I am really bummed about the lack of relationship modifiers information

V

VitalyB

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 30, 2001
Messages
18
I loved in Civ4 the fact that I could easily see the relationship between me and other civilization and what caused it to be that way. That answered a lot of answers I had on "Has that thing I did angered/pleased them?" Moreover, I could see the relations between various civilization and decide upon them who I should ally/denounce.

Now it seems all that data is gone. Aside of active pacts and such, it is impossible to know who thinks what of you and what your relations are.

Is there any data or info that helps me out there with that?
 
someone will probably mod it in.

I agree, I want to see exactly why the relationship is where it is and then I'd like to see actions that I do what impact they would have on the relationship.

So lets say I give a resource for free, before I make that choice I'd like to see a floater tooltip saying "This will greatly improve our relationship with Catherine" (+4 for as long as resource is provided, +2 permanently)
 
I think they decided it's better if we don't have that data. I disagree. I hope it can be modded in
 
Too gamey. I don't remember having "Relationship Modifiers" in real life--probably make things easier if I did. It would be nice to know if something you did mattered to them, though, if it were more vague than assigning a number to it.

I am not saying you are this way, but I've talked to many people that want the game to be as realistic as possible, but also want every single variable quantified to about ten decimal places. That ain't realistic.
 
wapamingo said:
So lets say I give a resource for free, before I make that choice I'd like to see a floater tooltip saying "This will greatly improve our relationship with Catherine" (+4 for as long as resource is provided, +2 permanently)
Click to expand...

Exactly. If I give an AI a resource trying to improve our relations, and I don't see a "+1 gifted a resource", then I have no idea if it worked, and I may do the same next game and next game.

So I can spend hundreds of games gifting a resource (or whatever other thing) for improving relations when it really isn't doing anything.

We need the data
 
I don't really want to know specifically if i am at +5 or +12, but i would like a general indication of wether or not they like me.

I suppose i can just sort of work it out for myself though, do we have a lot of trade history then we are trading buddies, do we have a lot of huistory of being allies at war, then thats what we are. etc.
 
kaltorak said:
We need the data
Click to expand...

We don't "need" the data. A bit of text thanking you, improved body posture from the leaderhead, etc., should note this. Maybe they'd mention it again the next time they talk to you.

I know we're dealing with AI here, but assigning a number to everything IMHO dehumanizes diplomacy even further.
 
Someone will have a look at the modifiers.xml or whatever it's gonna be called and make these public within days of the release.

I think Firaxis aimed for making them react similar to a human. So if you give them resources they'll think "oh, that was nice, but what does he want?", while if they ask you for help and you give it, that's gonna give you a lot more influence with them. Showing you're trustworthy also seems to be a good idea, so don't settle next to their territory, or cancel the open borders for no reason.
 
SammyKhalifa said:
We don't "need" the data. A bit of text thanking you, improved body posture from the leaderhead, etc., should note this. Maybe they'd mention it again the next time they talk to you.

I know we're dealing with AI here, but assigning a number to everything IMHO dehumanizes diplomacy even further.
Click to expand...

I'll be willing to get a textual indication as well, "Catherina likes you". "Napoleon hates your guts", etc. But having none of these seems very annoying :(
 
VitalyB said:
I'll be willing to get a textual indication as well, "Catherina likes you". "Napoleon hates your guts", etc. But having none of these seems very annoying :(
Click to expand...

Yeah. Maybe a small token (a few gold or something) at a later date "in appreciation of your friendship."
 
Did Civ or Civ2 have these? How did you play before the game turned into an excel excercise? :)
 
Did Civ or Civ2 have these? How did you play before the game turned into an excel excercise?
Click to expand...
With great frustration at the AI that appeared to act randomly and without any kind of coherent logic. Alliances were basically useless, because the AI could and would backstab you any time. Diplomacy was a fairly meaningless part of the game.

This thread has most of the relevant arguments: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376204
 
SammyKhalifa said:
Too gamey. I don't remember having "Relationship Modifiers" in real life--probably make things easier if I did. It would be nice to know if something you did mattered to them, though, if it were more vague than assigning a number to it.

I am not saying you are this way, but I've talked to many people that want the game to be as realistic as possible, but also want every single variable quantified to about ten decimal places. That ain't realistic.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's not like we'll be playing a game or anything. As everyone knows, Civ is famed for its meticulate recreation of historical realities. :rolleyes:

I want the game to be fairly realistic, but I also want it to be a game that I can enjoy and where I can command as much info as I need to run my civ. I don't see the point of taking out the modifiers.
 
Ahriman said:
With great frustration at the AI that appeared to act randomly and without any kind of coherent logic. Alliances were basically useless, because the AI could and would backstab you any time. Diplomacy was a fairly meaningless part of the game.

This thread has most of the relevant arguments: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376204
Click to expand...

The AI shouldn't be totally disjointed and irrational like in II or III. That was super annoying. However, AI Civs SHOULD be able to bluff or hide their true feelings on occasion. I hope it's progressed to this point; and if it has, then it's up to the human player to read the situation and make a judgment based on the information on hand.

Reading an opponent's actions and guessing at true intent is a skill just like math or logic.
 
The AI shouldn't be totally disjointed and irrational like in II or III. That was super annoying. However, AI Civs SHOULD be able to bluff or hide their true feelings on occasion.
Click to expand...

Please explain how the player is supposed to tell the difference.

Reading a situation and an opponent's reaction and guessing at intent is a skill just like math or logic.
Click to expand...
Please solve the following mathematical system for me:
2x + y = 7
x + 3y = 5

You might think the answer is:
x = 16/5, y = 3/5

But nope, the second equation was hiding its true feelings, and said 5 instead of 11.
The true answer is x = 2, y = 3.

If A implies B, and B implies C, does A imply C?
Nope. B implies C was a bluff.
 
I assume there are just no 1 generic modifier. There are a lot of things which alter AI decisions, but they are considered in each case individually. For example, if AI considers you a threat, they'll likely not sell you strategic resource to allow you building stronger army. But that don't affect their decision about luxury resource trading that much.
 
Ihmemies said:
Did Civ or Civ2 have these? How did you play before the game turned into an excel excercise? :)
Click to expand...

Games improve. Do you see as many players playing civ1 as civ4?

We don't "need" the data.
Click to expand...

We don't need it for winning. But it's more fun to do a thing for a reaction, than just randomly guess things and hope they have an effect.
 
wapamingo said:
So lets say I give a resource for free, before I make that choice I'd like to see a floater tooltip saying "This will greatly improve our relationship with Catherine" (+4 for as long as resource is provided, +2 permanently)
Click to expand...

The AI's relationship with you doesn't seem to work entirely like that anymore. It's no longer "Your action = this change". It's far more a combination of previous actions and current political situations. Pacts can help, but only if you're actually following through on them. And, in the end, the AI could be bluffing (just like you). If you trade iron to an AI, it isn't saying "+1 because you traded with me", it's saying "I like Iron, so I won't attack you." In this context, modifiers are less than helpful, overall.
 
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