Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

Foot in mouth, too easy with what I tried. Starting mines make it too easy with beginning production... gonna try deleting them and also - only + 1 HP for first Legio, no others for power balance... also only + 2 to Cities and no bonus from original for Towns for Unit Support in all Republican Govts except Civil War.

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I still like your original idea of having the large cities not doing the share for the defence of the empire

consider removing the Standard Tile Penalty from Anarchy so that large cities do not suffer so much when switching to Civil War and back; I consider Anarchy just an extention of the Civil War, and since Civil War has no tile penalty, Anarchy shouldn't either.

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Hum? Civil war has a tile penalty! And city should suffer under a civil war!

since the "Renovatio Diocletiani" & Diocese improvements go obsolete (or well, the Diocese are meant to go obsolete) with the technology right after the technology that lets you build them, the prices on the "Renovatio Diocletiani" & Diocese need to be drastically reduced so that they can be built and actually be of some use before they go obsolete. Maybe make both of them go obsolete with the "Division of Theodosius" and lower their prices a bit?

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I need to learn from you experience again Randy In (my) theory, the diocese are not going obsolete until the barb reach a tech (which doesn’t work, will be changed). They require, to be built, the presence of a Diocletian reform in the city, which indeed does go obsolete with time. This mean (I hope) that you can build diocese in the cities with the reform built, and that obviously until that reform become obsolete itself. But by then, the built dioceses stay in function until later. Right?

because of Byzantium's low production, it takes the city 150 turns (with 18 shields per turn!) to rebuild the Capitol in it! Thus, I'm going to try adding a Hill with an Ore resource on it (no roads) on the tile NorthWest of Byzantium. The price of building the Capitol needs to be reduced quite a bit as well.

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18 shields a turn would give you… *slowly counting*… the palace (300 shields) in about 15 turns! Price will be reduced.

since the Christian Imperialism government's corruption is Communal, Italy, Spain, etc. etc. isn't hit so hard as intended when the Capitol is moved to Byzantium and all the corruption-reducing improvements go obsolete. Thus, I'm going to try making Christian Imperialism's corruption be Problematic.

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With all your praetorium and diocese still fine, it might sounds too much, but with these buildings obsolete, a communal government would be the last chance to rule the empire as a whole. Once the west is history, you should get back to a more centralized type of government. I would prefer to reduce some other stat of the Christian government, like unit free support

in all my time up to 230 AC, I had no problem whatsoever with running over the barbarian nations. Thus, I'm going to try giving their foot troops 2 movement points and no penalty costs in forest movement. I know, I know, I'm digging my own grave. But oh well!

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You never met any disruptore or incursore, did you ?

Going to try starting a new game now with all these changes I've recommended.

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Great job all!

RFRE Tentative List for Patch 0.7
Comments appreciated; I wish we can reach a consensus (in other word a version we will all be happy to test )

Units

Massive reorganization of the units for AI civs, aiming at having the AI stockpiling a mixed off/def units rather than just militia (which disappear). In case of war, the AI is likely to be more aggressive, using units stocked in cities for offence as well as defence. Some pop is also added to slow down excessive building of these polyvalent units (although hoping it will not reduce AI cities to the size of villages)

Name AI strategy Att(Bomb)/Def/Move HitPoints Cost


Greek Civs:

Hoplites: off/def 6/4/1 +1HP, 40 shields & 1 pop
Phalanx: off/def 6/4/1 +2HP, 40 shields & 1 pop
Peltastae: off 6(2)/2/2 +0HP, 40 shields
Equitati: off 6/2/2 - 1HP, 35 shields
Equ. Catafr. off 6/3/2 +0HP, 40 shields

Carthage

Mercenarii off 6/3/1 +1HP, 40 shields
Mercenarii off/def 5/4/1 +0HP, 40 shields & 1pop
Equitati: off 6/2/2 - 1HP, 35 shields
Equ. Numidici off 10(5)/3/2 +0HP, wonder generated
Elephanti Lor. off 7(3)/5/2 +2HP, wonder generated
Ex. Barcae off 8(3)/4/2 +4HP, wonder generated

Egypt
Pedites off/def 5/4/1 +1HP, 30 shields & 1pop
Legio Antonis off 8/4/1 +1HP, wonder generated
Camelites off 5(2)/3/2 +0HP, 30 shields

Parthia and Sassanids
Hippotoxotae off 7(3x2)/2/2 +0HP, 50 shields & 1pop
Hippotoxotae off 10(4x2)/3/2 +0HP, 60 shields & 1pop
Pedites off/def 5(2)/4/1 +0HP, 30 shields
Elephanti Lor. off 7(3)/5/2 +2HP, wonder generated
Clibanarii off 12(4x2)/4/2 +0HP, 60 shields & 1pop
Praes. Sax. def 6/6/1 +0HP, 50 shields

Pontus
Armeni Bel. off 7/3/1 +1HP, 40 shields & 1 pop
Pedites off/def 5(2)/4/1 +0HP, 30 shields
Ex. Mithrid. off 10/5/2 +4HP, wonder generated


Rome
Legio off (S) 6(2)/4/1 +1HP, 40 shields & 1pop
Velites off (F) 4(3)/2/1 +0HP, 25 shields (build road at 100)
Funditores art (F) 2(1x3-1)/2/1 +0HP, 25 shields
Sag. Aux. art (S) 3(1x4-1)/3/1 +0HP, 45 shields
Ballista art (S) 0(5x1-1)/0/1 40 shields (no lethal, no ZoC)
Catapulta art (S) 0(10x2-1)/0/1 75 shields (no lethal, no ZoC)
Legio Consularis off (S) 8(3)/4/1 +1HP, 65 shields & 2pop
Legio Imperatoria off (S) 10(3)/5/1 +1HP, 90 shields & 2pop
Other Roman units unchanged

(S) Require support (for Rome)
(F) Don’t require support (for Rome)

Barbarians
Barbarian units to be in general enhanced (A/D; move; less pop cost; or HP?) More (later)

Movement

- Road Movement rate increased from 4 to 5
- Cymba (transports) no longer require support

Governments

- Monarchy free upkeep reduced from 3/6/8 to 2/4/4
- Republic free upkeep changed from 0/2/4 to 1/2/3
- Triumvirate republic free upkeep changed from 0/2/5 to 1/3/3
- Imperialism free upkeep changed from 0/2/6 to 1/3/4
- Absolutism free upkeep changed from 0/3/6 to 2/3/3 (no more forced resettlement!)
- Christian Imperialism free upkeep changed from 0/2/5 to 1/2/3
- Civil war free upkeep changed from 0/2/2 to 1/1/2
- Anarchy

Buildings

- Triumphus cost reduced from 150 to 80 shields
- Thermae now require a triumphus rather than an aqueduct to be build
- Castrum Imperatoris cost reduced from 300 to 150 shields

Wonders

- Imperium Caesaris cost reduced from 150 to 80 shields
- Persecutiones Christianorum (and Immolatio Christiani) to be removed or effects to be changed
- Hadrian’s Wall cost reduced from 250 to 75; anchor will be added
- Crux Lesi cost reduced from 300 to 100
- Biblia cost reduced from 300 to 150
- Limes Danuvii cost reduced from 250 to 150; anchor will be added
- Limes Persidis cost reduced from 250 to 150
- Limes Rhaetiani cost reduced from 250 to 150
- Annus Quartorum Imperatorum cost reduced from 100 to 0
- Opus Imperator-Soldati cost reduced from 300 to 100
- Edictum Mediolani's cost reduced from 500 to 300
- Diocletian's Reform & Diocese: is it working as it should?

Excessive accumulation of units by the AI
- High costs buildings implemented for most civilized civs (tentatively Bazaar for Persia, Baal’s Shrine for Carthage, Lesser Pyramids for Egypt, Hellenic Academy for Greek nations), in order to reduce early unit build-up.
- Change to units stat as mentioned in the unit section
- More (later)

Map
- Barium to be removed or Bovianum moved north
- Core barbarian cities placed on a marsh
- Adding a few building in Roman cities as game starts?
- 'Holes' on the edge will be filled (no cities at the limit of the map)
- Deserts cannot be settled for real


Praetorium & Diocese
- Will now be made obsolete by a Roman tech and become small-wonders
- More (later)

Bugs
- Bugs linked to path for Sagitarri Auxiliari and Sarmathian Swordsman fixed
- AI tech line fixed so that events now come at correct timing
- Arrow on scientific screen for 2nd era is fixed

I will be busy with a meeting a large part of this week, but will collect fruitful comments Friday and get you the pacth ready for next Monday. Cheers

pinktilapia said:

18 shields a turn would give you… *slowly counting*… the palace (300 shields) in about 15 turns! Price will be reduced.

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But before you built the Palace, Byzantium would suffer corruption.

sorry to comment so soon, just a quick question.
How does placing cities on Marsh Terrain not allow Rome to take them? Is it the added Defensive Bonus? Is it the nonaccessability by Wheeled Units? Couldn't Rome capture the city with Velites? I am very curious, never having encountered such a restriction.
Btw- the new patch sounds AWESOME, can't wait, dunno to even both with my own game until I get the new version =0)

pink! i have the solution to the praetorium problem!! you make the a wonder (call it marcus aurelius's leadership or whatever you want) and place it in philosopher on the throne tech. you give it the effects of the Great Library in regular civ so that you get any tech already owned by 2 civs, and have it go obsolete with the tech 168-whatver. therefore when the barbs get that tech you will get it too. i think you can make it so rome can get it by simply removing the flavor flag. im gonna fool around with this just to see what happens, because this would do exactly what you want.
tell me what you think of that. also, i think 6-3-1 for legios is the way it should be, having a defense of 4 is unfair and makes it not a challenge. i mean, when romes legions were attacked in surprise, think cannae, teutoburgerwald, etc, they got totally destroyed. this defense point should reflect the fact that when legions were ambushed they got messed up! also, if you cant just send the legios anywhere without worrying about their defense, itll make the game more strategic. heres somethign i did which made the battel with carthage much more realistic. take away the fabrica that is in carthage. i know it doesnt seem like much, but it made a big difference as far as unit production, money, etc goes. and i think militia should either have 3-3-1 or -1 hp. they have to be weakened so that the enemy uses them more as fodder (like the velites) instead of the entire army. last thing... for all greek cities, give them "nationalism" or "patriotism" which gives them a 50% defense bonus, that should help with them being too easy a little bit.

That is an incredible idea. However, I think Rome should Start with the Wonder you Just mentioned. Their stuff would automatically become obsolete. However, we would have to make sure that they can't do anything with the Barbarian techs they automatically learn. In fact, we could make this another affect of the Capitolium. Great Idea!!

why thank you loki! if rome cant get any other barb techs (ie only uncheck this eras flavor flag) then it would be fine to have it from the beginning. cool indeed

I agree about Legio defense strength, for balance and realism... Why build the Hoplite Alarii if not for its defense... also- the upgraded bombardment value (2), or even 3 would make them survive better on attack.
I also think Velites building roads would make it too easy

blitzkrieg80 said:

sorry to comment so soon, just a quick question.
How does placing cities on Marsh Terrain not allow Rome to take them? Is it the added Defensive Bonus? Is it the nonaccessability by Wheeled Units? Couldn't Rome capture the city with Velites? I am very curious, never having encountered such a restriction.
Btw- the new patch sounds AWESOME, can't wait, dunno to even both with my own game until I get the new version =0)

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Foot units can't enter Marshes; therefore, if a city is on the Marsh terrain, Rome's foot units cannot enter the city and therefore cannot capture it.

King Coltrane said:

pink! i have the solution to the praetorium problem!! you make the a wonder (call it marcus aurelius's leadership or whatever you want) and place it in philosopher on the throne tech. you give it the effects of the Great Library in regular civ so that you get any tech already owned by 2 civs, and have it go obsolete with the tech 168-whatver. therefore when the barbs get that tech you will get it too. i think you can make it so rome can get it by simply removing the flavor flag. im gonna fool around with this just to see what happens, because this would do exactly what you want.

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I've been thinking about something like for a while. Glad you put it into words. It is indeed a great idea! You can even take this method further to force the Roman player into having to keep researching technology to get better buildings and units (and not stopping at Antionine's Golden Age) by having certain things go obsolete with the appropriate time period technology. You may have to split up the technologies into 50-year periods again and set the max research time to 25 turns so that things can go obsolete in a more specified time period, but over all, it would probably work well. And, of course, Rome would have to start with this wonder so that the player can't just choose not to build and therefore ditch all those buildings and units going obsolete.

King Coltrane said:

also, i think 6-3-1 for legios is the way it should be, having a defense of 4 is unfair and makes it not a challenge. i mean, when romes legions were attacked in surprise, think cannae, teutoburgerwald, etc, they got totally destroyed. this defense point should reflect the fact that when legions were ambushed they got messed up! also, if you cant just send the legios anywhere without worrying about their defense, itll make the game more strategic.

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So just because some legions were completely destroyed by surprise attacks in history, ALL legions should be destroyed when on the defense? Hoplites Alarii still serve their purpose as a defensive unit in their time because of their lower cost. In the upcoming version where you can't mass Ballistae and annihilate massive armies with the Ballistae alone, you're going to have enough problems with losing your legions when you attack cities alone Have them get butchered on the defense as well and you won't be getting much done military-wise.

pinktilapia said:

I need to learn from you experience again Randy In (my) theory, the diocese are not going obsolete until the barb reach a tech (which doesn’t work, will be changed). They require, to be built, the presence of a Diocletian reform in the city, which indeed does go obsolete with time. This mean (I hope) that you can build diocese in the cities with the reform built, and that obviously until that reform become obsolete itself. But by then, the built dioceses stay in function until later. Right?

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Once the Diocletian Reform improvement goes obsolete, it can't be built any more. The effects (happy/sad faces, culter, etc.) it had on the city will no longer work once it goes obsolete as well. However, AFAIK, as long as you still have the improvement in the city/cities, you can still build the Diocese (until, of course, the Diocese go obsolete)..

well randy, thanks for the compliment. on another note however, i have only got maybe 10 ballistae throughout the map in my current game and so far i have hispania, all of africa (yes egypt) Italy, half of gaul and all of Illyria. i have been forced to choose my moves quite carefully so i dont get ambushed and as much as id love that extra point on defense for the legions, i think its too much. the legios seem to be the best unit in your early wars anyway, aside from barcas mercs and i think that the extra point on defense isnt fair to the mercenarii. and you are right that a few defeats doesnt warrant a change to a unit, but we dont want the RISE of rome to be a BREEZE. i mean ultimately its pink's decision, but id say 6-3-1 is best. and finally, i think OUR ideas for the praetorium/diocese/whatever buildings going obsolete stuff are really interesting and should be worked on. im glad i wasnt alone in thought, aside from receiving compliments

Don't forget that Mercenarii don't cost a population point when created (at least in the latest version) AND can make amphibious attacks. I'd say that the Roman legions having 1 defense point over them wouldn't be too much of an advantage.

1 question... did anyone else notice the maximus unit? i assume thats the king unit for rome in regicide, but this game isnt regicide so whats the deal? lol

Just quickly dropping by. King Coltrane, your idea is saving the whole mod. Thanks! Just have to find a way the Roman doesn't willingly loose Rome to get rid of his 'great library' (i.e. I will give this effect to various or even all Roman wonders!)

For the legions, I will go for a 3.5 (uh... well rounded to 4 ) def in version 0.7 (without saying this is final). With the reorganization of the non-roman civilized units, there should be much more attack from the AI (imagine, the previously massed militia will now be hoplites and the kind) and the legions will need to be able to resist some of these attacks. It should also help Rome to secure a landing in Africa during the 2nd punic war...

I get back to my workshop!

But since you already gave the legions an incrase in defensive bombard, won't this make them too strong on defense.

Btw, when is version 0.7 coming out?

In my current game, I researched praetor, but am not able to build the praetoriums. Am I missing a resource or did I hit the wrong button in the editor?

Quick suggestion - Croton is located too far south, besides drawing resources from Messana. I think you could move Croton up one space and it would be better all around.. or maybe rename Croton to Rhegium.

For the upcoming version, is it my understanding that you split Sarmatia/Dacia/Germania up into numerous barbarian tribes, pinktilapia? Also, as for my comment on beefing the barbarians up -- nevermind! Now that their units are actually appearing in the right time period, those infantry with 2 movement points (even in forest; used to be only 1) are vicious! Worse enough they outmaneuver and easily defeat Legios when they attack, but then they can retreat too! I'd say the 1 movement point for Barbarian infantry is good.

P.S. I'm not sure what you did with the non-nationality barbarian units in the last patch, but the barbarian nations use them much more now! It was pretty neat (yet annoying ) to actually be invaded by hordes of these units without a war starting.

I think th at the unit piratae is too good. When I made a right of passage agreement with Iryllia so I could fight a war with macedonia. But my legions were constantly being attacked and killed by Iryllian pirates. Then, the pirates captured my city and it became Iryllian. I couldn't get it back without fighting a war. Because of the right of passage, the pirates could use my roads to attack my cities without warning. That is not unly unfair but unrealistic.

No...If I recall correctly, a wonder is only made obsolete when the side that possesses it discovers the tech that makes it expire.

loki1232 said:

I think th at the unit piratae is too good. When I made a right of passage agreement with Iryllia so I could fight a war with macedonia. But my legions were constantly being attacked and killed by Iryllian pirates. Then, the pirates captured my city and it became Iryllian. I couldn't get it back without fighting a war. Because of the right of passage, the pirates could use my roads to attack my cities without warning. That is not unly unfair but unrealistic.

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You just let yourself get suckered into that! Lesson 1: don't sign RoP with nations that can build non-nationality units!



Anyways, some quick comments:

I finally managed to conquer Carthage for once fairly early on in the game because of the lowered Monarchy military support! They put up a bitter fight, tho! So, I finally got a chance to build the Castrum Numidici. They're pretty expensive for a city that's going to have rampant corruption tho; it takes Cirta 100 turns to make just one of thed Castrum Numidici in my game! Yikes. Think you can lower it?

Otherwise, these new unit stats and settings that you've recommended are working out well. Massed Funditores aren't a problem (a fear I had) because the majority of their bombards fail. The enemies put up a pretty good fight overall as well.

Oh, and in my game, I gave the Romans the ability to sign military alliances with anyone in the game. Is that bad and not what you'd want in the game, or? It's been pretty nice in my current game.

Is anyone ever going to put out a new patch?

Btw: I know that now, but should the Pirates really be able to capture cities?