Crusader Kings 2

Winner · Nov 14, 2011

Kyriakos said:
I wonder where you find the time to play such games. When i played EuIII it took hours and hours and hours...

I don't play games much these days, no time for that. Paradox games especially are addictive when you start with them, which is the reason why until the game I posted screenshots from I hadn't played EU3 for... I don't know, a year?

SouthernKing · Nov 14, 2011

Kyriakos said:
I wonder where you find the time to play such games. When i played EuIII it took hours and hours and hours...

Evenings, holidays, and weekends as well. Having a relatively fast comp, even if its 2 years old, does help by making games run smoother.

Dachs · Nov 15, 2011

I wasn't a fan of the original game on the grounds that it played extremely fast and loose with history; the sequel has been explicitly stated to be more of the same. Basically, the whole of Europe gets to operate on something approaching French-style feudalism, something which is barely excusable for, say, Sweden or the Rus' and absolutely disgraceful for the Greek East.

NBAfan · Nov 15, 2011

Yeah, CK is not really a historical game.

B4tman · Nov 15, 2011

It's harder to represent history in CK because it's based on dinasties, than a game like EU

salty mud · Nov 15, 2011

Do people play Paradox games for the history? Really? Or for that matter, any game? The best place for a history lesson is a book.

Luckymoose · Nov 15, 2011

salty mud said:
Do people play Paradox games for the history? Really? Or for that matter, any game? The best place for a history lesson is a book.

You play them to tinker with history.

Dachs · Nov 15, 2011

salty mud said:
Do people play Paradox games for the history? Really? Or for that matter, any game? The best place for a history lesson is a book.

I'm obviously not going to play a Paradox game to learn history. But if they're going to make some sort of effort to ensure a historical setting and plausibility - something that they ostensibly have a commitment to doing - they could at least try and avoid some of the most blatant errors they've committed. Hell, they permit changes to archaic crap like succession laws - how hard could it have possibly been to ensure that not everything ended up a freaking appanage?

What is perhaps most annoying about this is that this amounts to a claim that Christian Europe all had the exact same social and political system, and the Muslim world had a different (but still internally unified) one.

W|M · Nov 16, 2011

They probably oversimplified it so the game would run faster, and the developers wouldn't need to take the time to look up what individual political systems were like, and implement them into the game.

Dachs · Nov 16, 2011

west india man said:
They probably oversimplified it so the game would run faster,

Nope.

west india man said:
and the developers wouldn't need to take the time to look up what individual political systems were like, and implement them into the game.

Gold star. They did this because they couldn't be assed to do the research.

salty mud · Nov 17, 2011

To do a unique political system for every country would take a huge amount of effort; effort not really justified from the relatively small amounts of profit Paradox games make due to their small userbase.

Luckymoose · Nov 17, 2011

salty mud said:
To do a unique political system for every country would take a huge amount of effort; effort not really justified from the relatively small amounts of profit Paradox games make due to their small userbase.

They have been selling like hot cakes recently, this excuse is no longer based in fact.

salty mud · Nov 17, 2011

Really? Because not one of my friends owns a Paradox game (I have a lot of gamer friends) and as far as I know none of their friends own Paradox games either. Paradox themselves have said that in future they won't make games on discs, it's more sensical for them to stick to downloads because of how few people buy their games.

Kyriakos · Nov 17, 2011

Hm, didn't the EU3 games sell reasonably well?

Pangur Bán · Nov 17, 2011

Dachs said:
I wasn't a fan of the original game on the grounds that it played extremely fast and loose with history; the sequel has been explicitly stated to be more of the same. Basically, the whole of Europe gets to operate on something approaching French-style feudalism, something which is barely excusable for, say, Sweden or the Rus' and absolutely disgraceful for the Greek East.

The game is most close to 14th century German "feudalism", and for a game stretching across Europe and starting 1066, that is not ideal.

It is certainly a problem for CK. I guess all I would say is that it is a game that has to appeal to large market in order to be commercially viable. The 3-tiers French feudalism thing means that the game is simple enough to play for that market. The game may be full of historic nonsense, but few players will care.

And incidetally, Paradox are leagues ahead of "fireaxis" or whoever at Take-Two does research for Civ. On a basis of comparison in a world where historical accuracy is held in contempt by providers of our entertainment, Paradox games are probably the most historically accurate games around.

Dachs · Nov 17, 2011

Pangur Bán;11053339 said:
The game is most close to 14th century German "feudalism", and for a game stretching across Europe and starting 1066, that is not ideal.

It is certainly a problem for CK. I guess all I would say is that it is a game that has to appeal to large market in order to be commercially viable. The 3-tiers French feudalism thing means that the game is simple enough to play for that market. The game may be full of historic nonsense, but few players will care.

I'm not really sure that it is simpler, or rather, that Paradox did it that way to keep things simple for the player. And it's not as though it's an advertising point: Crusader Kings II: Play in Medieval Europe With Some Vague Stereotypical Feudal-Like Sociopolitical System hasn't exactly been emblazoned across the packaging.

But thanks for actually acknowledging that this is a legitimate complaint.

Pangur Ban said:
And incidetally, Paradox are leagues ahead of "fireaxis" or whoever at Take-Two does research for Civ. On a basis of comparison in a world where historical accuracy is held in contempt by providers of our entertainment, Paradox games are probably the most historically accurate games around.

Yeah, sure. And I play some Paradox games, like Darkest Hour. But I'd rather play something that doesn't care about being accurate than something that's some arbitrary mishmash of half-history half-fantasy.

Pangur Bán · Nov 17, 2011

Dachs said:
I'm not really sure that it is simpler, or rather, that Paradox did it that way to keep things simple for the player. And it's not as though it's an advertising point: Crusader Kings II: Play in Medieval Europe With Some Vague Stereotypical Feudal-Like Sociopolitical System hasn't exactly been emblazoned across the packaging.

Well, from the point of view of the average gamer, the rules have to be transparent. If you know the history, then that's fine. But most players won't, and will be alienated from the game if the rules are too complex or change too much from polity to polity.

This is not the whole story, as you say. Researching, coding and testing the level of detail to satisfy guys like yourself is probably not regarded as priority #1 either. These games appeal to a market that's enthusiastic about history, respecting surface adherence to historical fact, but ignorant enough to not care about the issues raised here (the universal HRE social structure, the lobsided map, inaccurate details, etc).

Hammurabi II · Nov 17, 2011

Like most other Paradox games, I'm sure CK2 will be great.....after a year of patches and maybe an expansion or 2. :yup:

Sadly, I've learned my lesson with EUIII, HoI3, VictoriaII, etc. :deadhorse:

fake edit - why is that guy hitting the horse there? :cringe:

NBAfan · Nov 17, 2011

Hammurabi II said:
Like most other Paradox games, I'm sure CK2 will be great.....after a year of patches and maybe an expansion or 2. Sadly, I've learned my lesson with EUIII, HoI3, VictoriaII, etc.

fake edit - why is that guy hitting the horse there?

CKII will be in very good shape on release. It's in release state already, but won't come out until Jan.

Antilogic · Nov 18, 2011

NBAfan said:
CKII will be in very good shape on release. It's in release state already, but won't come out until Jan.

Paradox said that Victoria II was in good release shape early, and I remember seeing beta testers post about how polished it was leading up to the release.

I'll wait and see.

Crusader Kings 2

Diverse in Unity

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Hero of the Soviet Union

boss

Warlord

Deity

The World is Mine

Hero of the Soviet Union

Immortal

Hero of the Soviet Union

Deity

The World is Mine

Deity

Creator

Deconstructed

Hero of the Soviet Union

Deconstructed

Warlord

boss

--

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