C2C - Building Review Thread

You could get diminishing returns by changing the food storage buildings to a flat amount + a smaller than current percentage.

That way the early ones will be (nearly) just as useful to lower pop cities, but less so at higher pop/higher tech.

As for the food storage "problem": I played an OCC up to the TH era and in my city was every wonder and building that stores food after grow. Even then only 70-80% of food was stored. So there is no "more than 100% stored" problem


- Center for Disease Control should get - 50 Disease, and -10 Disease in every city.

- Coal Fired Dynamo and the like should NOT require Power Lines or Electricity. The real benefit of those is that they come much earlier. If you'd be consequent, than the Clockpunk early fighter must require Flight.

- Why does Seedvault obsolete? You still need seeds to plant plants, even if you do astroagriculture (or whatever it was called).

- Why is it possible to build an Elephant Herd before Elephant Domestication? Or a Llama Herd before Cow Herd?

- Sealmaker requires Carving, but also Trade. Carving is needed for Trade, meaning this is a redundant prereq.

- Totem Pole requires Wood Working, but also Tribal (Civic). Wood Working is a prereq for Tribal (Tech). So Wood Working is redundant.

- Furniture Factory needs Carpentry as prereq -> This is obviously redundant!

- Jade Gatherer and Amber Gatherer requires Bead Making, but Amber and Jade show up at Barter. Bead Making is a prereq for Barter, meaning it is redundant.

- Bonfire requires Stick Gatherer or Lumbercamp. But Firemaking, which enables Bonfire, obsoletes Stick Gatherer.

- Funeral Pyre comes at Firemaking, but needs a Graveyard (comes at Masonary) -> Firemaking is redundant.

- Cockfighting Ring comes at Games, but also requires Poultry Domestication (Games Redundant)

- Carpentry unlocks Cooper which also requires Fermentation -> Carpentry is redundant.

- Carpentry unlocks Housing Hogans, but those need also Pottery -> Carpentry is redundant.

Faustmouse said:

- Why is it possible to build an Elephant Herd before Elephant Domestication? Or a Llama Herd before Cow Herd?

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The difference between domesticated and non-domesticated or semi-domesticated. Herds can be used before you domesticate the animal. You just follow it around, usually in just one valley following them up the hills in summer and back down to the river in winter. In game terms it all depends if there is a separate domestication building (trainer). If there is then the herd is available earlier.

Faustmouse said:

As for the food storage "problem": I played an OCC up to the TH era and in my city was every wonder and building that stores food after grow. Even then only 70-80% of food was stored. So there is no "more than 100% stored" problem

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I don't think any buildings have changed that affect storage, so the problem should still exist. It wouldn't show up as 100% stored, though, since it would be 100% of the previous population's requirement for growth, not the current population's requirement for growth.

Here I think I should put it, but, I'm making a spreadsheet at TB's request with all buildings, wonders, etc, and giving them simple categories. If anyone wants to see: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsZ97EvYjrFzdFdWQnBJUDNSMmR1bzhURlhyd29PLXc&usp=sharing

Just Forgot, here are the current categories:

Administrative- Built by the Government or used often by the government
Agriculture, Hunting and Processing: Anything to do with food
Commercial: Built by private businesses with no help from the government
The other are what they say:
Education
Electricity
Garbadge
Health Care
Law Enformcement
Military
Mining and Minaral Prosessing
Public Works
Religious
Special
Sports and Entertainment
Transportation
Water and Sewage

Took a look at the doc. Great job!

May I request we divide the Agriculture, Hunting and Food Processing into those respective categories as well? You have the Violet farm as Cultivation - would probably be just as easy to include it in Agriculture if we have an Agriculture category of its own. Gathering buildings would be Agriculture as well to clear any anticipated confusion on that.

I see you have Sports and Entertainment... hmm... Though it may seem trivial to do so, I'd like those two divided up too.

In Commercial, you have the Tread Crane. Perhaps we should have a 'Construction' category that would encapsulate all the buildings that aid in generation of structures.

Also in Commercial you have Tourism buildings... makes sense. I wonder, though, if we shouldn't let Tourism be its own category.

We might want to consider Manufacturing as being distinct from Commercial and Mining. Thus once the minerals and materials are 'processed', anything that generates goods with them would be Manufacturing. And then only those buildings that are 'retailers ONLY' (even though the distinction is not always clear as in an olde tyme weapons forge or a cobbler did both at once) would be Commercial alone. Thus you'd have a Market as a Commercial, but a Hat Maker as a Manufacturing.

I realized this was going to be interesting trying to categorize all these buildings into one single special category so I appreciate your patience with me on this. The effort you've put into this is really appreciated already!

Ok, will get done in the A.M

@Thunderbrd

I am still not on board with the whole building groups idea. I am not convinced they should be done that way.

Sorry for not having a solution, but its not like I have not been trying to think of one.

I am still not on board with the whole building groups idea.

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I like this idea but it should be used to something else than autobuild ex for traits

scientific
- builds educational buildings 10% faster

2 prehistoric era buildings that seem off

Carrion: +1
obsolete cooking

By the time unhealthiness goes away, you most likely already have cooking. So this building is pretty much worthless.

Fire Dance:
10 Fire and 3 pollution for a happiness and small culture bonus. The penalties dont make sense here, because you've already built the fire. And the rewards dont even come close to overcoming the drawbacks.

Im not a fan in general of prehistoric era pollution because it is too long before you can do anything about it, but the pollution numbers are too high anyway. A fire pit is going to have a negligible impact on pollution. Big bonfires I could see maybe a +1 pollution.

You can only really appreciate Hydro's work after you build a google doc of his stuff. There is just so much!

Hydromancerx said:

@Thunderbrd

I am still not on board with the whole building groups idea. I am not convinced they should be done that way.

Sorry for not having a solution, but its not like I have not been trying to think of one.

Click to expand...

This really isn't for the public/private thing nor for any other type of auto-building mechanism but more for general utility. The main thing that comes to mind is exactly what Nimek mentions. I needed this so we could cut down on the enormous display lists in Traits so I can generalize the modifiers to build various buildings by category. That was the main thing but I figure there's other mechanisms that could benefit down the road.

What's more important at this juncture is to determine how to best define these building groups.

I figure we can use the 'SpecialBuilding' class to setup these categories and define the buildings by uses of those tags. This means some buildings already have definition and those definitions can't be easily changed but that's fine so long as we then assign a category grouping to specialbuilding definitions themselves, much like I'm currently working on for Combat Classes as well.

Current definitions in use are Temples, Cathedrals, Shrines, Monasteries and some other offshoot definitions along those lines. These would fall under an overall generic 'grouping' of Religious.

So right now we're looking at dividing the buildings into general categories along the 'Religious' lines, and maybe for most of those categories that will be plenty sufficient for our needs. I mean, so far we haven't had to further assign SpecialBuilding definitions at all and have gotten by fine. But the utility of defining these things has a few places where it can be applied in the mod, and for my purposes is mostly trait interaction issues.

Nimek said:

I like this idea but it should be used to something else than autobuild ex for traits

scientific
- builds educational buildings 10% faster

Click to expand...

teakbois said:

Carrion: +1
obsolete cooking

By the time unhealthiness goes away, you most likely already have cooking. So this building is pretty much worthless.

Click to expand...

This one is more of a tutorial buildings to tech new players that not all buildings are worth building.

SargontheGreat2 said:

You can only really appreciate Hydro's work after you build a google doc of his stuff. There is just so much!

Click to expand...

Thanks. I still am not as productive as I would like to be.

Also have you considered having an "Industrial" group category for Factories, Forges, Smelters, Chemical Plants, etc. ?

I am hoping to have a prototype modmod with FreeAtTech set for buildings for new cities in the next day or so. This wont replace the Python on the Colonist or Pioneer as they give free buildings that normally would require a size 6 or above city. I am looking at all buildings that have a population 1 or less requirement. I still have not done the Myth buildings but I am working on replacing them at the moment anyway.

Updated spreedsheat, with TBs suggestions

Your spreadsheet is looking great! Much appreciated! How far are you into the buildings at this point? Fractionwise...

About 1/4, or about 500 buildings

Ok, well, you're doing an awesome job there. Thanks!

Can you please make it possible to build a "Jewelry" Store without Gems. Despite the name, jewellery really means "bling", and so can be made with just metal, eg. chains, lockets, rings, bracers, earrings, etc.

Failing that (ie. if you don't agree), can you include Shell(fish)/Pearls as options that allow for building the Gemcutter (Pearls aren't cut but the shells they come from can be). Or have Pearls as an option that bypasses the Gemcutter altogether.

Can someone point me at the thread that described fixes to some of V's wonders now that tags are available? I forgot to keep a link so I could do some work on it when I needed a break.