El-J 03 ~ Going Rogue, AoI Style

Merry Christmas! I'm back!

Great playing Adler17 and ChaosArbiter.

So it looks like Whomp is up followed by:

9.) Zeletdude
10.) Maimonides
1.) Prime Minister El Justo

Whomp said he can play today. Zeletdude said he can play on the 27th. I have a very busy time @ work from the 28th to the 31st (in between Christmas & New Year's, year-end financials, etc.). I'll play after Zeletdude on the 27th if possible. If not, I'll do what I can...

I've got it and will play now. Perfect day for it!

I'm having trouble loading your .rar file ChaosArbiter. Can you put it in .sav format?

Try this one Whomp:

Thank you sir. I may be back since we seem to be a bit militarily challenged.

We are going to be militarily weak for now. This is the chance I think we have to take, especially on such a hard setting. We need to build up the infrastructure in a major way first. This will help us with the tougher science curve in the second era and also allow us to build a fleet of the latest and greatest instead of a few older type ships. The one position we can't afford a naval war with right now is the Russians. That will change quickly once we get to the "build the fleet up stage". Anyone else, we will have local superiority long enough to build enough small stuff to send them packing longer term.

As far as trying to "beef up" Korea, we were going to get run over with a war with most European powers, including Russia from the start of the game. That hasn't change and won't change for awhile until we get to the point we can start churning out infantry along with some artillery. That is coming, but not quite yet. If we got attacked, we would probably have to try to pull a Pusan and withdraw everything back and hope we can hold at least 1 city with the help o f the fleet, but even then I don't know that it is possible in the face of an all out attack. Remember that every one of those civs got 9 free units to start and also are building things at 40% normal cost because of the level.

Fun time will be coming, but in the mean time, we have work to do yet on the infrastructure and getting ahead on the science angle of things.

Pre-turn: Start by doing some adjusting around the empire. This is being posted so some of you can see some of the adjustments that can be made to improve empire management. I'm not suggesting that everyone has to do it this way but my objective is to prepare the empire as fast we can so we're ready for the eventual conflict that will undoubtedly develop.

We have 7485g in the bank and are turning 1325 gpt at the start of the turn. Entertainers are a big no-no. If a city can't survive without entertainment then their population should starve and at the most should have one or two. Everyone needs to work...

Looking at the cities core first...

Tokyo is on Electron Wonder due in 3. Hires about a dozen engineers, give a shield tile to Osaka and take back a water tile and we get electron in 2. This will work very well since we'll finish both wonders in two turns and get 4 techs.
Everyone else in Tokyo becomes a taxman.
Kagoshima has Transocean Radio Signal Wonder due in 4. Hire enough engineers to get the Wonder in 2 with a loss of 1 food.
Osaka has a research lab due in 4. Short rushes a naval base for 240g and some engineers get the research lab in 1. About a half dozen taxmen are hired.
Akita has a mfg. plant due in 19 turns. Give up some tiles to Sendai and don't impact growth down to 5, short rush a uni for 920g in Akita and hire 9 taxmen to get it in 2.
Sendai has a mfg. plant due in 19. Get it to 3 after rushing a uni and hiring 8 engineers and the rest are taxmen.
Pusan has a theater in 2. Rush it for 160g and switch to library and get it in 1. I don't like switching the prior players moves but libraries are science mulitplier buildings with some culture/happiness and theaters only produce culture/happiness.
Seoul has a mfg. plant due in 6. Short rush a uni for 240g and get it to 2 turns with a dozen or so engineers.
Sapporo has a stock exchange being built and is due in 5 but really needs a hospital since its growth is stifled. Stock exchanges should really be secondary builds since tax output will be less necessary than science output. Rush a sewer system and get the hospital in 1.
Hamhung public library in 7. Short rush a Matsushima class for 288g and get the lib in 1.
Taipei colonial conscript worker in 2. Rush a torpedo boat for 160 and he's due next.
Niigata infantry in 11. Probably best that we produce more research here. Hurry a sports stadium for 1869g and change to research lab.
Kuril Island financial institution in 14. Hurry naval base for 760g and with a little starvation get the university next turn.
Ryukyu Island uni in 39. It can't be rushed since rushing works best when you have shields in the box. Hire engineers though and get the uni down to 12. The city needs one entertainer to keep the population happy.

Turns out we only needed one scientist to finish Military Tradition.

Just in case, we have the capability to trade gpt for gold if we need to rush more. This will also help us to keep some of the big boys off our back. See the Ottomans are building Aspirin Wonder meaning they have 20th Century Medicine.

Hit cap locks on my p.c. to speed things up and hit enter...

IT
Chile comes requesting a loan of 100g. Tell them to buzz off and they comply.

Germans declare war on the British and the Austro Hungarian Empire follows suit.

Week 41, 1897
Sapporo hospital --> research lab
Osaka research lab --> Wright Flyer
Hamhung library --> mfg. plant
Taipei colonial con. worker --> library
Niigata research lab --> mfg. plant
Kuril Islands university --> Naval base
Pusan library --> mfg. plant

Vacuum tube wonder is available.
Rush naval base in Ryuku Islands and switch back to uni due in 1.
Arrange the cities towards engineers and tax men. Turn off research to Ag. refining since we'll get four free techs next turn (ag refining, colonial admin., maxim guns and pre-dreadnoughts).
Check the diplomacy screen and mapstat and get some small out of the way countries to give us ROP's and cash.
2452g and 1129 gpt.

IT
Ottomans declare on Russians. Interesting...

Akita mfg. plant --> uni
Tokyo finishes this and we take Ag. Refining and Colonial Admin II.



Set research to Maxim Guns.
Tokyo starts on Military Academy.
Kago finishes this and we take Maxim Guns and Pre-Dreadnoughts III.



Start research on field guns.
Kago begins on mfg. plant
Seoul mfg. plant --> uni
Ryuku Island uni --> transport
French try planting a spy.
Ottomans finish the Aspirin Wonder in Angora.

Week 45, 1897
Short rush a uni in Hamhung for 1048g and back to mfg. plant in 1.
Taipei short rushs a sewer system for 184g to get the lib in 1.
Niigata and Pusan rush a stadium for 1112g to get mfg. plant in 2 apiece.
Hire scientists and get field guns in 4.
We're down to 125g and 944gpt.

IT
Brits make peace with Hispaniola.
Sendai mfg. plant --> naval base
Tokyo gets this...



Tokyo starts 2 turn Infantry
Hamhung mfg plant --> University
Taipei --> Library --> Transport

Week 49, 1897
Rush a stadium for 896g in Kago and get mfg plant next.

IT
Kago mfg. plant --> Vacuum Tube wonder
Taipei steam transport --> colonial con. worker
Niigata mfg. plant --> naval base
Pusan mfg. plant --> uni
Ryuku Island transport --> transport

Week 1, 1898
Rush a stadium in Hamsung and get uni next.

IT
Sapporro research lab --> mfg. plant
Akita uni --> infantry (placeholder for arty?)
Tokyo infantry --> infantry
Hamhung uni --> infantry (placeholder for arty?)
Seoul uni --> infantry (placeholder for arty?)

Week 5, 1898
Land our first vet unit on the Korean pennisula.
Secure 3 more raw materials in Osaka.
Rush a stadium in Pusan to get uni in 2.
Rush a stadium in Niigata and get the naval base next turn.
Rush a torpedo boat in Taipei to get the worker next.

Summary
The Wright Wonder will finish just after our research is done on field guns.

I would take Submarines and Destroyers II as our free techs since they're reasonably expensive to tech and will come in handy.

What should we research after the two free ones?

The Vacuum Tube will finish in four turns after the IT so whatever we research then we should try to either get the tech in four turns (by turning up research if needed) or make sure to slow down the Vacuum Tube build in Kago so that it coincides with research.

Watch the engineers since they only make buildings and can't be used for units.

We're cranking out 2 turn vet infantry in Tokyo and should be able to produce some arty pieces and warships to get us much closer to our destiny. I think we're close to laying the hammer on someone.

Whomp said:

Sapporo has a stock exchange being built and is due in 5 but really needs a hospital since its growth is stifled. Stock exchanges should really be secondary builds since tax output will be less necessary than science output. Rush a sewer system and get the hospital in 1.

Click to expand...

Not sure on the analysis of this from the standpoint that we should be running the slider in the 20-30% range to keep our every 4 turn advancement pace. That means a given pop center would have 70-80% of the available trade markers coming in as cash. To me, it would seem that improvements upping cash output would be more effective in such a situation. They are not as effective if you are having to run 80-90% science, but that isn't the case. Stock exchanges are a good deal given their shield costs and the amount of income generated by most Japanese cities because of water trade.

Nice series of turns and looks like things are coming along nicely.

*Edit*

Going Subs 1 and Destroyers 2 is a good call on science. That end of the tree is very expensive to research, so by taking them as our free ones, it will allow us to accumuate more cash. Doesn't do much for us from making more units available, although we pick up a crappy destroyer. (Better off hammering out Ikazuchi class and then upgrading them to Asakaze class, which become available at the start of the next era).

As far as the artillery production scheme goes, I highly recommend we hold on standard field guns and produce the crap out of the mountain guns. (Should be the next development we go for after snagging destroyers 2). The big reasons for this is the mountain gun we get is the same as the horse artillery battery we get on the field gun line except the mountain gun is cheaper and moves faster. Upgrades for each are available, BUT, the upgraded field gun and upgraded mountain gun again are the same performance wise and while they would be the same price, the mountain gun still has the extra movement point available. The field gun gets one more upgrade in the third era, but the only increase is in ROF. The crappy 12 bombard is still there. In addition, we are going to get the upgraded mountain guns fairly early in the next era while it would be awhile for the field guns. Conclusion: build the mountain guns. This also fits in from the standpoint of view that some of our less productive cities are still able to turn these out in 1 turn while they may not be able to do that for the field guns.

After mountain guns, I recommend doing Howitzers and then Chemical Engineering and then getting the two improvements built ASAP. The production bump is big as is the 50% science increase each provides.

Also noted on the Ottomans snagging Aspirin. Pity.

Great play, Whomp! I think I learned allot about playing at higher difficulty levels from reading your log.

Question: why Torpedo Boats? Do we have an option with a higher bombard? If so, it seems that the higher bombard unit would be worth the extra shields/gold to produce than the cheaper Torpedo Boats.

Klyden, your strategy notes look sound & very wise.

Question: why worry about land arty right now? Seems that we need a strong navy 1st for multiple roles including shore bombardment. Looks like Mukden is our only possible target that would require land arty right now, but Vladisvostok & Port Arthur are much more important & are accessible to naval bombardment.

Just curious, guys. I'm not used to playing at this level.

Zeletdude, you're up!

EDIT: We need to park a ship on the tile immediately south of Pusan ASAP if we haven't already. If an AI does it before we do, our ships in the Sea of Japan will have to sail north all the way around our home islands to head south & vice versa.

He didn't produce TBs. He changed from Colonial Conscript Worker to TB, rushed the TB and switched back to CCW and got it in 1 turn. It costs less to build a TB than a worker group so the rushing cost is less with TB than CCW. Or that's how I understood it.

And the land arty is very important as it's often cheaper to produce than ships and the ships can't access every city on map.

Good work Whomp!

Adler

@Maimonides: I believe that Arexander nailed it in this case. In other instances, you can make the case for building a cheaper, inferior unit IF it upgrades later on. The things you have to look at are your finances (we can afford to do upgrades like these, so no big deal) and also when the upgrade comes along. The small ship lines are one of the few things that will upgrade from one class to the next in AoI. The trick is destroyers 3 does not upgrade destroyers 2 for instance. They usually skip, so for case in point in my post, I was suggesting that if we build destroyers, to build the ones that became available with destroyer 1. They are not as good as the destroyers with destroyer 2, but are cheaper and will upgrade sooner (with destroyers 3 at the start of the next era). This will give us a surge in naval power and destroyers 3 will produce a better ship than destroyer 2.

Hopefully this all makes sense.

Klyden--I think you're correct. We're not running heavy on the science slider so the stock exchanges will be a valuable multiplier build for cash creation.

Maimonides--Short rushing is a technique where instead of rushing the whole build you look for something that will get it close but still finish in one or two turns. IE in Taipei I let the first turn put shields in the box (rushing on the first turn is a no no since it costs 8g per shield versus 4g per shield once shields are in the box). The next turn by rushing the torpedo boat gave me enough shields to finish the worker when I switched the build back to the worker. It's a good way to preserve cash for other rush attempts.

On research we should have six techs over the next four turns. Field Guns, Subs and Destroyer II this turn. In the four turns after that I would think mountain guns should be researched. What should we get as our two free techs? Pound through the expensive techs or get optional techs that might help the empire?

One more thing...when we attack the Russians my suggestion is bombarding their warships first. The ships won't heal without being in a harbor so we should try red lining them or knocking them down to 2 hit points before we try sinking them. Once those ships are out of the way we can proceed to naval assaults on the cities we want to take.

One thing I learned when playing the scenario early is to avoid doing the last couple of advancements that give you infrastructure improvements/wonders as the last thing to be researched in a given era. That means your production is tied up on "older stuff" in a given era rather than being really ready to roll in the new era. We have several scientific wonders that will need to be built early in the next era and they are really more expensive than the batch from the first era. In addition, we will want Industrial 2 soon as well and that will also mean rebuilding both the Worlds Fair and Olympic games as the first ones will go away.

Bottom line is try to have those developments cleaned out, so we are good to go, even if it means saving a more expensive development or two for last.

I would say Whomps list is good and my two picks would be the chem plant and the artillery tactics. This gives us 3 left in the era and those twelve turns will be busy ones.

The big question is where does the chemical plant go? My choice would be either Kagoshima or Tokyo. I don't know what their current production is right now in terms of shields to give a better opinion although Tokyo is at least 180 shields. Be good to get Kagoshima to 200 shields a turn (battleship a turn), but then it would be good to get a lot of things.

Getting industrial 2 will help our production issues quite a bit in many cities as the naval shipyard improvement (+1 shield per water hex) will become available.

I'm sorry I've been very busy lately. I'm afraid I'll have to quite .
Sorry I really didn't contribute =(

Arexander, Klyden, Whomp, I think I get it. Thanks. This is like taking C3C 101 in college.

ZeletDude said:

I'm sorry I've been very busy lately. I'm afraid I'll have to quite .
Sorry I really didn't contribute =(

Click to expand...

Assuming you mean "quit"...bummer.

I have a long, hard day @ work Monday, but I'll try to play Monday night. *gulp*

great work all! and happy holidays to everyone had a busy and festive one myself.

i agree w/ all the sentiments so far. and i'm psyched that Whomper got to see some of those kewl wonder splashes

re the science vs gold buildup -- i guess i'd say it's one or the other. by this i mean that i wholly agree on the science build-up and the "all in" mentality and the uni, research lab builds etc. however, otoh, i also fully agree w/ the stock exchange and fin inst build ups. i usually go coin first when i play (as opposed to "all in" on the science imp's). of course, this is just one player's m-o and in reality, i think, it really just boils down to preference (ie having a great deal more coin on hand in the mid and later parts of era1 OR being able to manipulate the science output and set citizens to coin and civ eng's). anyhow, i like the direction we're heading in. i mean, we've got the sceince rolling now and after that city infrastructure is in place, we can start on the coin stuff once that's accomplished (and it won't take quite as long as the science build up i think), we will be a well-oiled machine and really ready to roll

re science direction -- either way is fine by me - i like getting the more expensive ones although i would also like the chem eng. Kagoshima as the Chem Weapons I location, rather than Tokyo, makes sense to me too. not sure if we get any subs w/ Subs I (?) would have to check the list. i know i added in an early generation for the Japanese for v4.0. Arty Doctrine is a good one in preparation for a war since it allows for the Arty School sm wonder. it raises our chance for a battle-created leader unit.

re the arty techs and their application -- i usually go for the highest bombardment rating. so in this case, it would be Howitzers I. of course, the mtn guns and field guns have their usefullness as well, especially if their are "expeditions" planned where we have to move units across enemy tiles w/ little or no road nets for us to use. my thinking on the Howitzer units is to use them as "siege" weapons. they would be almost imperative if we did not have NGFS. i'll admit that there are no immediate "inland" campaigns planned for now but i always like to have a high (or the highest) bombard arty piece ready to roll w/ any expeditionary force. this doesn't discount the usefullness of the FGs and Mtn Guns though.

i like the idea of fortifying the Korean peninsula inthe midst of the science build up. i hope we can supplement it further when we get to the coin infrastructure build up. of course, we're not doing a full press on unit builds yet. but to ships over some vet units from Tokyo every few turns (4 or 6 at least?) will be helpful. getting some defensive arty over there would help some too imo. howitzers would look nice here

the Chem Weapons I sm wonder (available w/ Chem Eng tech) will spawn Chlorine Gas shells every few turns

At Bat:9.) Maimonides

On Deck
10.) Zeletdude -- retired : searching for replacement
1.) Prime Minister El Justo

The Japanese get the German Mountain Guns (and upgrades), right? Them's good guns.

I don't think I'll be able to play long term, but I can "pinch hit" as you put it El J.

5 turns each like last time?