Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
There is a treaty prohibiting colonies in Antarctica.
A small step for this mod...
- Thread starter Faustmouse
- Start date
There is a treaty prohibiting colonies in Antarctica.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Faustmouse
Why in your demo game do you have a settler and a Arquebu? If you want to simulate it more you should have A Spacecraft Settler and Lunar Rover.
Here I made a new save with a spacecraft settler, lunar rover and police squad (for protection).
One thing I noticed is barbarians can spawn not only on lunar terrain but also on space terrain. We seriously need to fix that.
EDIT: What's also really weird is I see no buildings or anything in any of the cities.
Why in your demo game do you have a settler and a Arquebu? If you want to simulate it more you should have A Spacecraft Settler and Lunar Rover.
Here I made a new save with a spacecraft settler, lunar rover and police squad (for protection).
One thing I noticed is barbarians can spawn not only on lunar terrain but also on space terrain. We seriously need to fix that.
EDIT: What's also really weird is I see no buildings or anything in any of the cities.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
1) It's a Settler because I thought all other types of settlers are broken. And an Arquebu because I was too lazy to search for a more appropiate one in the WB mess. But thanks for fixing this!
2) Yes, barbarian needs to be fixed as well as the fact that you can build any building on the moon you can build on earth and also that terrestrial wonders give free buildings to your colony.
3) Is there still the problem that 2 lunar terrains causes crashes on ormal terrain set? if so, can we make the working set the default one?
4) What do you mean by "no buildings or anything in these cities"?
2) Yes, barbarian needs to be fixed as well as the fact that you can build any building on the moon you can build on earth and also that terrestrial wonders give free buildings to your colony.
3) Is there still the problem that 2 lunar terrains causes crashes on ormal terrain set? if so, can we make the working set the default one?
4) What do you mean by "no buildings or anything in these cities"?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
2. Well what we might need to do is have a Lunar auto-build building that only appears in lunar bases. And then have that replace ALL Earth buildings you don't want on a Mars base. Code wise you could keep it modular such as ...
Code:
<BuildingInfo>
<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_ZOO</BuildingClass>
<Type>BUILDING_ZOO</Type>
<ReplaceBuildings>
<ReplaceBuilding>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_BASE</BuildingClassType>
<bReplace>1</bReplace>
</ReplaceBuilding>
</ReplaceBuildings>
</BuildingInfo>And just replace the tag "ZOO" with all the other tags of buildings you don't want.
Note this will make the most insane building upgrade tree ever, but it should work.
Hopefully if we get most buildings requiring say buildings like the Storage Pit / Trading Post / Shopping District or buildings that requires that, then there will be less buildings to have to replace. That's one reason I wanted to have many types of buildings have a common core building requirement so we could then have a smaller pool of buildings to deal with.
3. I have not had any crashing problems with Lunar terrains (or Martian).
4. When I open up the city screen it shows no buildings. Even the auto-built ones. In addation it doesn't allow me to build any new buildings. Only units or projects.
5. I also get an error loading where it says you use the tag large crater. There are 3 lunar craters; FEATURE_LUNAR_CRATER1, FEATURE_LUNAR_CRATER2 and FEATURE_LUNAR_CRATER3. I don't recall which was the large one.
EDIT: Apparently FEATURE_LUNAR_CRATER1 is the Medium Crater.
EDIT2: Fixing the tag problem allowed for all buildings to show up again.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
So upon founding I have the following non-lunar buildings as choices to build ...
- Barracks
-Bug Catcher
- Clay Pit
-Hunter's Camp
- Graveyard
-Percussion Instrument Maker
- Town Patrol
-Apiary
- Roads
-Dog Breeder
- School Of Rhetoric
-Apothecary Shop
-Tree Nursery
- Mountain Climbing Site
- Water Tower
- Garrison
-Megafarm
-Balloon Rides
-Modeling Agency
-Bed n Breakfast
-Green Belts
Many of these can be solves by giving them buildings requirements such as as the Modeling Agency requiring Offices (already done) or Apothecary Shop require Trading Post (should also have an obsolete tech).
While others might actually make sense on a Lunar Base such as Graveyard, Roads or Mining Camp.
Others are triggered by auto-buildings like the Water Tower and Clay Pit are triggered by the Water Pipes. Likewise some are triggered by non-lunar stuff like the Mountain Climbing site is there because of the Peak but the moon should not use peaks on their map.
Note this is just upon founding. As it grows I am sure other stuff will pop up due to city size limitations.
- Barracks
-
- Clay Pit
-
- Graveyard
-
- Town Patrol
-
- Roads
-
- School Of Rhetoric
-
-
- Mountain Climbing Site
- Water Tower
- Garrison
-
-
-
-
-
Many of these can be solves by giving them buildings requirements such as as the Modeling Agency requiring Offices (already done) or Apothecary Shop require Trading Post (should also have an obsolete tech).
While others might actually make sense on a Lunar Base such as Graveyard, Roads or Mining Camp.
Others are triggered by auto-buildings like the Water Tower and Clay Pit are triggered by the Water Pipes. Likewise some are triggered by non-lunar stuff like the Mountain Climbing site is there because of the Peak but the moon should not use peaks on their map.
Note this is just upon founding. As it grows I am sure other stuff will pop up due to city size limitations.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
2. I also thought about that. but it's a tendious job. Other ideas I had were:
a) Use the "not in the same city as..." tag on the Lunar Base (which is the autobuild lunar building you were talking about). this would at least avoid the upgrade path...
b) Use the "not" requirement for all buildings in question. Like: "Not if lunar terrain in vicinity".
c) Implent a new tag "terrestrial" for all buildings.
3. I will try again, but whenever I tried it, it crashed. and DH said he doesn't have any issues because he uses alternative terrain.
4 + 5) I get the same error, but still I can build normal buildings. So I will try the 2 and 3 crater then, thanks!
6) So how can I make a building autobuild?
@alberts: Oh i didn't know it doesn't exist :/
@Hydro's 2nd post: Yes, those buildings makes sense indeed... But I think regular earth buildings would come far later in the tech tree. there are simply other requirements when it comes to an almost non-existing athmosphere and lower gravity. think about what a mining camp on earth is and if it would really be the same on the moon.
Also, why shouldn't there be any mountains on the moon?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
If we have vicinity terrain requirements for buildings it would probably be better to use that rather than other stuff first up. For example have a auto built "Earth Building" that requires any of the Earth terrains then one for the moon and another for Mars. Then have all buildings that can only be built on specific planets require that building. Temples, monasteries and cathedrals for example would be available anywhere so need no change but "stick gatherer" would need "Earth building". It would be better also as you would have a single file of those you don't want until this all gets into the main mod. It will also make merging it back into the main mod easier than what Hydro suggested.
Interesting the XML element for this, an or terrain list, has been defined in the Building Schema but has not been attached to the BuildingInfos definition. @TB is this a work in progress?
Interesting the XML element for this, an or terrain list, has been defined in the Building Schema but has not been attached to the BuildingInfos definition. @TB is this a work in progress?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
2b. That should be useful but only for buildings that we have no choice but use that.
2c. That would do the trick. The problem is that you would need it for ALL buildings. And then what happens when you terraform the moon?
2d. One thing I am not liking from your buildings is you basically have duplicates for every building. Existing buildings that make sense should be tweaked to work. Such as a normal Observatory should be possible on the moon. You just need to tweak its requirements to allow it to do so.
3. No I mean when I tried using the terrain in world builder it worked fine and I use the default terrain textures.
6. At the end of the code add <bAutoBuild>1</bAutoBuild> to a building. Make sure the requirements can only be met in a Lunar city otherwise it will be built in Earth ones too.
8a. Well originally I wanted to have the Earth buildings be able to be built later on Lunar and Martian colonies. Its only through building requirements that they would initially be limited. Some of my ideas were say having air or basic structures. Because once you have an enclosed colony many of the same buildings could be made such as stores, utilities, etc. You would not have to have Lunar Toilets and Lunar Pizza Parlors. As long as the infrastructure was in place one could assume a colony could become like a regular city.
Note that these infrastructure things would be the EXPENSIVE parts. Possibly not even buildable and have to be sent to the colony via cargo spaceships that build them like how animals can build myth buildings.
8b. The lower gravity part could be countered at anti-gravity tech with gravity generators. Note that's very late Transhuman Era. And an atmosphere could be added at Lunar Terraforming tech which is mid Galactic Era.
8c. Those Peaks have snow so they should not be thre. However we should have special lunar peaks that are Terrain Features rather than a terrain base type (ex. flatland, hill or peak). Like a volcano or crater these Lunar Peaks (and Martian Peaks) would have to be placed on flat terrain. But unlike an Earth peak they would match the color or their respective worlds. Possibly without snow too.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Indeed, you can only have one set of Peaks. It is a base terrain type not a terrain type. It may be possible to have it as a terrain type but it depends on if you want them to be removed or not. If you want them to be removable then they need to be a terrain feature, not sure how to do that either.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
DH our default "Peak" would be the Earth one. Lunar an Martian "peaks" would not be peaks at all but instead be much like mountains in the the Natural Wonders mod. They would be placed on flat terrain and unlike the Natural Wonders mod have more than one on that terrain. Just like the Volcanoes do.
In short making Lunar Mountains and Martian Mountains as terrain feature that matched the terrain color would work just fine. Especially since once you get to those places you have long since discovered mountaineering tech. So traveling through them should not matter.
The only real difference I see is if there is a resource sharing the same tile as them. Unlike a "true peak" the resource would not be pushed up. Likewise any until passing through one of these terrain features would cover up the unit. Just like on Natural Wonders.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I would have to look but I'd imagine it's probably good if it's defined in the schema. I don't personally leave anything in the schema that hasn't been pretty much worked out at least enough to function. Can't verify that for sure without looking into it further though.
I had another concept of how to go about this but it's based on the next project which may at this point be a while before I can work on it.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The problem is that it is only half defined in the schema. The data elements are there but they don't appear in the definition of the BuildingInfos element.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
What's the tag exactly? I'll do some research.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
2d) The thing here is - again - that transporting stuff to the moon is expensive. Just to get in low earth orbit it costs between 4.300 to 40.000 $/kg. The Falcon Heavy, currently under developement, would cost approx 1.600 $/kg to launch. There are cheaper systems (like 400 $/kg) but with only 160 kg payload to low earth orbit, which I doubt can reach the moon at all, and even if, then more then 90% of this payload had to be fuel. A space
elevator would reduce this to 220 $/kg. These high costs force rocket engineers to have as little unecessary mass as possible. That's why their food is freeze dried and has to use water (from the fuel cells) to be converted in normal food. Getting the raw materials for Pizza to the moon just to have a Pizza Parlor is rather.... weird. The colony would struggle with basic survial and grow at first. Luxury, like pizza would come much later. Other point is, that resources that are plentiful on earth are very limited on the moon. But I get your point. The main problem is probably the costs. Observatory are a medieval/renaissance building IIRC and would take like "0" turns to be build in the TH era. Plus, since there is "no" atmosphere on the moon and on the background also less radio etc contamination, your observatories will yield MUCH better results. That's why the dublicates.
8a) You made a good point here: "Once the infrastructure is around...". This would take a fair while (well, not as long as I'd like techwise). IMO, Grav Generators come far to early. but even IF, they'd consume enormous amounts of power. You need powerplants to provide this energy. Megastructures are probably "ok" to build with the lunar iron and glass, but still needs to be very strong (micro meteorites, high pressure difference, high temperature differences, big size... The material needs to be extracted and processed first. And also the atmosphere inside those infrastructures... what is it? Technically, "Air" is not feasable since Nitrogen is scarce on the moon. Oxygen can be generated from (also scarce) water or metal oxides maybe. But the latter one also consumes tons of power.
Another question is: Why would you expect a colony to grow this big in such a short time? Generation time is quite a few turns in the TH era. Do you really NEED so many people up there to run a usefull base from an economical POW. Most certainly not tens of thousends. And people that just want to live there like immigrants? Well, its very expensive to get there and you won't have to much luxury up there. Small flats maybe... not much to do besides working... enclosure... it would take time till the colony really becomes city.
I like terraforming as well. It would be cool if the moon and the mars can be slowly, and under high costs converted into a second earth. But this will take quite a long time. I haven't thought so far in the future here.
I'm sure we get to common solution here because we basically want the same thing - the differnce here is that I want those things to come much later
It's not only more realistic to have a very slow growing colony, but also nicer gameplay wise. Do you want just more room for new "regular" cities on the moon or do you want something "new", that gives and additional challenge and feeling in the TH era?
8c) Ok, makes perfect sense.
elevator would reduce this to 220 $/kg. These high costs force rocket engineers to have as little unecessary mass as possible. That's why their food is freeze dried and has to use water (from the fuel cells) to be converted in normal food. Getting the raw materials for Pizza to the moon just to have a Pizza Parlor is rather.... weird. The colony would struggle with basic survial and grow at first. Luxury, like pizza would come much later. Other point is, that resources that are plentiful on earth are very limited on the moon. But I get your point. The main problem is probably the costs. Observatory are a medieval/renaissance building IIRC and would take like "0" turns to be build in the TH era. Plus, since there is "no" atmosphere on the moon and on the background also less radio etc contamination, your observatories will yield MUCH better results. That's why the dublicates.
8a) You made a good point here: "Once the infrastructure is around...". This would take a fair while (well, not as long as I'd like techwise). IMO, Grav Generators come far to early. but even IF, they'd consume enormous amounts of power. You need powerplants to provide this energy. Megastructures are probably "ok" to build with the lunar iron and glass, but still needs to be very strong (micro meteorites, high pressure difference, high temperature differences, big size... The material needs to be extracted and processed first. And also the atmosphere inside those infrastructures... what is it? Technically, "Air" is not feasable since Nitrogen is scarce on the moon. Oxygen can be generated from (also scarce) water or metal oxides maybe. But the latter one also consumes tons of power.
Another question is: Why would you expect a colony to grow this big in such a short time? Generation time is quite a few turns in the TH era. Do you really NEED so many people up there to run a usefull base from an economical POW. Most certainly not tens of thousends. And people that just want to live there like immigrants? Well, its very expensive to get there and you won't have to much luxury up there. Small flats maybe... not much to do besides working... enclosure... it would take time till the colony really becomes city.
I like terraforming as well. It would be cool if the moon and the mars can be slowly, and under high costs converted into a second earth. But this will take quite a long time. I haven't thought so far in the future here.
I'm sure we get to common solution here because we basically want the same thing - the differnce here is that I want those things to come much later
It's not only more realistic to have a very slow growing colony, but also nicer gameplay wise. Do you want just more room for new "regular" cities on the moon or do you want something "new", that gives and additional challenge and feeling in the TH era?8c) Ok, makes perfect sense.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
These
Code:
<ElementType name="bPrereqTerrain" content="textOnly" dt:type="boolean"/>
<ElementType name="TerrainType" content="textOnly"/>
<ElementType name="PrereqTerrain" content="eltOnly">
<element type="TerrainType"/>
<element type="bPrereqTerrain"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="PrereqOrTerrain" content="eltOnly">
<element type="PrereqTerrain" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="PrereqAndTerrain" content="eltOnly">
<element type="PrereqTerrain" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Faustmouse
8a) Well anti-gravity technology (which in turn can also produce gravity) comes quite a bit after Fusion power so I would think that power is not an issue by then.
The scale of technology we are talking about is like comparing the Prehistoric era to Industrial Era. We are just covering such as vast scale of technology from initial Lunar Colonies which on our tree can more or less be accomplished with technology that is already in our current past. Look at today's technology compared to the technology we had going to the moon. Its almost comical how much our devices can do compared to the most advanced technology they had. Now think of of that going 50 years or more into our future.
I would like a mixture of both. Otherwise ou might as well just not allow cities on the Moon or Mars and just have "Forts" that look like Moon bases.
8a) Well anti-gravity technology (which in turn can also produce gravity) comes quite a bit after Fusion power so I would think that power is not an issue by then.
The scale of technology we are talking about is like comparing the Prehistoric era to Industrial Era. We are just covering such as vast scale of technology from initial Lunar Colonies which on our tree can more or less be accomplished with technology that is already in our current past. Look at today's technology compared to the technology we had going to the moon. Its almost comical how much our devices can do compared to the most advanced technology they had. Now think of of that going 50 years or more into our future.
I would like a mixture of both. Otherwise ou might as well just not allow cities on the Moon or Mars and just have "Forts" that look like Moon bases.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Faustmouse & TB
Also one thing I was planning on involving both Lunar and Martian terrain is terrain damage and how a promotion/equipment could help reduce or eliminate damage from lack of air and radiation. Thus units not specially made for the Moon or Mars could be fitted to do so. Ones like the Lunar Rover would get them standard, but at the cost of being a weaker battle unit.
Also one thing I was planning on involving both Lunar and Martian terrain is terrain damage and how a promotion/equipment could help reduce or eliminate damage from lack of air and radiation. Thus units not specially made for the Moon or Mars could be fitted to do so. Ones like the Lunar Rover would get them standard, but at the cost of being a weaker battle unit.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
Yet there is still only one nation that ever had a human on the moon and only 4 that ever landed something on the it.
Also, it's not that Fusion makes power unlimited.
I'd like to have some kind of forts first and then later you can only found your cities on those "forts". So when do you think lunar cities should be able to build most normal buildings as well?
And I also had the idea of terrain damage to simulate limited exploring range
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Having such a feature would be also nice for the Nomadic start mod.
On a side note I have been slowly marking off the initial buildings that show up bu giving them various building requirements. The ones I can figure out are Barracks/Garrison, Roads, Town Patrol, Mining Camp and Graveyard. All of which I could see possibly being used on a Lunar Colony too.
