How to compete early in science with Liberty tree?

Bliss

Warlord
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Dec 28, 2012
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In theory, liberty would delay my population, with it being compensated by the long term. That said, I should rely more on developing cities quickly, building yields buildings that can make them more effective. But, at same time, not being able to focus on food too much (unhapiness and fast/big expansion). Right?

But then I start to think about how dependant on population science buildings are, and even a minor satisfying growth rate depends on food resources, limiting your city placement. In this scenario, trade routes appear as a balancing factor for the lack of science, but not so efficient, because you'll be trading food caravans for gold ones.

So, in short, how to make liberty worth in science?

:crazyeye:
 
The tree itself or a certain playstyle? If I want similar results out of a NC high pop. capital, I just keep an extra luxury or two purely for the capital's growth. Not quite as good as Monarchy, of course, but it is enough.

For me, Tradition vs. Liberty has the same focus on the capital, which is big and powerful. The difference is in the secondary cities, where I add on 2 or 3 with Tradition and boost the pop. Or in Liberty's case, spread cities as far as I can without overly impacting capital growth.
 
Science/Liberty suggests a Wide Strategy. Try to found no more than 6 Cities. Get the National College ASAP and Oxford. Social Policy Order Recommended : Open Tradition, Open Liberty, Complete Liberty (Score Great Scientist), Open Aesthetics, Work in Aesthetics until Opening Rationalism, Complete Rationalism and go for Autocracy Ideology for double speed spies.
 
Science/Liberty suggests a Wide Strategy. Try to found no more than 6 Cities. Get the National College ASAP and Oxford. Social Policy Order Recommended : Open Tradition, Open Liberty, Complete Liberty (Score Great Scientist), Open Aesthetics, Work in Aesthetics until Opening Rationalism, Complete Rationalism and go for Autocracy Ideology for double speed spies.
That is, imo, a whole lot of wasted policies. Opening Tradition is generally not worth it just for the culture if you intend to develop Liberty, it may give you policy 2 and 3 faster, but as soon as policy 5 or 6 you will get them slower if you open Tradition before going into Liberty instead of just opening Liberty straight. If you want to do a coupled Tradition/Liberty opening you should generally finish Tradition asap. before going deep into Liberty (might be worthwhile to take left side of Liberty for the free Settler before completing Tradition however).

Opening Aesthetics ... wth. would he want to open and develop Aesthetics, unless perhaps he specifically aims for a cultural victory? If you want to splurge out policies before coming to Rationalism, just about any other pick that Aesthetics will serve you better imo. Piety will help you found a religion and will give you more faith for great people in late game. Patronage will allow you to build Forbidden Palace (which is ace when going wide because it not only secures you proposal right in WC for some time but also give you a significant happiness boost), and the extra influence with city states never hurts. Commerce will give you a gold boost to help you rush-buy buildings in satelite cities. Exploration will give you massive production boost if you have coastal cities and also happiness to help fuel further cities. Honor ... well, Honor might be as bad as Aesthetics ...

Anyway, that's just my 5 cents. As for OP question, from what I feel Liberty/wide strategies will generally leave you struggling in science until you unlock Order and gets a massive happiness boost and can let growth run loose. Happiness is generally the constraining factor when going wide imo. so that's the main focus, like you say, if you have happiness cities will grow and that will give science. Religion can be a huge help in securing happiness, if you manage to grab good beliefs like Pagodas (2 happiness per city), Religious Centers (2 happiness per city), Ceremonial Burial (½ happiness from any city following your religion), etc. that can help you a lot.
 
That is, imo, a whole lot of wasted policies. Opening Tradition is generally not worth it just for the culture if you intend to develop Liberty, it may give you policy 2 and 3 faster, but as soon as policy 5 or 6 you will get them slower if you open Tradition before going into Liberty instead of just opening Liberty straight.

90% of the time I open tradition first when I go Liberty. I cannot stand the slow border growth, and it saves me many hundreds of gold in tile buys.
 
Good religion helps going wide before Ideologies. But it is still slow going, because you need the faith and happiness buildings to settle additional cities, which takes time. I can typically get 6-8 cities pre-Order comfortably on a standard Pangaea and still have enough happiness to keep capital at a decent population. And really, after Ideologies I find it difficult to justify settling much more than that anyway, although it isn't too bad if you can send a few food and hammer routes to each new city you settle. Allows you to bust out buildings and get to a decent size quickly. And besides, that late into the game your capital doesn't need it as much.
 
90% of the time I open tradition first when I go Liberty. I cannot stand the slow border growth, and it saves me many hundreds of gold in tile buys.
From a strategic pov. I'm pretty sure that just buying the tiles that matter, going straight through Liberty and then picking Commerce opener will give you a much better gold difference in the long run, and your end time of Liberty should be about the same, but to each their own.

... And really, after Ideologies I find it difficult to justify settling much more than that anyway ...
And that is exactly the core of the wide/tall problem.
 
That is, imo, a whole lot of wasted policies. Opening Tradition is generally not worth it just for the culture if you intend to develop Liberty, it may give you policy 2 and 3 faster, but as soon as policy 5 or 6 you will get them slower if you open Tradition before going into Liberty instead of just opening Liberty straight. If you want to do a coupled Tradition/Liberty opening you should generally finish Tradition asap. before going deep into Liberty (might be worthwhile to take left side of Liberty for the free Settler before completing Tradition however).

Opening Aesthetics ... wth. would he want to open and develop Aesthetics, unless perhaps he specifically aims for a cultural victory? If you want to splurge out policies before coming to Rationalism, just about any other pick that Aesthetics will serve you better imo. Piety will help you found a religion and will give you more faith for great people in late game. Patronage will allow you to build Forbidden Palace (which is ace when going wide because it not only secures you proposal right in WC for some time but also give you a significant happiness boost), and the extra influence with city states never hurts. Commerce will give you a gold boost to help you rush-buy buildings in satelite cities. Exploration will give you massive production boost if you have coastal cities and also happiness to help fuel further cities. Honor ... well, Honor might be as bad as Aesthetics ...

Anyway, that's just my 5 cents. As for OP question, from what I feel Liberty/wide strategies will generally leave you struggling in science until you unlock Order and gets a massive happiness boost and can let growth run loose. Happiness is generally the constraining factor when going wide imo. so that's the main focus, like you say, if you have happiness cities will grow and that will give science. Religion can be a huge help in securing happiness, if you manage to grab good beliefs like Pagodas (2 happiness per city), Religious Centers (2 happiness per city), Ceremonial Burial (½ happiness from any city following your religion), etc. that can help you a lot.

As another poster mentioned, your Culture/Turn suffers too much with a Liberty Open in the early game. As to Completing Tradition before opening Liberty, that is really going Tall and pretending you are going Wide. Liberty Opens should be about Speed Settling faster than the AI so finishing Tradition is way too slow, particularly at higher difficulty levels.

Aesthetics can be Opened to speed Great Writer production. Then you can speed through Social Policies with Political Treatise. Religion is an overrated mechanic when going for the Science Victory (except Jesuit Education.) By keeping Social Policies to One Tradition, Full Liberty, Aesthetics(Fine Arts) + Aesthetics(Cultural Centers) + Aesthetics(Flourishing of the Arts) + Full Rationalism you can gain Social Policies much faster.

This is an atypical strategy I am only now experimenting with after over almost 2000 hours of play under my belt though, so it may have some problems admittedly.
 
Start tall until you get national college and then expand all over the place as much as you possibly can. You'll make more gpt when you get your cities connected with trade routes quicker since liberty has that cheaper worker and faster worker social policy.
 
The sad truth about Civ BNW final release is that game balance is extremely shifted towards peaceful tall empires (few large cities). Therefore you should always go for tradition and think about other policies only when that tree is completed. I cannot imagine an immortal/deity game with an opener other than tradition.

Furthermore, liberty should be only considered if you will be able to have a strong religion. You will need some bonus happiness per city. It's an absolute must. If you are able to have your religion very soon, go for pagodas. If not, go for happiness from temples. If both of these options are gone, keep going for happiness, ie. shrines or mosques. Underestimated cathedrals are surprisingly good for wide empires because they allow to store artifacts without bothering with both opera houses and museums for a very long time.

Start with tradition and if you can, finish it (you "cannot" finish tradition if you lack happiness to make an actual use of its finisher). Then go for some religion and liberty. You want cheaper religious buildings and reduced culture cost for social policies asap. Never finish liberty tree because it's simply not worth it. +1 happiness for connected cities can wait and bonus for settlers is a complete waste of resources. You've started with tradition so your capital is capable of spawning a settler or two every now and then. Buying them is also a good idea. You also don't need to finish piety, certainly not in early eras. Gold bonus for temples and great prophets' improvements has better alternatives and the only really useful reformation belief (worth spending a policy) is jesuit education. Unfortunately, the belief tends to be claimed quicker than a nubile cleric in catholic seminary, so it's just one another circumstantial factor.

The rule of the thumb for me in case of wide games is that I go for it only if I can secure pagodas or both bonuses for temples from my religion. That's because you must compensate for science and culture penalty for building additional cities.

If you really want to go for it, make sure to beeline radio. You can even bulb a scientist to get it earlier. The moment you start order, all your problems with happiness will be gone since this path will offer you almost instantly a total of +5 pretty much free happiness (+2 monuments, +2 factories and workshops, +1 universities) per city. This bonus will be increasing with time.



There's an alternative for religion, though. One of honor policies (I never remember names of any of them; I just click on the icon) offers +1 happiness and +2 culture for a unit stationed in city. If you couple it with free garrisoned units from tradition, you have an extremely cheap "building" with great yields that can be "build" the moment a city is established. Culture bonus from honor vs barbarians will help with early policies, though it's completely negligible since medieval era.

It's pretty obvious that wide strategies should be attempted only with religious civs, or my personal favorite, Poland.

Edit:
One more thing, a little remark directed at DarkestOnion's approach.
In GnK, you wanted to settle every tiniest speck of land before AI could manage to do so. In BNW, even when going as wide as possible, you will never want to settle the worst pieces of land. Science penalty is just too big. And what is usually more important in earlier game, luxury resources tend to be clustered. Large network of cities in early-mid game in GnK meant that you have a lot of luxury resources while in BNW usually means that you have a lot of copies of a few luxuries. It's a must to settle valuable spots, deny your opponents strategic location, but still remain rational with settlement policy. There's also the new-found importance of seas and oceans. In GnK, i hardly ever had naval cities, while in BNW I tend to pick worse but naval locations. Naval trade routes are simply too good to give them up. Also, consumption of early writers is usually a huge no-no for me because there are many turns ahead of you and by using your early writer this way you are giving up on 3 things:
1) border growth;
2) ongoing, cumulative culture bonus that will soon be higher than the immediate bonus;
3) tourism.
I tend to torment opponents in multiplayer with my tourism, even when I'm not aiming for cultural victory. Thy just neglect this aspects of the game and end up as my puppets. They follow your ideology because they have no other option, and you promote some other ideology to be the world ideology. You get diplo bonuses, your opponents are severely hurt, and the penalty you get yourself is negligible :)
 
Use your free worker and GAge to knock out GLib. Get Philosophy, build Shrine then NC. Oracle your free Settler, settle a load of desert hills and use your free GE to nab Petra. If you didn't miss out on Desert Folklore, you're pretty much sorted. It's a gambit with a difficulty cap, but it's killer when it works.
 
So, in short, how to make liberty worth in science?

You can use Liberty for SV. But you'll never ever be as fast as with Tradition.

It's a snowball effect. You need to build aqueduct (100 hammers each), so you need to tech enginerring before Education (105 beakers for Construction and 175 for Engineering), so you miss 2 to 3 pop before Education (tech Engineering and building aqueducts), so you can't fits writer's guild and universities slots. So you reach Renaissance later and open Rationalism later. And because you didn't end Tradition, you're cities don't growth 15% faster.
So you're always late relative to tradition.
And your free academie with Liberty finisher can't fill in this gap.
 
The sad truth about Civ BNW final release is that game balance is extremely shifted towards peaceful tall empires (few large cities). Therefore you should always go for tradition and think about other policies only when that tree is completed. I cannot imagine an immortal/deity game with an opener other than tradition.

Furthermore, liberty should be only considered if you will be able to have a strong religion. You will need some bonus happiness per city. It's an absolute must. If you are able to have your religion very soon, go for pagodas. If not, go for happiness from temples. If both of these options are gone, keep going for happiness, ie. shrines or mosques. Underestimated cathedrals are surprisingly good for wide empires because they allow to store artifacts without bothering with both opera houses and museums for a very long time.

Start with tradition and if you can, finish it (you "cannot" finish tradition if you lack happiness to make an actual use of its finisher). Then go for some religion and liberty. You want cheaper religious buildings and reduced culture cost for social policies asap. Never finish liberty tree because it's simply not worth it. +1 happiness for connected cities can wait and bonus for settlers is a complete waste of resources. You've started with tradition so your capital is capable of spawning a settler or two every now and then. Buying them is also a good idea. You also don't need to finish piety, certainly not in early eras. Gold bonus for temples and great prophets' improvements has better alternatives and the only really useful reformation belief (worth spending a policy) is jesuit education. Unfortunately, the belief tends to be claimed quicker than a nubile cleric in catholic seminary, so it's just one another circumstantial factor.

The rule of the thumb for me in case of wide games is that I go for it only if I can secure pagodas or both bonuses for temples from my religion. That's because you must compensate for science and culture penalty for building additional cities.

If you really want to go for it, make sure to beeline radio. You can even bulb a scientist to get it earlier. The moment you start order, all your problems with happiness will be gone since this path will offer you almost instantly a total of +5 pretty much free happiness (+2 monuments, +2 factories and workshops, +1 universities) per city. This bonus will be increasing with time.



There's an alternative for religion, though. One of honor policies (I never remember names of any of them; I just click on the icon) offers +1 happiness and +2 culture for a unit stationed in city. If you couple it with free garrisoned units from tradition, you have an extremely cheap "building" with great yields that can be "build" the moment a city is established. Culture bonus from honor vs barbarians will help with early policies, though it's completely negligible since medieval era.

It's pretty obvious that wide strategies should be attempted only with religious civs, or my personal favorite, Poland.

Edit:
One more thing, a little remark directed at DarkestOnion's approach.
In GnK, you wanted to settle every tiniest speck of land before AI could manage to do so. In BNW, even when going as wide as possible, you will never want to settle the worst pieces of land. Science penalty is just too big. And what is usually more important in earlier game, luxury resources tend to be clustered. Large network of cities in early-mid game in GnK meant that you have a lot of luxury resources while in BNW usually means that you have a lot of copies of a few luxuries. It's a must to settle valuable spots, deny your opponents strategic location, but still remain rational with settlement policy. There's also the new-found importance of seas and oceans. In GnK, i hardly ever had naval cities, while in BNW I tend to pick worse but naval locations. Naval trade routes are simply too good to give them up. Also, consumption of early writers is usually a huge no-no for me because there are many turns ahead of you and by using your early writer this way you are giving up on 3 things:
1) border growth;
2) ongoing, cumulative culture bonus that will soon be higher than the immediate bonus;
3) tourism.
I tend to torment opponents in multiplayer with my tourism, even when I'm not aiming for cultural victory. Thy just neglect this aspects of the game and end up as my puppets. They follow your ideology because they have no other option, and you promote some other ideology to be the world ideology. You get diplo bonuses, your opponents are severely hurt, and the penalty you get yourself is negligible :)

Woah. Thanks for the PhD answer. :worship:

I'll try all the strategies shared here.

Thank you all guys. =)
 
You also don't need to finish piety, certainly not in early eras. (...) the only really useful reformation belief (worth spending a policy) is jesuit education. Unfortunately, the belief tends to be claimed quicker than a nubile cleric in catholic seminary, so it's just one another circumstantial factor.
I think your post is excellent advice on just about every detail according to my own experience. I would like to add one thing though, which is that on lower difficulties at least (up to Emperor) you can succesfully pull off a Liberty start without Tradtion and instead go for reformation belief "To The Glory Of God" which allows you to purchase any great person with faith. If you have a super-wide empire with Piety it's not too difficult to have massive FPT (as in 150-200 FPT or more, Shrines and Temples alone will net you 5 faith per city, and then on top of that religious buildings, pantheon yields etc.). Unlike Jesuit Education, AI never takes To The Glory Of God, which means you don't have to rush it, and TTGOG will allow you to buy Great Engineers in spite of not having finished Tradition and buying Great Scientists even if you have not finished Rationalism. I also tend to take a couple of Great Writers to grab some free social policies, which works particularly well if you have postponed World's Fair until after Industrial era starts (and one of the few benefits of a wide civ is generally that your production completely trumps that of tall civs, so you will win the world projects). Only downside to this is you have to trot through some absolutely horrible Piety policies (Religious Tolerance, ugh! :cry:).
 
More city is more science in the early game. Plant as many cities as space. Make sure each city has a lux. Do not delay expansion. You want to claim space to make liberty worthwhile and you want all your cities to start developing infrastructure to compete in late game.
To keep up science in mid game, you need to grow grow grow. That means happiness. You need a strong religion with happiness and/or maintain lux/lux trades throughout the game and/or ally mercantile city states. Strongly recommend patronage. Try to get forbidden palace. Happiness IS science.
Late game liberty is all about GS generation. More cities = more GS. Bulb your way to victory!
 
Liberty is for 6+ cities IMO, if you plant less then Tradition will yield better results. To answer the OP question yes early science will suffer if you plant more than 3 cities IMO. In saying that if you want a fast SV you want 6 cities at least and that means completing Liberty. More cities = more science = bigger GS bulbs.
 
Go liberty with Maya plus piety opener, take a GS from completing Liberty, and use the +2 science per trade route pantheon, then rex rex rex rex.
 
Ok, so I've been using Liberty ALOT lately. I notice this, you sacrifice early science for quicker settlers and a free and very necessary worker, a golden age and a free GP. These little early benefits are insanely substantial, especially when it comes to city placement and planting a GS or using a GE. Whenever I go Liberty I still only hard build about 2-3 settlers and use my free one. Liberty doesn't mean 6+ cities (early game). Early benefits vs early science. My last SV was with a Liberty opening and I got it by 1960. Not crazy fast but it was fairly easy.
P.S What is considered a quick SV? Whenever I have crazy science I usually win DomV or DV
 
From a strategic pov. I'm pretty sure that just buying the tiles that matter, going straight through Liberty and then picking Commerce opener will give you a much better gold difference in the long run, and your end time of Liberty should be about the same, but to each their own.

I don't know, I buy a lot of tiles without tradition, and the early game is when gold is lacking. By the time I put one in commerce, I usually have sufficient income. If I buy 2 tiles per city and put down 6, that's around 750 gold, depending on costs. I think it's worth it for how I play.

Sometimes I end up buying tiles because the logic that picks them is brain dead. Thanks for picking the plains tile over the 4th ring new luxury.
 
I don't know, I buy a lot of tiles without tradition, and the early game is when gold is lacking.
Like I said, individual style can obviously cater to different approaches. If you buy a lot of tiles very early [when you don't go Tradition] maybe that means you should indeed stick to operning Tradition. But maybe you don't really need to buy all those tiles? I play Liberty fairly often (albeit with mods, but that doesn't affect this particular area), and I generally don't feel I need to buy that many tiles early game.
 
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