SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

We're guaranteed to get a Great General from fighting Willem. Do we have a Galleon that can pick it up before the war on Cathy? It could feasibly spawn in any City (unless someone knows the algorithm that the game uses to decide which City to spawn it in--it's probably like Religion-founding--certain factors are involved like City size, but then a random number factor probably gets thrown in, too).

We should get it next turn, right? If so, getting the GG to the western front could delay moving our galleons toward Moscow in a timely fashion. Maybe we should just plan on using this GG to promote units for our eastern front...

BTW, do we really need 4 galleons worth of units on the turn we declare? That seems like overkill to me and won't leave much for St. Petersburg. Worst case, we could use 3 galleons and 1 of them could pick up more troops north of The Hauge and drop them off on the next turn...
 
Mitchum said:
Depending on how many workers we get from William, I would like to build a fort canal which would allow us to sail on Moscow as opposed to sailing around the continent.
That idea is a neat one. If nothing else, we can build Forts so that our Galleons can sail back quicker, after having initially sailed around the northern route.

However, are we even certain that the northern route is not blocked off?

Even if it is not blocked off, could we save some turns of not sailing around with empty Galleon by using this Fort idea?

There is 1 Worker by Rotterdam. We could feasibly cancel our Forest Chopping with our 2 Workers and load them up in the nearby Galleon. We could then form a Galleon chain with our Galleons that do not need to sail around the northern Coast, in order to get those Workers to the front lines immediately.


Forts CAN be built in neutral territory.

Forts take 15 turns to build. We could either:
Build a Fort on Willem's Pig, then later build 2 other Forts on the nearby Cottages (later forming a 2-Fort-wide passage plus Pasturing that Pig later, but for now just putting a Fort on the Pig to get it done faster)
OR
Spend twice as many Worker turns up-front (but less overall since we wouldn't later need to rebuild the Pasture) by building 2 Forts initially.

In the interests of speed, I'd probably say:
a) Bring both of our Workers there by cancelling their Forest Chopping and bring them to the action using a Galleon Chain
b) Aim to build a single Fort on the Pig if we only have our 2 Workers + 1 Worker from Rotterdam
c) Instead aim to build 2 Forts if we can capture at least 2 Workers from The Hague


We definitely lose turns that WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GAIN BACK by sailing our Galleons around the northern Coast. If we don't do so, then we can:
a) Bring our Workers into the action using a Galleon chain
b) Bring more land-based troops from the mainland using a Galleon chain
c) Have the flexibility to actually send 4 Galleons towards Moscow
d) Do it all in roughly the same amount of time that it would take to sail around the northern Coast
e) Speed up our victory slightly by getting Ragnar's Ivory City (+1 Happiness = more whipping sooner) with the time that we aren't spending sailing empty Galleons around a wide continent
f) Have a reasonable chance to finish-off Willem's last City at the same time

So yes, with a bit of planning (i.e. stopping our 2 Workers' Forest Chopping actions and Galleon-chaining them to Willem's area), this plan sounds far preferable to sailing Galleons around the northern Coast for a number of wasted turns.

Ideally, we could form a Galleon chain that would allow Workers to unload inside of a City, saving them a turn of movement as compared to manually losing a turn to unloading from a Galleon.

Let's see how it would work.
1. T + 0: our 2 Workers would stop their Forest Chopping.
2. T + 1: Galleon 6 would move SW + S + S to pick up the eastern Worker and then head west to pick up the western Worker. Other Galleons would get in position for a Galleon chain that would start on the following turn. In particular, we'd have:
a) The eastern "Galleon 1" (aka Galleon 0) can move 2 squares west
b) Galleon 4 can move 2 squares SW (i.e. SW + SW)
c) Galleon 3 can move SW + W

In these positions, on T + 2, our Workers can arrive inside of Utrecht with Galleon 3 having 0 movement points. The Workers would unload inside of the City. The Workers would have 0 movement points themselves, so even if we forgot to unload them on this turn, we'd still be able to unload them on the following turn with no change.

Thus, on T + 3, our 2 Workers will be able to move. If we own The Hague by that time, the 2 Workers can immediately begin to build a Fort--probably on the GPig, but ideally on a Grassland Cottage 1S of the GPig if we are able to capture a few Workers in The Hague.

By then, we should hopefully own the Worker from Rotterdam, too, giving us a minimum of 3 Workers (which would take 5 turns to complete a single Fort).


EDIT: Of course, this Galleon chaining means delaying when we pick up our Great General, but I think that we'd still be able to send the 7th Galleon back to the west to pick the Great General up from wherever it spawns, but only after we'd shuttled our Workers to the west. This Fort idea seems worth it to delay getting the Great General, and we don't even know where the Great General will spawn (hopefully in Utrecht, if we could only be so lucky).
 
I think that I'm with shyuhe here. Let's think about it:
One Maceman is already in Utrecht. He can stay there since he HAS NOT MOVED on the current turn and will health to full health in 1 turn.

I already agreed to shyuhe's suggestion in a post above, so as far as I'm concerned, this has already been agreed. I think it's a good idea.

If you want to be REALLY efficient, your plan will be flexible, in that you will first drop off the 3 troops in Galleon 1 in order to see how many defenders there are in The Hague. If there are 3 or more defenders, then take all of the units that are 1S of Utrecht into Galleons 2 and 5. If there are 2 or less defenders, then you probably don't need to take all of those wounded Macemen and could perhaps leave a second Maceman in Utrecht to heal.

I was going to ask if I could perform just this move now and then stop, but I forgot to do so. If we want so many galleons for Moscow, I think we can only spare 2 of them for The Hague though, not 3 as you're suggesting.
 
I'd rather have a War Elephant than a Pikeman, as War Elephants are not vulnerable to Axemen and yet they serve a similar purpose in terms of being anti-Horse-Archer and anti-Chariot while having an identical cost (90 Hammers).

War elephants require horseback riding. How do you suggest we get it?

Well, great! While our forces are gathering to take on Cathy, scoop up his Ivory City.

It looks like we can get our galleons in position outside Hague by T+6, there won't exactly be a gap where we are gathering our forces up.

Each round of Cathy whipping units, whipping Walls, whipping Castles, and investing Hammers into build items will give us a profit of only 40 Gold to try and counter-act her production with. You please tell me how we're going to translate 40 Gold per turn into a pile of production that will take on her army.

I just don't see it.

I think this in an exaggeration. St Pete would only have a couple of turns of extra war production before we took it, the same would be true for 2 of her other cities which the Southern stack would take her, given the time they were settled in one of them at least this will be completely negligable. Furthermore the AI only has a tendency to go into mass whipping mode once his cities are threatened which should be similar whether we delay the attack or not. Compared to the additional threat she would pose if she got macemen, and the extra turns of total production she would have; I think it would actually be easier to make a lightning strike on her capital.
 
Since we're whipping 4 -> 2, don't we gain 2X what you've listed here (i.e. 90 * 1.5 = 135)? This only makes the case for whipping even better than what your calculations show...
Haha, awesome point. Yes, whipping owns the pants off of working a DesH Mine square.

Given that case, we could even justify working the Coast for 1 turn and whipping in 1 turn, since doing so gives us far more Hammers than trying to "perfect" the Food overflow would give us.
 
Haha, awesome point. Yes, whipping owns the pants off of working a DesH Mine square.

It's possible that whipping is even better than working the gold and iron tiles non-stop as shyuhe suggested. Of course, we'd only NOT be working these tiles for 1 or 2 turns as our fist new citizen after whipping would go straight to the gold/iron mine...
 
Thus, on T + 3, our 2 Workers will be able to move. If we own The Hague by that time, the 2 Workers can immediately begin to build a Fort--probably on the GPig, but ideally on a Grassland Cottage 1S of the GPig if we are able to capture a few Workers in The Hague.

So, if it takes 15 turns to build a fort, that will be 5 turns with 3 workers (current 2 plus captured one). That puts us at having the fort done on T+8 with an attack possible on that turn.

According to mdy, we can sail around the continent in T+6. The fort adds 2 turns. (EDIT: maybe only 1 turn if our units north of The Hague hop on the galleys on T+6).

Now, if there are workers to be caputured in The Hague, maybe we can build the fort in less than 5 turns.

Permission requested to drop off units in galley next to The Hague right now so that we can see what's there...
 
You can go ahead and unload a shipment next to the Hague (probably should have done it before I passed it off anyways). I think there's at least one full health mace in that shipment, right?
 
I was going to ask if I could perform just this move now and then stop, but I forgot to do so. If we want so many galleons for Moscow, I think we can only spare 2 of them for The Hague though, not 3 as you're suggesting.
Well, it's a good idea to make that move and then make the decision, since you won't even need to advance the turn in order to make this move.

We all seem to be agreed to risk landing those 3 troops next to The Hague, which should be pretty safe to do since it's 2 Macemen + 1 Treb instead of 2 Trebs + 1 Maceman, so I don't see anything stopping you from making this movement.

I realise that we'd use up 3 Galleons, so having this info will help us to decide if we really will use 3 Galleons at The Hague or not. Shyuhe already implied that he'd use 3 Galleons when he said "all of the Trebs (3 Trebs) plus 1 Maceman" = 4 units = 2 Galleons... I was just saying... "well, if we're going to use 2 Galleons anyway, why not consider sending in the 2nd Maceman, even if it is only at 4.6 Health with City Raider II, since this Maceman might speed up the capture of the City by 1 turn."


Anyway, if we focus on the Fort approach, then we don't need to waste a number of turns sailing around with empty Galleons, in which case we should DEFINITELY bring both wounded Macemen and focus on capturing The Hague ASAP, so that we can start work on building a Fort ASAP.


mdy said:
War elephants require horseback riding. How do you suggest we get it?
How else? We'll trade for it.
Drama <-> Horseback Riding from Cathy
OR
Drama <-> Horseback Riding from Vicky
OR
Philosophy <-> Horseback Riding + Literature + 60 Gold from Vicky



mdy said:
I think this in an exaggeration. St Pete would only have a couple of turns of extra war production before we took it, the same would be true for 2 of her other cities which the Southern stack would take her, given the time they were settled in one of them at least this will be completely negligable. Furthermore the AI only has a tendency to go into mass whipping mode once his cities are threatened which should be similar whether we delay the attack or not. Compared to the additional threat she would pose if she got macemen, and the extra turns of total production she would have; I think it would actually be easier to make a lightning strike on her capital.
Every turn spent at war with Cathy longer than we need to spend means facing more Longbowmen. Facing more Archers from another AI is trivial, but facing another Longbowman makes each Treb and Maceman considerably weaker. Facing 3 Longbowmen is a LOT tougher than facing 2 Longbowmen, and the odds get drastically worse as the number of Longbowmen go up, since there'll continue to be a non-Collateral-damage-damaged unit for a long time, the more Longbowmen defenders that there are.

We're talking about a very small difference in Gold gained (enough Gold to upgrade maybe 2 Macemen into Warriors, and then we'd still need to make enough Hammers to build 2 Archers) for having to face stronger defenses. Stronger defenses means that we'll lose more Military Units, meaning that we'll have more of a production deficit.

I don't see how this extra Gold can possibly make up for the lost production... and like I said, that lost production is two-fold, since every whip that Cathy makes is one whip that we can't make from out of her Cities.


Fearing her getting Civil Service in the intervening turns is a bit of unnecessary fear-mongering, don't you think? As you said, better for her to build non-Longbowmen units, which includes Macemen.


I'm not sure what you're talking about with Cathy feeling "threatened." We are her good trading partner. She is PLEASED towards us. She does not expect us to backstab her. We could sail 100 fully-loaded Galleons right up to her borders and she wouldn't notice until after we declared war.

I do agree that once war is begun, she will whip like crazy. The more Cities that we can take down within the first couple of turns of war, the less losses that we will suffer (less Longbowmen to fight), the less defenses (less Walls and Castles) that we will face, and the more gains that we will get (more population that we can whip instead of her).


She may decide to stay in Pacifism, since she does not know Theology, which gives us a 1-turn-leeway before she starts whipping. Not a 4-turn-leeway, not an 8-turn-leeway... we really need to make the most out of the first turns of war.
 
I think we should seriously consider the philo--HBR+literature trade with Vicky. Who knows, maybe she'll try to build AW :lol:

@Dhoom - "threatened" is when a player (or AI) parks a stack of units next to an AI's city while at war. The AI considers that city threatened and will whip an emergency defender if possible.

Cathy realistically has 4 decent cities since 2 were founded very recently and one is that northern PoS hill city (grr). If we take out Moscow + St. Pete, she should only have 2 decent cities left.
 
@mdy - would you be opposed to a T+10 assault on Moscow as opposed to a T+7?

T+10 is probably when we would take Moscow if we sent 2 galleons around the north, do you mean landing our forces on T+7 v T+10? What would we gain from the 3T delay?
 
It's possible that whipping is even better than working the gold and iron tiles non-stop as shyuhe suggested. Of course, we'd only NOT be working these tiles for 1 or 2 turns as our fist new citizen after whipping would go straight to the gold/iron mine...
Well, we could run the math, but for the Iron square, we get 1 Food and 6 final Hammers. That's a considerably larger amount than the 4 final Hammers from the DesH Mine. I would be tempted to say that "the numbers are close enough" that I'd rather work the Iron Mine and grow a bit slower as a result, meaning that we'd have longer whipping cycles and thus more time to recover from the Unhappiness.

Unlike with Stone City, we DO NOT have unlimited Happiness, which changes the numbers in favour of working squares instead of whipping citizens, so when the numbers are close like I think that they would be here, even if whipping "on paper" looks slightly better, it probably won't be better when you factor in the whipping Unhappiness.


The Gold Resource is harder to quantify, since we don't have much of a direct conversion from Commerce into Food or Hammers, but given that we make 7 Commerce ON TOP of what we'd make with the DesH Mine, I would be tempted to always work the Gold Mine.


So, I think that working the Iron Mine and the Gold Mine for all turns is going to be better than whipping away the citizens working these squares, even if, as you say, it only means a loss of 1 turn working those squares, because we're also speeding-up the whipping frequency by not working these squares constantly, meaning that we'll run into Unhappiness issues sooner.
 
Gold is probably worth working -- the commerce fuels our culture slider.

@mdy - if we sprint towards Moscow around the north, I think we can hit it on T+7. If we are going for a T+10 date, I think we can use the canal route. The canal route also frees up a lot of logistical options like conquering Willem's last city, nabbing Ragnar's ivory, etc, and also lets us field a stack against St. Pete's at the same time (I think).
 
I think we should seriously consider the philo--HBR+literature trade with Vicky. Who knows, maybe she'll try to build AW :lol:
Sure, that works for me. It's not like she'll self-tech it, so, unlike giving away Drama, we won't be taking away a potentially artsy-fartsy research task.


@Dhoom - "threatened" is when a player (or AI) parks a stack of units next to an AI's city while at war. The AI considers that city threatened and will whip an emergency defender if possible.
Okay, so maybe we do agree after all. I'd like us to land troops at Moscow and St. Petersburg on the same turn as each other, and just to be clear, not declaring war before then.

Is it really so hard for us to support this timing?

The real question in my mind is: what sort of forces do we bring with us? In particular, are we going to wait for Willem's Cities to come out of revolt? Are we going to leave any garrison units in Willem's Cities (we probably should if we don't eliminate him, otherwise we'll lose population points due to unhappiness, but if we eliminate him, then we could leave his Cities empty and they should hopefully not shrink as a result).


If we take out Moscow + St. Pete, she should only have 2 decent cities left.
So let's just aim to attack both of these Cities simultaneously when we declare war, instead of taking a policy of "capital ASAP, Cathy's other Cities be darned."
 
Crap. I tried to unload the units from the galleon but they must have already hopped galleons this turn because they can't be unloaded until next turn. Our galleon in the lake is not at risk of being attacked, but it's proximity to The Hauge could threaten it... Or maybe not. Oh well.

For future turns, I'd suggest that no units be moved if at all possible when handing off the save to the next person. That way we have full flexibility to do what makes sense given the current circumstances and the newly agreed plan.
 
Don't forget, we can scout Cathy's cities while our ships sail toward Moscow (either northern route or through the canal). This will give us an excellent idea of how big our army really needs to be...

I like the canal approach. As shyuhe said, it frees us up to take a few more cities. It gives us more time to scout Cathy. Plus it will allow us to whip a few units out of Willem's cities for the initial assult.
 
Top Bottom