The Immortal Challenge 1: Apocalypto

My instincts are to expand towards the AI, cramping him and reserving some space for ourselves. I don't necessarily like going into the jungle for an early war (before they've had a chance to clear it for us). There's quite a bit of land still open, if we settle to the south first.

Hm, not much food. That makes me want to stretch what we've got as far as possible. I'm looking at the desert tile south of the SE Corn. I count 14 cottages plus a couple of hills. The capital's Corn could be poached to the SW, again for a mess of cottages. If the Corn is poached, the Pigs shouldn't be, so brown '?' could be moved SW, losing Stone but netting 2 grassland and 2 grass hills for a good production city. It fits better with the capital, and it might even be possible to work that Stone from the east, we don't yet know. Site B will be reasonable once Optics is in, but not before -- ignore it for now.

Agree that you need a second worker. Oracle is probably possible if you prioritize it (and for once, the GP would be a blessing instead of a curse). But I'd also like to see Pottery soon. City maintainence scales up fast on immortal, and there's danger of a real fiscal crunch around 3-4 cities. Cottages for the win?

peace,
lilnev
 
Even though Blue A would be better in the short term, I think I'd go with the majority and vote for Red A, since it has a better long-term upside (less sharing with the capital and its own corn).

It's a damn shame that incense and the other desert tile weren't reversed. At least then you could get the city tile bonus on the otherwise useless desert. Ah, perchance to dream, eh? :D
 
I say Red A for city 2. However, if you are thinking of needing lots of troops, a city 1N2E of B will have access to enough food for working hills and horse to get at 13 hammers at size 4 (early) and 19 hammers at size 7 (a little later). If going for a rush, a city with that production power would be great IMO. It does however, mess up the dotmap for other cities.
 
Bigfoot is right - why not 1NW of blue A??
Why did you choose blue A over that tile in the first place? :confused: To get 2 desert tiles with Incense on 1 of them? I am also against settling on forest - those trees could be chopped for hammers, you know.;)

...and to think that some people are bashing AI city placement:D

Also, thank you aelf for displaying this game. I rarely play above monarch... and I rarely finish my games. That lousy comp of mine starts to lag in later ages... :sad:
 
1NW of the Blue A does have its advantages. One of them is that it frees up that corn in Red A to go with the gold pit that is to the SE of Red A...

I can't believe some people are advocating for a regular chariot rush against a creative civ on immortal? :( I admit I don't play on this skill level, but it just seems like suicide to me? What if you encouter a city or two on a hill? Not to mention even 1 spear on that hilled city. I once threw a stack of over a dozen regular (variably promoted) chariots against a city with 1 spear, 1 archer, and a moderate cultural defence. I lost the whole stack...
 
what creative has to do with anything? some extra culture is not a big deal. What i would do is build some chariots and scout France asap, see if they have metal at all. If all they have are still archers and you see them connecting metal, declare and pillage untill you have more chariots. This sort of thing wins the game from beggining. In fact i don't think i would research Iron Working myself rather get it from alphabet. Though you do have gold mines around, but I would still use that adventage for something else.
 
Bigfoot is right - why not 1NW of blue A??
Why did you choose blue A over that tile in the first place? :confused: To get 2 desert tiles with Incense on 1 of them? I am also against settling on forest - those trees could be chopped for hammers, you know.;)

...and to think that some people are bashing AI city placement:D

Also, thank you aelf for displaying this game. I rarely play above monarch... and I rarely finish my games. That lousy comp of mine starts to lag in later ages... :sad:


You will misplace your second city for eternity to save one forest for chopping?

1 NW of blue A is bad. Each of the goldmining cities needs own food resource.
 
1NW of the Blue A does have its advantages. One of them is that it frees up that corn in Red A to go with the gold pit that is to the SE of Red A...

I can't believe some people are advocating for a regular chariot rush against a creative civ on immortal? :( I admit I don't play on this skill level, but it just seems like suicide to me? What if you encouter a city or two on a hill? Not to mention even 1 spear on that hilled city. I once threw a stack of over a dozen regular (variably promoted) chariots against a city with 1 spear, 1 archer, and a moderate cultural defence. I lost the whole stack...

Always fight on your own terms. If a city is too defended, well, there's another down the road and chariots are mobile.
 
I can't believe some people are advocating for a regular chariot rush against a creative civ on immortal? :( I admit I don't play on this skill level, but it just seems like suicide to me? What if you encouter a city or two on a hill?

Chariots are still good at this stage. In my experience 6 chariots can usually take down 2 archers fortified in a hill city at around 50% city defence (wall or culture), but bring along 8 to be sure. The odds are much better if the city is not on a hill. Chariots are cheap and if horses are connected and copper is not, there is not point delaying if you want an early war. And they get to the battle scene twice as fast as axes.
 
1 NW of blue A is bad. Each of the goldmining cities needs own food resource.

Well, it does have the pigs as well as farmable grassland. Maybe I am overlooking something, but why couldn't it work the gold and pigs while growing into mined grass/hill tiles? The capital still has another food tile plus the oasis, it should be able to share the pigs while #2 grows to its potential. I am not saying my suggestion is necessarily the best, but I don't see an insurmountable problem there either.
 
I was thinking 1NW of blue A would compromise a possible coastal city in the north in the future (eg. brown '?'). And we would be trading a desert tile for a coastal tile without a lighthouse. Not a win-win situation either.

Anyway, as it stands, I think Red A is a better choice. Third city would, as recommended, probably wait for the revelation of copper. What next, though? Stop settling and start conquering?
 
@Sun - no, 1 forest is no dealbreaker of course. I was just under impression that 1NW would be a better site in itself. Compromising brown "?" is an issue, however. I was thinking of grabbing that third corn with a city further norh, but seems that our landmass could end there...

@aelf: Neither jags nor chariots require bronze, so I'd take even the third city from enemy instead of building one myself...
 
Well, after more observation, I've made a new dotmap:



This has the advantage of keeping the north coast free for a possible city and giving the eastern corn to a city that could work the southern gold in the future. City A could share the pigs with our food-rich capital. The only downside is City B would miss the fresh water bonus from the lake by 1 tile :(

City B could be our fourth city, after third city has grabbed copper (if there's one around).
 
I have no useful comments to add to this thread (I am still grappling with Noble level) but I just have to say that this thread is fascinating and I am learning a lot from it.
 
aelf, the big lake south of Pink City is all fresh water. With harbor, each of the tiles there is oasis equal. I'd build 1E of the gold, bringing in sea access, fresh water, 4 fresh water tiles, the gold, two hills and fair amounts of grass and coast.

There's also the chance the most handsomest guy will beat you in the area. If you beat him, it may turn out to be a good block. Still, I believe the French deserve rushing, not blocking.

The real question is, however, will you irrigate along the river or will you cottage? Irrigation will help avoid city crampling for food resources to work the two golds there. River cottages are, well, river cottages. Will you play FE, CE, hammer, mix? Your main territory (the river) is very good for farms, cottages, or hammers (mines now, mines+watermills later). It's no good for trade empire, as your capital and probably at least one other major city won't have sea access.

Some notes about the resources:
Plain hill stone offers +1 hammer over mine. Not bad, but as a 0 food tile, there's no guarantee the extra hammer will benefit you all the time. So, not really important as long as you have the stone in your borders.

Desert incense is 6 commerce, which is worse than representation specialist and better than specialist only if the city has no chance of catching up to GP farm(s). Weak.

Horses are like chemistry workshops always running under communism and generating extra commerce. Good enough.

Whales come late. Whales are easily pillaged in warmongering game on Immortal. You only need them in your borders.

Fresh lakes with harbor are pretty good, beating river irrigations till Biology.

Food resources are the best. Food can be converted to anything you want. Claim all of them.
 
@Sun - no, 1 forest is no dealbreaker of course. I was just under impression that 1NW would be a better site in itself. Compromising brown "?" is an issue, however. I was thinking of grabbing that third corn with a city further norh, but seems that our landmass could end there...

I'm more worried about compromising the gold on the west coast.

The landmass ends there, but we don't know what's in the sea.
 
Aelf, I do not like your new location. I think old red one still better.
it can work gold at size one, why building obelisk. good research help stright away.
You do need second worker and barbarian defence.
Simply you did not explore engoth and old red one do not prevent you from building any other posibilities open in the sea.

about plan, it is still unclear. you have space and accessable resource to expand, so there is not mach reason to go to very early war.
In addition, if I undestand correctly, Franch capital is across the jungle. So, There is not mach point to atack them, they are just tooo far away.

Develop, settle avalible cities, claim resources, explore more. Consider building so stone connected wanders.Garden look atractive for the moment.
 
If an attack with regular chariots does come, I will be looking forward to seeing how it plays out :) I thought the consensus opinion is that they're not really to be used to take cities (mainly barb-bashers), but this thread shows me that may not be the case ;)
 
If an attack with regular chariots does come, I will be looking forward to seeing how it plays out :) I thought the consensus opinion is that they're not really to be used to take cities (mainly barb-bashers), but this thread shows me that may not be the case ;)

let's say a city guarded by 3 archers.
You need either 6 axemen (7 is sure thing, 5 is a gamble) or 9 chariots.
6 axemen cost 35 * 6 = 210 hammers
9 chariots cost 25 * 9 = 225 hammers
the difference is made up by the 2 moves IMHO.

You think you lose more chariots than axemen?
Let's assume the first 6 lose. A few will retreat, so you should have 3 to 5 chariots left after the city.
you would lose 1 to 3 axes anyway.
no big deal IMHO, reinforcements come at 2 moves /turn :lol:


It's a bit bitter vs spears of course. you need to take down the metals first, and it may be costly.
 
You haven't dotted that option but I'd go for 5E and 1S from your capitol. Right next to a food resource and if you can hook it up with culture, it has gold in it's workable cross. Sure it's not going to be the biggest city you can get but with the early food resource and the possibility of getting gold, it's a good early city for whipping and research.

You could consider it :)
 
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