Rome and Roma. Problem solved
[Speculation] Italian States/Papal States/Venice
- Thread starter sukritact
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3 from Africa is also very likely IMO, but 3 from Asia seems unlikely to me...It's unlikely we'll get three civs from Asia. I'd be pleasantly surprised if got Assyria, Indonesia and some other Asian civ(Burma or Vietnam would be nice), but it seems unlikely to me. Most likely there's going to be 2 civs from Asia, 2 from Africa, 2 from the Americas and 3 from Europe.
I say Florence would be a better choice. Then there's no naming dilemma.
Dark_Jedi06
"Deus ex Machina."
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Il Corvo Bianco
Warlord
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The main point is, you continue naming "city states" - but the period of city states in Italy was remarkably short, more or less from 1150 to 1250. After that, the Communes congealed in republics and princedoms and dukedoms and kingdoms, which waged war between themselves and others. I see difficult to represent Venice as a city state, for example, when it conquered and conquered and conquered to nourish its trade economy, establishing a veritable archipelago empire; more or less in the same period, in 1395, Gian Galeazzo Visconti bought the title of Dukedom for the Margraviate of Milan and started a series of conquest that, had he not died of plague in 1402 (almost alone in his army - bad luck at its finest), would have ended in dominion over Northern Italy and the conquest of the Iron Crown of Lombardy. Italy was not "squabbling lordlings ruling over a couple of huts and a cathedral"; using City States and pretending it's a good way to do it is out of this world. No, I will not rage if Italy is not in, but the current arrangements are very, very far from truth.
Civilization 5 is sold in more languages than just English. Your suggestion might not work in Italian for example.
Very true
I've already said, have Florence as the Capital. It was the center of the Renaissance. As it was a bunch of city states there was no capital anyway, so Florence would make the most sense, both in terms of history and gameplay.
seasnake
Conquistador
It's not a question of "for Italy" or "against Italy" as much as "Is Italy likely?" In light of the Scramble for Africa, Uffizi, the new trading mechanism, and the introduction of Great Works in the game it seems that Italy would make a lot of sense.
The people defending Italy as a choice seem to be divided into two camps, 1) those who think Italy should be in the game and 2) those who see no reason why Italy should not be in the game. I fall into the latter, I would not choose Italy but I think if you have the Polynesians, Celts, Maya and Greeks you can't argue the lack of unification as a bar very effectively, the presence of USA and Sweden defeat an antiquity argument, The presence of the Huns and Siam seem to fly in the face of a longevity argument.
really, the best argument is the diversity argument, but I frankly feel that Sweden and Poland smite that argument. If you wanted to really pursue out of Europe as a priority I think you would have only included Portugal and then developed other areas. But with Poland in play (and no scenario requiring its presence) it tells me there is no impetus to avoid Europe for the sake of the rest of the world, even if Europe is overrepresented.
The people defending Italy as a choice seem to be divided into two camps, 1) those who think Italy should be in the game and 2) those who see no reason why Italy should not be in the game. I fall into the latter, I would not choose Italy but I think if you have the Polynesians, Celts, Maya and Greeks you can't argue the lack of unification as a bar very effectively, the presence of USA and Sweden defeat an antiquity argument, The presence of the Huns and Siam seem to fly in the face of a longevity argument.
really, the best argument is the diversity argument, but I frankly feel that Sweden and Poland smite that argument. If you wanted to really pursue out of Europe as a priority I think you would have only included Portugal and then developed other areas. But with Poland in play (and no scenario requiring its presence) it tells me there is no impetus to avoid Europe for the sake of the rest of the world, even if Europe is overrepresented.
Florence or Milan are a better choice then Rome anyway. Rome only became capitol in 1871 and it wasn't even the centre of Italian culture.
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I don't think the Uffuzi means anything one way or another with regards to the likelyhood of Italy or any variation thereof being in BNW.
Bonci
King
Not to mention that Florence actually was capital of the italian kingdom for like seven years!
This is true. But there still are 3 things in favor of Italy (Scenario, Trade, Great Works).
ehecatzin
Emperor
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TBH, I'd rather like that they develop CS further to be more unique, like having their own UU's and UB depending on type and culture. And in the middle to late game start to form "leagues" of neighbooring CS.
It would make the game more interesting, and give CS's a sense of progression, which they lack right now. Tie that with the coming trade routes and ideologies, and you could come up with lots of interesting scenarios, as well as making spying more important.
It would make the game more interesting, and give CS's a sense of progression, which they lack right now. Tie that with the coming trade routes and ideologies, and you could come up with lots of interesting scenarios, as well as making spying more important.
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Really, I don't think they will have more than token representation in the Africa scenario. They managed to take over Libya and had issues with Ethiopia. That's the extent of their involvement.
Bonci
King
People are arguing about the inclusion of Belgium only because of the scenario...
Italy also had Eritrea and Somalia XD In addition it contended north africa with UK and France...altough it was not succesful.
Italy also had Eritrea and Somalia XD In addition it contended north africa with UK and France...altough it was not succesful.
Yeah everything except Italy. What's up with that?
They should add Belgium and Hungary as well.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
There are certainly difficulties with an Italian civilization. The Rome thing is not a small deal. For starters, Firaxis has a fairly consistent rule of preferring the modern capital when using a now united Nation-State with a past history (Germany and India are other examples). Second, Firaxis tends to be fairly consistent in using the English name when widely known (so Roma wouldn't work). Third, although skipping Rome is a possibility (Florence was equally important in the Renaissance and was the capital of modern Rome), Italy without Rome is just incomplete (hence why they wanted to take Rome from the Pope and make it the capital) and an Italy that is based on Renaissance Italy would definitely lack something without Rome.
In addition, while there are thoughts of Renaissance Italy, it would also evoke modern Italy, which is less impressive (Amo l'Italia, ma è vero
). Also, you're depriving quite a few logical City-States that would have to be replaced (Florence, Venice, Milan, Genoa, Vatican City) and even other candidates who could be added.
I much prefer Venice. It's a much "cleaner" candidate that doesn't have nearly the same difficulties.
In addition, while there are thoughts of Renaissance Italy, it would also evoke modern Italy, which is less impressive (Amo l'Italia, ma è vero
). Also, you're depriving quite a few logical City-States that would have to be replaced (Florence, Venice, Milan, Genoa, Vatican City) and even other candidates who could be added.I much prefer Venice. It's a much "cleaner" candidate that doesn't have nearly the same difficulties.
Il Corvo Bianco
Warlord
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There are certainly difficulties with an Italian civilization. The Rome thing is not a small deal. For starters, Firaxis has a fairly consistent rule of preferring the modern capital when using a now united Nation-State with a past history (Germany and India are other examples). Second, Firaxis tends to be fairly consistent in using the English name when widely known (so Roma wouldn't work). Third, although skipping Rome is a possibility (Florence was equally important in the Renaissance and was the capital of modern Rome), Italy without Rome is just incomplete (hence why they wanted to take Rome from the Pope and make it the capital) and an Italy that is based on Renaissance Italy would definitely lack something without Rome.
In addition, while there are thoughts of Renaissance Italy, it would also evoke modern Italy, which is less impressive (Amo l'Italia, ma è vero
I much prefer Venice. It's a much "cleaner" candidate that doesn't have nearly the same difficulties.
The "less impressive-ness" of modern Italy is mostly legend, though (sono il primo critico dell'Italia, ma è vero.
) - Sardinia-Piedmont was referred to as the Prussia of Italy and got a fair share of praise during the Crimean War, and Italy as an united nation got a wobbly record that is not fully in the red (one defeat, in WWII, mostly caused by the population revolting against the Axis government, and one against a nation that had modernized with no one actually caring to notice). I have seen much worse. And yes, this is not accounting for early Modern history. The problem with Rome IS quite cumbersome, though, yes.I think it'd be better to leave Italy and its city-states for other Civs,as they are very well represented with so many city-states . Actually,this applies for any other European Civ,now that more than 1/3 of all civilizations are from there .
Il Corvo Bianco
Warlord
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Wouldn't Germany be well represented in the same way, though? A really short unitary history, preceded by literally hundreds of so-called "city-states".
Why does everybody think the Holy Roman Empire was always fractured.
It only turned into fractured duchies fighting each other during the late middle-ages.
For most of it's medieval history Germany was more unified then France.
Sorry for going off topic.
It only turned into fractured duchies fighting each other during the late middle-ages.
For most of it's medieval history Germany was more unified then France.
Sorry for going off topic.
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