Hunter/Gathering Nomadic start at Game Open project

Recently I got some ideas about nomadic civilizations. My idea is that there are three types of civs: nomadic, which everyone is at gamestart, rural and urban. But this is ofcourse not an all or nothing proposition. Instead the kind of society you are is determined by which kind of terrain you inhabit and what kind of improvements you build. Camps and pastures give nomadic points, farms and orchards give rural points, mines and quarries give urban points e.t.c.

I don't think it's necessary to program cities that can move. The c2c game features already in place are sufficient for my ideas. So you get these points and with these points you get auto-building nomad/rural/urban center depending on what points you've got the most from in the city. And this autobuilding determines what you can and cannot build in the city. And with time, tech, improvements and city buildings your "city" can progress either to a more advanced form of nomad/rural/urban or switch between them. The general direction being towards urban.

Urban focus ofcourse is generating more trade and industry while rural focus gives bonus to agriculture and defensive structures like forts and nomad focus gives military advantage to cavalry and bonuses to camps and pastures. And what determines your overall focus is your capital. So if you're a nomad civ wishing to get all the benefits of the more classical defenition of "civilization" then it might be easiest to simply invade someone and move your capital.

So why not just move your capital to one of your own cities that displays the correct type.

Interesting ideas. I was thinking of basing the city initial free buildings on what was near the city plot with you being able to choose what type of city when you got the City Planning tech.

stoferb said:

I don't think it's necessary to program cities that can move.

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For me, it s the point of "Nomadic start"...

Missed this topic; I really really like the concept described a few pages above of moving city/cities that gather depleting resources around them

for Noriad and other people that might be interested.

I wish this really worked. . .

I could not find the nomadic demo thread

A number of things need to change before we can even contemplate a Nomadic Start to the game.
See the Nomadic Start Demo for how this might work. Note the demo on the SVN is currently not working.

When we do get nomadic start working it would be nice if we can also cater for nomadic civilizations such as Genghis Khan's mob.

Current suggestions for lifestyle choices

• wandering
  Only one type of player unit - the band (or other name). When the population of the band gets too big it splits into two or more bands.
  
  Bands with to few population must find another band to merge with or die out.
  
  Screen shows how many people (individuals) in the band, what they are doing and what they have.
  
  Meetings between bands need to include non-combat functions like trading preoperty and inter marriage.​
• migratory (technologies oral tradition and seasonality)
  main unit is now families may be able to support a few recon/hunter units.
  
  Follow a set annual path. This is their cultural lands. Only claim as much as need to support the band. The unit is considered to be everywhere in this area gathering resources etc. Probably just two good plots next to each other or maybe the "line" of plots between two good food resources.​
• nomadic - follow the wild herds
• nomadic - pastoral (animal domestication)
• settled - pastoral (animal domestication and sedentary lifestyle)
• settled - agricultural (agriculture)
• settled - urban (industrialization)

This leads into why I want to get rid of the domestication technologies except canine and animal, but that is for a later post.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

1) the game should not end when the last human player can't settle a city.

Nomadic units will initially not be able to settle so currently the game ends before it starts.

The test needs to be something a bit more general something like "A player is dead if they don't have any cities, any units that can build a city next turn or have no units that may eventually be upgraded to units that can build a city"​

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True. That will be important. Easy but important. My thinking involves setting up numerous new factors specifically for nomadic units.

2) The interface needs to change. Currently you have a screen with the map where you can move units around and a screen where you can tell an individual city what to do. It looks like we can have more build screens like the city screen but different. One difficulty is how we get from the map screen into these new build screens.

The problem is that both screens are in a single module of more than 7,000 lines of python.

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I'm a little curious why we would NEED this. We can use mission setups to purchase builds and techs. Somewhat like the demo. The difference between nomadic unit and city would thus largely be a matter of accumulating THEN spending rather than making build and research selections then accumulating into those selections. Training units, planting an improvement that would later be represented as a building when the city culture encompasses a plot with the improvement on it (Berries, mushrooms for example), taking on a new trait that would represent a building once the unit settles, all would take production that's been collected and could be selected by the nomadic unit once it qualifies to do so. Or the selection could be suspended for a bit while even more production is accumulated.

Techs would be purchased in a similar manner. However, I envision capacity limits to hoarding production, food, commerce (research) that could be expanded on by certain purchases as well.

Since food could be spent on units and on expanding the mini-population counter of the nomadic unit (which was the whole reason I developed size matters), population expansion would also be selectable in this manner - but a lot of food could be wasted on accumulation limits if it's not taken advantage of when you can.

Either that or food could PUSH pop growth whether you want it or not and certain techs and other improvements would be necessary to keep from having your population splinter off into new player entities.

In this vision, I don't see the necessity for an additional screen. Although a unit data screen popup WOULD be nice.

3) Science can only be produced in cities. The Nomadic Start Demo did have units generating "lore" which could be converted into .

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I don't feel we need 'lore'. I think we can work with the commerce of the plot and have the nomadic units accumulate and collect that commerce in plots they travel through.

When we do get nomadic start working it would be nice if we can also cater for nomadic civilizations such as Genghis Khan's mob.

Current suggestions for lifestyle choices

• wandering
  Only one type of player unit - the band (or other name). When the population of the band gets too big it splits into two or more bands.
  
  Bands with to few population must find another band to merge with or die out.
  
  Screen shows how many people (individuals) in the band, what they are doing and what they have.
  
  Meetings between bands need to include non-combat functions like trading preoperty and inter marriage.​
• migratory (technologies oral tradition and seasonality)
  main unit is now families may be able to support a few recon/hunter units.
  
  Follow a set annual path. This is their cultural lands. Only claim as much as need to support the band. The unit is considered to be everywhere in this area gathering resources etc. Probably just two good plots next to each other or maybe the "line" of plots between two good food resources.​
• nomadic - follow the wild herds
• nomadic - pastoral (animal domestication)
• settled - pastoral (animal domestication and sedentary lifestyle)
• settled - agricultural (agriculture)
• settled - urban (industrialization)

This leads into why I want to get rid of the domestication technologies except canine and animal, but that is for a later post.

Click to expand...

A lot of that is some very interesting stuff.

I want to get the basics done first and it's truly a project that's been bugging me in the back of my mind for a while now. There just keeps being a lot of things ahead of it so as to help set it up is the main thing. But I HAVE been thinking of getting a prototype option setup taken care of very soon.

Currently being discussed at length in general discussion thread...

My vision as notes not as considered arguments (I don't have the time what with all these Dr tests and classes on getting healthy).

• You will only have one unit (the Tribe) until you get Gathering and Cooperation (I may be using the old tech tree here). The first because you wont have enough excess to support other units and the second because you will want them to cooperate with the tribe.
• The tribe gathers much less than is available to them
• Units (not Tribes or Hunters) have a food and culture cost to maintain. Basically the food cost is the same as an individual in the tribe but the unit can't gather. There is a further cost based on distance from Tribal Lands. Dog Domestication, Falconry and some other techs will reduce and maybe remove the food cost.
• It takes one turn to turn an Adult into a unit but that is all they can do that turn.
  
  
• Tribal Lands are what are currently cultural borders.
• No , or at start. These become available as the game progresses eg comes in at Barter (as do trade routes but they require a special improvement).
• No disease until you have a herd (or permanent or semi-permanent settlement) but contagions from other tribes can occur.
• No crime until you have a semi-permanent or permanent settlement.
  
  
• No Goody Huts or Islands until Tribalism. No Barbarian Cities until Sedentary Lifestyle although there may be Barbarian Camps (spawns barbarian units only), Barbarian Encampments (basically another tribe, may be friendly).
• Until you have Tribalism any Tribes you build become barbarian but very friendly Tribes. They will go out into the world and will
  • die (may leave some remains to explore = goody hut that gives or map or possible a Survivor or three which can be joined to your tribe)
  • become a Goody Hut if you have Tribalism
  • become another Tribe that builds and claims land. Will join your Nation at Tribalism if you give them a gift. Note: giving gifts to Tribes formed from other Nations may make them inclined to join you rather than the other Nation.
• Your initial tribe can wander anywhere until you put down your first Seasonal Camp. After which it can't go far from your Tribal Lands.
• When you build a Seasonal Camp (on a food resource or on the Coast next to a water resource) The plot becomes part of your Tribal Lands. (The water resource plot(s) also become part of your Tribal Lands).
  
  
• Movement in Tribal Lands (land only) is very fast to simulate the fact that you may be anywhere in those lands at the time the threat happens.
• Plots can be claimed as Tribal Lands if they are not someone else's Tribal Lands and they are next to existing Tribal Lands. Cost culture points. The cost depends on the number of neighbouring plots that are yours (decreases cost) and the number that belong to someone else (increases cost).
• Tribalism is equivalent to Fission - Fusion Migration. It is the time where multiple tribes consider themselves one tribe. It allows special improvements
  • Meeting Place - this is place where all the tribes get together to survive the winter or just to meet and organize marriages etc.
  • Burial Place (or a place to lay the dead to rest...) also requires Ceremonial Burial can upgrade to a number of wonders eg Stonehenge
  • Holy Place
  • Semi-permanent Hamlet. A number of people live here all year round fed by the tribes in exchange they provide the non-food resource to all the tribes. This is like a city but can not gather/build . They can yield and build buildings that complement the resources available to the plot. Eg a Hamlet on the Stone resource may build Stone tools Workshop, Flint quarry etc.
• No city (population) specialists exist until Specialization. The default one from extras is only a gatherer and provides only.
  
  
• Many buildings are jobs that are assigned. Some buildings are automatic promotions on the Tribe and or Adults eg Berry Bushes gives a +1 forage on the Tribe and each Adult doing gathering

.OK I've run out of time...

• No loose or stacks of barbarian units until someone gets Canine Domestication. Same for Neanderthals. Exception is the Tribe unit.
• Combat
  • If it is two Tribal units then combat is just show and bluster. Each adult has the strength of the base warrior of the time. The weaker one backs down retreating from the plot. If the plot can be owned by the winner, ie is next to their Tribal Lands then it becomes theirs otherwise it goes neutral. Note: if the sizes of the two tribes allows it they may join together instead. Tribes that are very friendly towards you will back down if the plot does not belong to them.
  • if it is non-Tribe units then combat can be to first blood (most likely) with the least wounded winning.
  • taking captives at this point means joining the individual to the Tribal unit.

@DH: Some of your ideas and mine agree and some don't and rather than arguing, perhaps we can help each become its own alternative option. If I were to setup an option for you and Bill and I were to work out how to make some data conditionally declared on units, I would be happy to help you see your vision come to pass as well as my own. Between both we could get perhaps enough feedback and experiences to find what works and what doesn't among what we both have in mind.

It is already possible to have things optional in a game based on the Game Options chosen. The only problem is that the XML is loaded before the options are chosen. This can easily be fixed by requiring the game to restart. It is already done with a couple of the Civ IV options so it is not even new. Changing those game options that require a reload may or may not break the game so we would need to disable changing to those options via World Builder. It can be handled and we should probably already be using it just to get all those promotions etc from Commanders and Size Matters out of the pedia if you aren't using them.

Thunderbrd said:

I didn't have a lot of time earlier to discuss this so made a more generic statement I hoped might convey some of my thoughts in a more condensed manner. Now that I have a bit of time:

1) I think it would be micromanagement hell to be defining every role in the tribe. I'd prefer to not have to think about the accounting of how many are children, how many are women etc... and would think it would be more pleasant gameplay to allow a lot of that to be beneath the resolution of detail that needs to be considered. Yeah, it would give more options, but it would also give a lot more demand to track each and every person and at the point that the tribe becomes a city, that resolution of interaction would be lost and would be a bit jarring. Besides that, it begs for huge adaptations to AI to go that route, basically an entire game's worth of new features to work with... *shudder*. I'd much rather see us do something that works a bit more simply at first and if we want to start digging deeper into further depth, fine, but we've gotta do this in steps away from the game we basically have. If we make too many new dynamics with this then it will quickly become an unviable project so we really have to be thinking in much more minimalist terms as modders here to adjust the game but not trying to write an entirely new one. Determining how many people are basket makers would be getting far too into the weeds of complexity imo.

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And I don’t think it will be . However it may allow those how want to “micro” manage the ability to do so. Since we don’t have any examples yet I think it is to premature to reach a conclusion one way or the other. Also it is often to initially design for the most complex and then simplify rather than starting simple and realise you have missed some important component and need to retro fit it in.

It has to step away from the game we currently have at least a little or what is the point in doing it? In later eras we need multi-maps which is a radical departure from what we have now. Why not something not tried elsewhere at the start?

The only distinctions in individuals is Adult, Adult with Infants and Children. Teenagers are another concept that is probably needed. It is covered by the Golden Age concept for most periods but probably needs to be a bit more explicit in the post modern eras. The decision of when to have Children or not is almost an as important decision as to when to build a wonder.

I actually expect the transition from starting tribe to city to be much more gradual going through a number of transitions. The first few are to do with the variations due to the changing nature of the nomadic paradigm being used. There are usually these types of nomadic “culture” described in the literature


Both fission/fusion and pastoralism allow for semi-permanent settlements. We would represent these as mini-cities. They are about providing a particular resource and the things derived from it eg salt. They are fed by the other tribes in the nation.

What I want here is real choices about what you do. In the current game it has become the case that there is only one way to do things and that is becoming boring. Growing your population first is a valid mechanism in BtS but C2C does everything to make that road to success impossible.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

It is already possible to have things optional in a game based on the Game Options chosen. The only problem is that the XML is loaded before the options are chosen. This can easily be fixed by requiring the game to restart. It is already done with a couple of the Civ IV options so it is not even new. Changing those game options that require a reload may or may not break the game so we would need to disable changing to those options via World Builder. It can be handled and we should probably already be using it just to get all those promotions etc from Commanders and Size Matters out of the pedia if you aren't using them.

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Game options, at least doing it right, requires establishing the option on the enums list in the dll. So setting it up there rather than relying on the xml alone is eventually a good idea.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Also it is often to initially design for the most complex and then simplify rather than starting simple and realise you have missed some important component and need to retro fit it in.

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Gotta disagree there. Why waste time on a design that's going to be discarded? IMO, build up and add levels as you go rather than building a multistory building only to tear out some levels afterwards.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

It has to step away from the game we currently have at least a little or what is the point in doing it? In later eras we need multi-maps which is a radical departure from what we have now. Why not something not tried elsewhere at the start?

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Theoretically? So that players can play a very different style of game but rely on the things they generally have come to expect they understand with as little further instruction as is possible. Let it be intuitive to pick up and go if you already know the game as it is.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Adult, Adult with Infants and Children

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What about the retirement age individuals? Are you differentiating by gender?

Dancing Hoskuld said:

The decision of when to have Children or not is almost an as important decision as to when to build a wonder.

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You're planning on making this a choice? hmm...not sure many parents would agree that it was, particularly before birth control and even moreso before sexual regulation customs.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

- follow the herds :- not possible in Civ IV because herds don’t migrate

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Very possible in Size Matters once Herds naturally spawn more units of their kind as they go. The varied population of animals is already tracked in the initial spawning of units there and my next plan in moving towards all this is to build a food collection, consumption, and population growth system for animals that would then naturally be applied to early humans as well.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

It is usually described as a group of tribes that come together as some point in the year for a season.

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I would think that while they might meet annually in RL history, we don't have turns that equal less than years so this would simply mean they need to stay close enough to one another or they have an increasing chance by distance of splitting off into their own new 'civ'. I liked your idea about some split offs becoming tribal villages though.

It is my Hope that, if this Project comes about, it will 1st be introduced as a Modmod. Then allowed to be used by players for awhile. To gauge interest and feasibility for main mod inclusion.

JosEPh_II said:

It is my Hope that, if this Project comes about, it will 1st be introduced as a Modmod. Then allowed to be used by players for awhile. To gauge interest and feasibility for main mod inclusion.

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I heard, that this one is going to be game option indefinitely, just like revolution mod or all those combat mods.

raxo2222 said:

I heard, that this one is going to be game option indefinitely, just like revolution mod or all those combat mods.

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DH and I are talking about 2 different forms of this project as well so I'm hoping both can be their own options. I know I'm designing what I have in mind to be an option, and possibly one that may require Size Matters, though I might TRY to make it not absolutely require it.

I'm happy to help DH get things established for his approach though. Much as I may disagree with some of the concepts, I could find that's just a disagreement that exists while its only conceptual. In practice, I might like what he's attempting.

Not that you need any more incentive here, but this is a feature I am incredibly excited for. Long time lurker and I created an account just to give you guys some encouragement on this as I think this will be a massively cool addition to the game. Can't wait to play this feature when it's available for testing.

I have lots of thoughts about how this could work but you guys don't need any of those right now so I'll save them for feedback once I can play with it some! Can't wait for this

The biggest problem at the moment is that I am treating this as the initial design phase whereas TB is looking at it from a very late design phase where implementation is the major concern. In the early part of design you want as many ideas as possible without thought to how it is implemented. Basically throwing ideas out there just so possibilities are not missed and synergies are identified. Leaving ideas until coding is the best way of missing stuff and making things take longer. I can give an example from work where two ten person teams had to get out similar products (computer systems) where one started coding almost straight away and the other spent (almost) 6 months arguing first.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

without thought to how it is implemented

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Here's PART of the problem - there's too much I would get lost trying to implement so if it becomes too complex a concept then it will never get done. It HAS to consider the programming challenges in the design concept.

Thunderbrd said:

Here's PART of the problem - there's too much I would get lost trying to implement so if it becomes too complex a concept then it will never get done. It HAS to consider the programming challenges in the design concept.

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Not until the end. Otherwise you stifle discussions and creativity.