Technological/Education Property

What will the education property bring to the game ? I'm tempted to think that it will just become a second number you'll make go up as you grow science production up...

Athmos said:

What will the education property bring to the game ? I'm tempted to think that it will just become a second number you'll make go up as you grow science production up...

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Yes it will act as a middle man when it comes to , but like I already said the auto-build buildings will help reduce crime, flammability and disease too. In addition to being a middle man it will help reduce the over abundance of in the mod and help slow things back down without having to adjust the game speed settings again.

And there are always applications we have not thought of yet. I mean already we have turned a good chunk of the buildings into Education buildings, thus making a brand new category of buildings.

Athmos said:

What will the education property bring to the game ? I'm tempted to think that it will just become a second number you'll make go up as you grow science production up...

Click to expand...

Phase One
Education for buildings.

Phase Two
Elements that manipulate Education, and Elements that are governed by Education Levels (like auto-builds).

Phase Three Platyping's Great Works, Training Center, and other Pythons (when added) that will have a part in Education.

Phase Four
Great Teacher.

Should affect productivity of most buildings really... the better educated your armorers are the more effective and efficient and skilled they are at making armor right?

Ok so I finally got around to restoring the science values on the eduction buildings. Rather than education replacing the science values on building like schools, they just add onto the existing science. Just like how it was before the education property was added.

When you hover over the Education Pseudo buildings in the pedia, they say "exist between X and Y". Crime buildings just say "exist above X".

The Y for Education is always very high, so it could as well be "above X".
You can use the current system for your favour: Make the first building only existing between A and B, the second between B and C, the 3rd between C and D...
You would only have one of them active at a time then.

The problem is you have to set a value. You can't just say infinity.

But why does it work with Crime then?

Really? Hmm. I never noticed.

Go in the Civ Pedia and hover over a Crime pseudo building (like Mugging) and then over an education pseudo building. See the differnce? Crime says "above" and education says "between"

I am not sure how or why that happens. If someone knows I say go for changing it to be like crime.

Hydromancerx said:

I am not sure how or why that happens. If someone knows I say go for changing it to be like crime.

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I could simply take a look at the way crime buildings are programmed and compare to the way the education ones are and should be able to spot the difference easily enough. I'll be happy to adjust that if I'm going to implement the following:


@The Team:

As some of you have already read from previous posts made in the bugs forum I've just done a major audit of the commerce system. I found a lot of bugs there and resolved them. Most were a matter of redundancies - the most glaring error being that buildings with a CommerceChange value were having those values (base +/- commerce) doubling (possibly in some cases trippling) up in the final calculation.

Upon fixing these issues, the slider now has a lot more impact (something was greatly muting it and in my audit I wasn't tracking how problems were playing out so much as just making it add up the way it's supposed to so I'm not sure how the slider was so muted) and is much more meaningful to the total commerce incomes BUT due to so many redundancies being repaired, research and other commerces are being roughly slashed in half after the fix.

This throws us into some imbalance as for perhaps the whole time we've been developing C2C we've been doing so on an erroneous foundation.

But it's not all bad. It gives us an opportunity to enable the Education property to have a lot more meaning without throwing off the game balance and instead helping to assist it.

At this point, I feel my proposal, here would go a long ways towards allowing players to STRATEGICALLY close the gap between the research levels they had (which were too high anyhow) and the ones they will have after the commerce audit.

I'll break down the details I'm proposing here for what I hope will be a brief discussion before we try out this proposed model for education auto-buildings.

First, a little base information for those who haven't been following this topic until now:

The education property is a positive one (unlike crime and disease) that you should want to be very high in your cities. Like crime and disease, at various levels it will auto-build special buildings in the city that represent the modifiers it's values bring to the community.

At the moment, if you've been astute, you may have noticed that the education auto-buildings are not offering all that much in the way of modifiers. Therefore, education as a property is not all that valuable to concern yourself with. You can pretty much ignore it as it's benefits and penalties are not going to make a very big difference either way.

It's not the greatest game design to have something like a property have so little impact on the nation. However, when I was making this proposal before I didn't press it too hard because I felt that it would probably further imbalance the game as we had SO much research being produced by our nations already (and it didn't seem right as it was at the time either.)

However, now that we have a large gap between the commerce volumes we were producing and the commerce values we will soon be producing after my next commit, I'm returning to re-propose this. I strongly feel it would be a good way to start rebalancing.

So, we have the following autobuildings for education in the mod already, listed with their positive/negative 'level' in parentheses afterwards:
Education (Intutive) (+1)
Education (Brilliant) (+2)
Education (Cultivated) (+3)
Education (Knowledgeable) (+4)
Education (Acumen) (+5)
Education (Scholarly) (+6)
Education (Enlightened) (+7)
Education (Cosmopolitan) (+8)
Education (Wunderkind) (+9)
Education (Mastermind) (+10)
Education (Unaware) (-1)
Education (Foolish) (-2)
Education (Senseless) (-3)
Education (Absurd) (-4)
Education (Moronic) (-5)
Education (Farcical) (-6)
Education (Dimwitted) (-7)
Education (Ridiculous) (-8)
Education (Preposterous) (-9)
Education (Idiocracy) (-10)

So if your education level starts falling beneath 0 you start getting those negative buildings and if you get it higher it starts getting those positive ones.

So the modifiers, all cumulative to the ones already earned, grow in strength exponentially as you increase or lose strength exponentially as you lose your education levels. Most follow that principle anyhow... some are more static in the way they expand or retract. You'll have to look at the document for more details but I'll give a brief overview of the intended modifiers here.

I'd like to add to these are as follows (keep in mind that the greatest extremes, Mastermind and Idiocracy would take a HUGE degree of dedication to achieve):

• iGreatPeopleRateModifier: This will make more educated civilizations quicker to gain GP pts and thus birth Great People. At Mastermind level, a civilization would be gaining +100% GP birth rate.
  
  
• iGreatGeneralRateModifier: Increases the amount of xp gained towards GG pts as the civilization grows more educated. A rather minimal bonus totaling to +5 at Mastermind level.
  
  
• iAnarchyModifier: Anarchy times take longer with a more educated society. More people have enough knowledge to have strong opinions making the sorting out of a new way to govern the nation take longer as arguments rage. One of the downsides of an enhanced education level. The penalty can get as high as 50% longer anarchy periods at Mastermind level.
  
  
• iFreeSpecialist: More educated people mean a more effective populace - small fractions of that populace performing their duties to a much more effective specialized degree offers the city these added modifiers in the form of added specialists. Caps at 4 free specialists for a Mastermind level education.
  
  
• iWarWearinessModifier: One of the downsides to an educated populace is that they tend to have far less tolerance for war as a means to resolve problems. Historically most riots and protests against war have begun at universities so this I think is an appropriate modifier. Mastermind level educations can bring about a total of +100% War Weariness in the city.
  
  
• iTradeRouteModifier: Arguments that trade should be rebalanced aside (which I agree and will be considering ways to address in the very immediate future), the amount of trade routes should be modified by the degree of education. More educated people means more people who know how to take advantage of the economic system - with a number of the populace utilizing this understanding for personal trade produces more benefits for each trade route in the city - up to 55% positive modifier for Mastermind level education.
  
  Then I can get on diminishing some of the base trade levels, particularly with food. I think the equation there can be fixed up to a better base balance degree upon which this modifier would then be fully appropriate. For now, however, this modifier would be one of many that would help bridge the audit gap.
  
  
• iRevolutionIndexModifier: Egos get stronger as education levels go up making more people believe there's a better way to govern than the idiots doing the job now. This leads us to enhancing the likelihood of revolt if playing on revolutions. Often this would be fairly offset by the nation actually being better managed in other ways at higher education levels but it could make the citizens a little more likely to formulate plans to break free from the empire. Up to a +20 rev index modifier (local likelihood to revolt) can be inflicted upon the city with a Mastermind level.
  
  
• iPopulationgrowthratepercentage: Highly educated people feel empowered to achieve something for themselves and for society before settling down and having children. They also feel that they should be able to carefully manage the raising of a family and in general, they tend to consider having a great many children to be potentially reckless and irresponsible. Thus, high education levels reduce the birth rate. Thus the growth rate percent (the amount of food required) may be penalized by up to 200% with a capped out education level.
  
  
• YieldModifiers/Food: Although people are slower to breed, they have enhanced agricultural skills and knowledge obtained by their education. Thus food yields are modified by up to 50% at Mastermind level.
  
  
• YieldModifiers/Production: Following the same concept as food, any laborer or labor management would be more greatly empowered to work smarter rather than harder and would obtain greater yields from a smaller amount of effort. Thus Production yeilds are modified by up to 50% at Mastermind level.
  
  
• YieldModifiers/Commerce: Operates on the same logic and modifiers as the other two yields.
  
  
• CommerceChanges/Research: Obviously the most direct impact of education levels would be that you would have a lot more educated researchers, both professional and amateur, that would have an opportunity to push the limits of current knowledge. Thus, you'd have a direct base value Research + or - based on the education level. Up to +30 for the city at Mastermind level.
  
  
• CommerceModifiers/Research: And you'd also have a percentage modifier to represent the improved efficiency of intended research projects. Between the two adjustments to research, we declare Education to have the strongest focused effect on this factor. Therefore you can gain up to +50% Research Modifier in the city at Mastermind level. If all commerce is sliding over to research, this means you've obtained about +100% research adjustment - but such a modifier would've been severely EARNED! And it could come with some backlash as not all modifiers for a high education are positive ones.
  
  
• Property Manipulators - Crime: It's proven that one of the best ways for a society to reduce crime is to educate its citizens - even though it may make the populace more CAPABLE of it and thus may actually open up the potential for some crimes that wouldn't otherwise be possible in a less educated society - to be eventually expressed by placing particular education level autobuildings as prereqs to those crimes that require a high degree of education. But overall, a more highly educated populace will FEEL more empowered to be able to achieve goals within the structure of the system which society offers rather than breaking those structures (laws) at great risk - a risk which more educated individuals are faster to recognize and respect. Therefore, as Education levels go up, crime is modified to go down - but that of course isn't all that it would take to stunt crime so the more dangerous society is one that is both highly educated and with a high crime rate.
  
  A total of -55 crime rate can be obtained by a Mastermind level education.
  
  
• Property Manipulators - Disease: More educated people are more capable of protecting themselves, know to respect cleanliness and more educated health care professionals are better at accurately diagnosing and preventing diseases. Thus a total of -55 disease rate can be achieved by a Mastermind level education.
  
  
• Property Manipulators - Flammability: Understanding fire and fire safety is part of what an education system performs for the people. Simply taking some basic instructions on preventative measures can greatly reduce the likelihood of fires in the community. Thus up to a -30 Flammability level can be obtained at a Mastermind level education.

I think it goes without saying that the opposite of these values is assigned to negative education levels in direct mirroring to the positive ones.

I also think you'll see why I feel these adjustments would make for a very proper means of rebalancing the game after this commerce audit bug fix.

All I need is the go ahead and I'll implement these right away. Any questions, comments or objections?

Do any or all of those go the other way when Education is negative?

Yudishtira said:

Do any or all of those go the other way when Education is negative?

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All invert. Take a look at the doc and it shows the progression in greater detail.

Looks very promising!

Are you going to do this over normal building tags for the Education Auto-Buildings?

-100% Great People rate I can deal with, but how do you reduce food required to grow by 100% and more?

I had a totally different idea and wanted Education as a consumable resource with a simple happiness and revolution modifier if there was not enough produced in the city to satisfy the needs expressed by housing. With some spillage from one city to others as communication technology improves.

BTW Your revolution modifier makes no sense as it stands. After all despots kill off the intellectuals when they want to reduce the chance of revolution not the less educated. It would need to be related to various civics.

@TB

You have my permission to edit the EQ_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml in my Science mod if you want to try out some of your ideas. I tried to keep it as a separate file in my mod so it could be easily tweaked without messing with the science buildings.

Thunderbrd, these are really great ideas and I absolutely say: Go for it!

I only have one single point of objection, just like Dancing Hoskuld:

Dancing Hoskuld said:

BTW Your revolution modifier makes no sense as it stands. After all despots kill off the intellectuals when they want to reduce the chance of revolution not the less educated. It would need to be related to various civics.

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In a Republic, Democracy or Constitutional Monarchy education should reduce the risk of revolution. In Despotism, Absolute Monarchy, Fundamentalism, Fascism etc. education should increase the risk of revolution.

i think that some ideas are good and other aren't good.the revolution part has already been mention.other one is the food requiere to growth.the number of children that a family have doesn't depend on the education ,but on health and cost of life .for example in middle ages until the 18th-19th century,most families have lots of children,even the ones that were more educated,simply because diseasds were most of then lethal
.after ww2 there was one of the biggest increase of population in history at a time that most people have a similar educacion of the one nowadays.the only reason of the decrease of childs is that now is expensier to maintain then,but it is offset by the low mortallity rate on children.also the war weariness isn't rigth.you are rigth that riots happen in universities due to wars, but not all the ones studing there maybe be against it . also people in universities aren't all the population. finally there are countries like israel that even with conscription, most people doesn't complain,has they feel that they are defending their country.it all the depend on how the population is educated

finally one thing of balance and is that low educated civs would be more usefull for war,has they will have bigger cities ,much more soldiers and really low war weariness,so has long there isn't a really big tech gap,they will steamroll "educated nations"