition. If you delay Theology until about 100 BC, you'll find yourself getting no more than 6 or 7 Great People, and the last 2, while not needed, will come long after you've been stacking-up Great People points from specialists and can also buy them with faith. I find this keeps the UA's advantage without making it too much of a hinderance.

When I'm the Maya, I always wait, pop a Long-Count or organic (I've gotten some naturally prior to the calendar in part bc I waited) GE for Leaning Tower of Pisa (That +25% will offset some of the rising costs). I select another GE and use him on Porcelain Tower. I plant the GS for an Academy and then get my other free GS. Two free wonders and an academy.

I think the UA is perfect for a science victory provided you use it correctly.

Peacemongerer · Jul 12, 2012

Unthinking Pain said:
Little confused how getting free scientists makes it hard to get scientists.

I mean, I get that taking a scientist from their UA ability ups the cost/time of the next normally generated scientist, but you've still got the first scientist earlier than you would have otherwise.

Well what he means is by picking crappy Great People like GG or GA, you're increasing the cost of your scientists while not increasing your science output any more than what you'd get from the one GS you pick. He gives you 8 bpt for maybe 30 turns earlier than a normally-generated GS would be bc you get him earlier, but getting Theology early means you have to cycle through great people so much that you're raising the costs of just your first normal scientist by 100 every 394 years, which is < 100 turns early game, delaying his birth.

SammyKhalifa · Jul 12, 2012

chazzycat said:
Mayans are great but I think in the long run Babylon or Korea would be slightly better. The problem with the Maya is its really hard to get scientists cuz all the free ones boost the cost too much. What they have going for them is the science in the early game, which can snowball if you play it right.

While I agree, mitigating that a little I was able to buy three or four of them (late game) with faith in the game I played as Maya.

chazzycat · Jul 12, 2012

true, good point, with their strong faith they should be able to buy a few. But babylon & Korea can do that too, the only advantage Mayans have is +1 faith from shrines, it's not that big in the late game.

Adjuvant · Jul 12, 2012

If you have a "choke point", general is amazing as a first choice. Otherwise, unless you're on pangea or archipelago, admiral is amazing.

Monthar · Jul 12, 2012

Naresh said:
Korea, 100%. Babylon might get that early free GS, which provides a huge amount of science over the course of a game, and the 50% is good if you can get to the GL quick enough (In my last 3 games I've lost it by 1-3 turns despite gearing everything towards it, even chopping forests down in an attempt to boost production)

Korea gets +2 science PER specialist and a science boost every time a science building is built in the capital. That beats the extra 1-2 scientists that Babylon pumps out.

It's not just per specialist, it's also for every great person tile improvement. So even though they get their first GS later than Babylon, that academy will be producing 2 more bpt.

Even though Rationalism is the better choice, I think settling your 3+ prophets would be a good idea. Sure you wont' get the culture and gold boost from them that completing Piety gives, but that's an extra 2 bpt each. Here's my rational behind going this route. Since you're more likely to go tall with Korea, the extra beakers per trade route won't be all that much.

Pantheon - either one of the +faith or one of the +food/growth depending on start
Founder - Interfaith Dialog (Science boost when Missionaries spread religion to cities following a different religion)
Follower 1 - Pagodas (+2 Happiness, +2 Faith +2 culture) or Religious Center (+2 happiness from temple with 5 followers)
Follower 2 - Feed the World +1 food from shrines and temples
Enhancer - Holy Order (Missionaries and Inquisitors cost 30% less faith)

Only by 1 Inquisitor and keep it at your holy city. Build or capture the Great Mosque of Djenne. If you have to capture the great Mosque of Djenne, you'll likely need a 2nd inquisitor for that city. Then spam missionaries from the MoD city every chance you get and go boost the heck out of your science with them, just be sure you don't actually convert the city you send them to. In fact since the description doesn't specify that it has to be a foreign city, allow all your other cities to be converted then you don't have the send the missionaries very far and if you accidentally convert it back to your religion, you won't get a diplo hit for it.

As for policies I'd go with Liberty and take a GS to settle. Unless you have to get a prophet out to ensure you grab that last religion before they're all gone. Next I'd take Commerce down to the +science from gold buildings and rationalism down to the bonus beakers for specialists, and trade posts. Then I'd complete Freedom before finishing Rationalism just to really boost those academies.

Also, by settling those extra prophets, including buying 1 or 2 until their cost is higher than the cost to buy a scientist, all that extra faith, which should get doubled from completing Freedom, can be used to buy more GS's sooner.

thadian · Jul 12, 2012

the "free" scientists count against your GP point, offsetting the natural development of your next GP.

Naresh · Jul 12, 2012

Monthar said:
It's not just per specialist, it's also for every great person tile improvement. So even though they get their first GS later than Babylon, that academy will be producing 2 more bpt.

Even though Rationalism is the better choice, I think settling your 3+ prophets would be a good idea. Sure you wont' get the culture and gold boost from them that completing Piety gives, but that's an extra 2 bpt each. Here's my rational behind going this route. Since you're more likely to go tall with Korea, the extra beakers per trade route won't be all that much.

Pantheon - either one of the +faith or one of the +food/growth depending on start
Founder - Interfaith Dialog (Science boost when Missionaries spread religion to cities following a different religion)
Follower 1 - Pagodas (+2 Happiness, +2 Faith +2 culture) or Religious Center (+2 happiness from temple with 5 followers)
Follower 2 - Feed the World +1 food from shrines and temples
Enhancer - Holy Order (Missionaries and Inquisitors cost 30% less faith)

Only by 1 Inquisitor and keep it at your holy city. Build or capture the Great Mosque of Djenne. If you have to capture the great Mosque of Djenne, you'll likely need a 2nd inquisitor for that city. Then spam missionaries from the MoD city every chance you get and go boost the heck out of your science with them, just be sure you don't actually convert the city you send them to. In fact since the description doesn't specify that it has to be a foreign city, allow all your other cities to be converted then you don't have the send the missionaries very far and if you accidentally convert it back to your religion, you won't get a diplo hit for it.

As for policies I'd go with Liberty and take a GS to settle. Unless you have to get a prophet out to ensure you grab that last religion before they're all gone. Next I'd take Commerce down to the +science from gold buildings and rationalism down to the bonus beakers for specialists, and trade posts. Then I'd complete Freedom before finishing Rationalism just to really boost those academies.

Also, by settling those extra prophets, including buying 1 or 2 until their cost is higher than the cost to buy a scientist, all that extra faith, which should get doubled from completing Freedom, can be used to buy more GS's sooner.

I don't know how I forgot the extra +2 from academies, I meant to add it to my post but got wrapped up in everything else.

Settling GP for later GS buying is great advice

Monthar · Jul 12, 2012

I just finished a Mayan science victory on turn 284. I only founded 6 cities. I'm sure I could have done it faster if I'd delayed Theology and signed a few more RA's even though the AI wanted ridiculous amounts of cash and resources to sign them. One RA got canceled when the Dutch took out the Celts. So I took all but one of his cities from him.

I had a couple turns delayed due to Korea DoWing me as I was finishing the last 4 parts causing me to drop from positive happiness to over -10 happiness.

Settings
Speed - Standard
Size - Standard
Level - Emperor
Map - Shuffle (ended up as Pangaea and I had a desert/mountain start)

I'll go with the same settings for a Korean game next.

PhilBowles · Jul 12, 2012

thadian said:
i wouldnt use an engineer to get a prophet, but i would use one to get a scientist.

Yes, I usually use the Maya ability to rush Porcelain Tower with the Engineer. Quite apart from anything else, since the ability doesn't trigger at all until a few turns after you reach Theology and I'll want a scientist first, the engineer comes too late to usefully or reliably rush HS - if I wanted a prophet for my second GS I'd just get a prophet for my second GP. And I'd rather rush the Great Mosque than Hagia Sophia anyway.

PhilBowles · Jul 12, 2012

Unthinking Pain said:
Little confused how getting free scientists makes it hard to get scientists.

I mean, I get that taking a scientist from their UA ability ups the cost/time of the next normally generated scientist, but you've still got the first scientist earlier than you would have otherwise.

Which means, among other things, you tech to specialist buildings first, you start farming GS points first (not least because you also rushed the PT with that free GE, right?), and so ... you get more GS points to compensate for the Maya UA. It's probably not enough to 'break even', but it's a more complex calculation. I love Korea, but I think the Maya are a very inventive take on a science civ - the other two are all about getting as many beakers as possible mid-game and later, and both come into their own at about the same time (since generating GS points requires exactly the same specialists and specialist buildings for both civs - and for that reason both benefit from playing tall, Babylon just gets a slight speed edge from their one-off early GS).

The Maya are more about improving your game position rather than raw science production - you get crucial techs first, so unlock the ones you need for crucial Wonders first, you get an Engineer to speed said wonders along, you get extra faith to give you first pick of complementary religious bonuses (and flexibility to take an early second prophet if needed). Even the UU plays into that by freeing you from taking an early tech everyone else needs to delay their tech progression to take. It's much more subtle and so much harder to quantify. Balance-wise, the Maya ought to be a 'lower tier' science civ than the other two because, while it's clearly their primary focus, they're more versatile than either Babylon or even Korea (who are pretty versatile with their ability to gain science regardless of which type of specialist or improvement you have) in the victories they can shoot for and (past the Theology beeline) in the strategies they can employ to get there.

Monthar · Jul 15, 2012

After watching the first video in MadDjinn's latest series, I decided to go with a regular Pangaea map for Korea at Diety. I just finished a science victory on turn 269. I'm sure I could have finished it a lot faster if I'd signed more RAs and if I'd had more aluminum. I had to build a recycling center just to get 1 aluminum after Arabia took the one CS ally I had that was providing me some, after I'd built the hydro plant in the capital.

While I was building the first 4 parts in the capital and waiting to unlock the last two, Arabia decided to DoW for my first war. I didn't have much military, but I was able to fend off his weak attacks and those of this CS allies on my other border for the rest of the game.

The only wonders I built were Leaning Tower of Pisa, Porcelain Tower (with GE from LToP) and Hubble.

This was probably my fastest victory at deity.

rsadiwala95 · Jul 15, 2012

Peacemongerer said:
Best scientifc civ in G&K? I used to think Babylon in vanilla, then I played as Korea in G&K and thought they were the best, especially after the GS changes. Now I'm playing as the Maya and loving the Pyramids. I can't decide. Anybody else got an opinion?

If playing for :c5science:

Then Go for Korea as a tall semi wide empire....Or Maya as a Wideee Empire0....

An Suggestion, while playing as Maya with ICS/REX, Go for +2 :c5science:

per

as ur religious belief...
Choose inter-faith Dialogue when playing as Korea....

Babylon i Dont Know, Since I Dont Have The DLC.

PhilBowles · Jul 15, 2012

rsadiwala95 said:
An Suggestion, while playing as Maya with ICS/REX, Go for +2 per as ur religious belief...
Choose inter-faith Dialogue when playing as Korea....

Babylon i Dont Know, Since I Dont Have The DLC.

They aren't mutually exclusive - Messenger of the Gods is a Pantheon, Interfaith Dialogue a Founder belief. Even a tall Korean empire will have three or four cities fairly early, which gives the same science bonus as an academy when all are connected by trade routes. Interfaith Dialogue is valuable whichever you go for - since you'll usually be using it on other players' cities rather than your own (since it only works if the other religion is the dominant religion in a city), it's no better if your empire is tall than if your empire is wide.

dexters · Jul 15, 2012

alpaca said:
Interestingly, the Long Count will mean the Maya get fewer GS than other civs because their "free" GP makes their production of GS slower.

As for Babylon vs Korea, I can't really make a strong case either way (and in fact haven't played with Babs in G&K yet). I should note that settling your GS increases the amount of research you make from research agreements quite significantly for a smaller empire. On the other hand, the kinda free bulbs for Korea are quite strong and their base output is better.

You know what, with the new GS growth nerf, it would be fair to give as a UA bonus the ability to avoid this penalty.

Babylon, Korea or the Maya?

Peacemongerer

Prince

Peacemongerer

Prince

SammyKhalifa

Deity

chazzycat

Deity

Adjuvant

Emperor

Monthar

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thadian

Kami of Awakened Dreamers

Naresh

Warlord

Monthar

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PhilBowles

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PhilBowles

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Monthar

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rsadiwala95

Chieftain

PhilBowles

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dexters

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