Piety is now Ancient - still very weak.

Martinus · Jul 5, 2013

Killlbray said:
I'm not saying that it's impossible to become the dominant religion anyway, but you'll end up having to fight to get your reward, while with other policies you get your reward instantly and surely.

That's not true for all other policies. Definitely Patronage requires you to fight for your reward. And many other bonuses (e.g. ones to trade routes, archeology digs, or research agreements) can also prove quite empty if you, e.g., get embargoed or someone beats you to the artifacts or everyone hates you.

Crafty Bison · Jul 5, 2013

imo, Indonesia should found and should probably go piety too, just not early in the game. If they found late then they can still probably get holy warrior follower, interfaith dialogue founder or the reformation which means you can buy more units. They'll still make faith and so benefit from piety, it's just that they get to focus hammers and policies elsewhere in the early game.

stealth_nsk · Jul 5, 2013

Monthar said:
I would still try to found a religion not only to have the founder belief, but also to tailor it to suit my needs. Since I'd want other religions in my cities as Indonesia, I'd go with the beliefs that work well with a set number of followers instead of requiring my religion to be the majority.

Well, there are some things to consider:

1. Candi requires river or lake. If your main cities lack them, you could safely ignore the religious stuff of Indonesia.

2. You need to choose between going Piety or not, spending resources on founding religion or not. For Indonesia the variant without going Piety and founding a religion is much better than for other civs as they get a lot of Faith without investing in religion (and thus having other social policies and non-religious buildings/wonders). That's why this option looks good for them. Other options are still possible.

3. Map size is important as it determines maximum number of religions in game. I.e. if you have 3 religions in game, it's easy to get all 3 in every city even if you've founded one of them. But if you have 8 religions in game, founding a religion would reduce the number of religions per city significantly.

Martinus · Jul 5, 2013

Wouldn't it be better for Indonesia actually not to found a religion, just focus on good city placement (different continents, many resources, lake or river) and then get other people's religions through trade routes?

Martinus · Jul 5, 2013

Monthar said:
I would still try to found a religion not only to have the founder belief, but also to tailor it to suit my needs. Since I'd want other religions in my cities as Indonesia, I'd go with the beliefs that work well with a set number of followers instead of requiring my religion to be the majority.

Don't those bonuses still require you to be a majority to activate in a city?

stealth_nsk · Jul 5, 2013

Martinus said:
Wouldn't it be better for Indonesia actually not to found a religion, just focus on good city placement (different continents, many resources, lake or river) and then get other people's religions through trade routes?

Yes, looks like in most cases this would be better.

Monthar · Jul 5, 2013

Martinus said:
Don't those bonuses still require you to be a majority to activate in a city?

As long as you maintain the majority in your holy city you'll reap the benefits of the founder belief. Tithe is a great founder belief to not worry about having the majority everywhere.

Follower beliefs that would work well here are.
Cathedrals, Monasteries, Mosques and Pagodas, because the city only has to have your religion as the majority at the time they are purchased. Once purchased it doesn't matter if that city flips to a different religion.

Religious Art: Hermitage provides +8 :c5culture:

in city. Because you're holy city it most likely going to be your capital and the city that has the most culture modifiers.

Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 :c5faith:

. Again, because your holy city will likely be your capital and will likely have the most wonders built in it.

Most of the enhancer beliefs would work well.

The only founder beliefs that wouldn't be good are Ceremonial Burial and Church Property.

Arilian · Jul 5, 2013

Ok, I am convinced that mixing with piety is ok.

Especially with civs with UB and Byz.

So is might be intentional, that the best solution is not to complete it.

I you do NOT take Tradition hovever, then you must hard build Monuments everywhere, and culture border expansion will be slower.

So the best solution might be Trad 1-2, Piety 1, Trad 3, Piety 2, Finish Trad.
Here you can finish Piety but you probably better start getting Rationalism.

With Libery, also viable, Liberty 1-2-3 (For Rex) Piety 1-2

Arilian · Jul 5, 2013

Religious Tolerance is superbad

+10%Gold for temples, is Ok, it could give you more money, than commerce +25% in capital if you have a lot of cities with temples.

Free GP is always good

Martinus · Jul 5, 2013

Monthar said:
As long as you maintain the majority in your holy city you'll reap the benefits of the founder belief. Tithe is a great founder belief to not worry about having the majority everywhere.

Follower beliefs that would work well here are.
Cathedrals, Monasteries, Mosques and Pagodas, because the city only has to have your religion as the majority at the time they are purchased. Once purchased it doesn't matter if that city flips to a different religion.

Religious Art: Hermitage provides +8 in city. Because you're holy city it most likely going to be your capital and the city that has the most culture modifiers.

Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 . Again, because your holy city will likely be your capital and will likely have the most wonders built in it.

Most of the enhancer beliefs would work well.

The only founder beliefs that wouldn't be good are Ceremonial Burial and Church Property.

Oh ok, yes you are right. I wasn't thinking of Founder Beliefs, but stuff like the Follower belief that gives you a production bonus in a city based on a number of followers (I think 1% per each follower, up to the max of 15). I believe such bonuses require the religion to have a majority in the city anyway.

Monthar · Jul 5, 2013

Yes, those types of follower beliefs have to maintain the majority in the city to keep them active. For the production bonus, in a city of 20 pop, you'd only need to keep 15 of them as your religion, which allows up to 5 other religions to have 1 follower each in that city to keep the max bonus. Happiness from shrines only needs 3 and be the majority, so a city of 5 pop could have 2 followers from 2 other religions and be fine. Happiness or culture from temples only needs 5, so a 9 pop city could still have 4 followers from 4 other religions and still be the majority, keeping that bonus.

RealHuhn · Jul 5, 2013

I think Piety opener is pretty much a no brainer in almost every game.

There really is no downside, even if you don't wanna get a religion. You should build a shrine in every city anyway for an early pantheon and for buying GPs in late game.

I might change my mind if
a) religious civs consistantly found a religion on turn 40 or something
b) maintenance costs are killing me
c) importance of faith is somehow decreased in BNW compared to G+K

The QC · Jul 5, 2013

Semi-random question: did the science requirement get removed for the technologies that are unlocked by policy trees? E.g. do you still need Theology for the Mosque of Djenne or just to unlock Piety? In the latter case, I wonder if the building cost has decreased as well, since it's significantly more expensive than other wonders that are available near the start of the game (60% more costly than Stonehenge, for instance; but much better, too).

Merciorum · Jul 5, 2013

Piety seems like a tree that will be very powerful situationally, depending largely on your civ/preferred victory choice; it's not going to be the tree you go for most of the time, but if you're playing a tall-culture game, or as a faith orientated civ (especially Byzantium, where it's pretty much mandatory), it can be very deadly. An interesting alternative to Tradition and Liberty (and Honour, I suppose).

stealth_nsk · Jul 5, 2013

The QC said:
Semi-random question: did the science requirement get removed for the technologies that are unlocked by policy trees? E.g. do you still need Theology for the Mosque of Djenne or just to unlock Piety? In the latter case, I wonder if the building cost has decreased as well, since it's significantly more expensive than other wonders that are available near the start of the game (60% more costly than Stonehenge, for instance; but much better, too).

Yes, you still need the tech.

Buccaneer · Jul 5, 2013

seancolorado said:
Wait, so as Indonesia do we or do we not found a religion?

Like how all games are played - it depends. It depends on the map, who your opponents are, whether you are going to need to be aggressive, whether an opponent's early religion will dominate you and how much gold you will be getting (to buy with). Other factors, as well, but we'll know more next week.

Louis XXIV · Jul 5, 2013

stealth_nsk said:
With trade routes having more than one religion in a city will be normal (unless you focus on Inquisitors a lot). So, Indonesia will not have any advantages here.

Indonesian cities are more attractive targets for religion, though, because three of them are guaranteed to have a religion that others do not. This means those trade routes will be more valuable for other players.

Ogrelord · Jul 5, 2013

Martinus said:
Wouldn't it be better for Indonesia actually not to found a religion, just focus on good city placement (different continents, many resources, lake or river) and then get other people's religions through trade routes?

I think Indonesia best strategies is to make their cities good destinations for International Trade Routes for Civs with religions. So yes indeed, good city placement and improve those resources! Indonesia 3 unique luxury resources count as resource diversity when determining how much gold a Trade Route will generate.

Monthar said:
Religious Art: Hermitage provides +8 in city. Because you're holy city it most likely going to be your capital and the city that has the most culture modifiers.

The bonus for this has changed.

stealth_nsk · Jul 5, 2013

Louis XXIV said:
Indonesian cities are more attractive targets for religion, though, because three of them are guaranteed to have a religion that others do not. This means those trade routes will be more valuable for other players.

I think by "Religion" you meant "Resource"? Anyway yes, you're right. So Indonesia needs to build resource cities:
- On another landmass.
- Near river or lake to get Candi.
- On the seashore to get maximum trade routes in.
Quite a quest, to be honest

black213 · Jul 5, 2013

I doubt Piety will be that useful now that it's unlocked in the ancient era. It lacks any bonuses to general infrastructure that Tradition and Liberty have. Same problem with Honor.

Piety is now Ancient - still very weak.

Emperor

King

Deity

Emperor

Emperor

Deity

Deity

King

King

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

Quietly Confident

Prince

Deity

Deity

Le Roi Soleil

Prince

Deity

Emperor

Similar threads