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Depends on the higher power. Russian Tsar, ruler of the Third Rome, who rules over his subjects autocratically, like God in Heaven rules over his angels - for, if we are to imitate Christ, shouldn't our states imitate Heaven? - is a divinely ordained power. Rulers of We$tern demock-crazies, on the other hand, are elected to their posts not by God, but by sinful men, and should not be obeyed.
 
Ruling autocratically does not seem very compatible with the teachings of Christ. Imitating Christ would involve humbling oneself and becoming a servant.

Luke 22 said:
24 A dispute also arose among them, as to which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. 25 And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. 26 But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. 27For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

I don't believe that we are told to imitate God the Father as we are told to imitate God the Son. Trying to imitate The Father tends to lead to setting oneself up as an idol to be worshiped.


Also, in the old testament we see that the people of Israel wanted a King, and the prophet Samuel was very much against the idea. When God relents and ordains Saul it sounds a bit like giving them a monarchy was punishment. Also, Hosea 8:4 says "They have made kings, and not by Me, They have made princes, and I have not known," which seems to imply that at least some absolute monarchs were not given authority by God.
 
Can Jesus' instructions for life be simplified like the "Ten Commandments" of the old testament, or must we read and re-read what he has said in the New Testament and others who later interpret what he meant. i.e. "Is there a simple how-to guide to be Christian with clear bullet points."

I don't think one can do this, for several reasons.

First, even if one could produce a simple codification of Jesus' teachings, it wouldn't follow that this is a "simple how-to guide to be a Christian". Because being a Christian isn't simply a matter of following Jesus' ethical teachings; it also involves believing things about Jesus.

Second, we just don't know with enough certainty precisely what Jesus taught or what he meant by it. Even where scholars agree on what material in the Gospels really goes back to Jesus (and there isn't much agreement even on that), they don't agree how Jesus's teaching should in general be understood.

Third, no body of teaching, even if we know it, can reasonably be condensed in such a way. It's important to realise that just making a list of the key points of someone's teaching inevitably misses much of the teaching, because it is also important how they relate to each other. Which is the most important element of the teaching? What elements are derived from others? What are the subtle nuances? I think that even if we had transcripts of Jesus' sermons, assuming he delivered any, it would still be a mistake to try to reduce them into bulleted lists.

Perhaps i'm mistaken, but i don't believe Jesus is quoted as claiming to be God in the Gospels. John's Gospel implies this, but Jesus (or more accurately the Gospels authors) never say this specifically. Again if i'm wrong someone please correct me.

Briefly, you're probably right that Jesus makes no such claim in the Synoptics and only hints at it in John, though opinions differ regarding how much weight should be placed on the various verses. We've discussed this a number of times in these threads so follow the links on the first page if you're interested.

What are the most relevant quotations by the Church Fathers that would be applicable to diologue between Catholics and Protestants today? (In other words, what quotes would give us an idea of what the Church fathers would think about the debate today.)

Which debate? Which dialogue? And which Catholics, and which Protestants? There is no such thing as some single debate between them. Catholics differ among themselves and Protestants differ among themselves, and there's a vast web of discussion between all of them, all the way from Reformation-style bashing of each other to the ecumenical movement and indeed people who aren't clearly in either camp (e.g. Anglo-Catholics).

Not only that, but I think that looking for particular quotations from the Church Fathers or indeed anyone else that's relevant to the issues of ecumenical dialogue is a mistake. You can't hope to understand the Fathers from isolated passages. It's essential to read their works properly, from start to finish. Only in that way can you get a sense of the real minds of the Fathers and the way that they thought. Doing that will show that, regardless of the particular positions adopted, most of the Fathers were very distant from most Protestants in spirit and much closer to Catholics, but still quite different from modern Catholicism. But even that is a huge generalisation - about the Fathers as well as about Protestants and Catholics.

How common was belief in Transubstantiation in the Early Church?

It depends on what you mean by "transubstantiation". The technical language of substance and accidents was not used by early Christians, since it is Aristotelian and they were mostly Platonists who hated Aristotle. However, the basic idea that the bread and wine are transformed into the body and blood of Christ even while they appear unchanged can be found in various patristic writers.

You can find what appears to be this idea as early as Justin Martyr. But it seems clearer in later writers such as Ambrose of Milan (para. 125) and Gregory of Nyssa. It is taught quite clearly by Cyril of Jerusalem.

I would say overall that there aren't all that many patristic passages on the subject, but when it is mentioned, rival views seem not to be discussed. I would infer from this that at least by the fourth century Christians generally believed that the bread and wine at the Eucharist were genuinely transformed into the body and blood of Christ, and certainly this was an old belief by then. One can also find good support for veneration of the Eucharist at an early date. Ignatius of Antioch famously calls the Eucharist the "medicine of immortality". Tertullian testifies that the bread from the Eucharist was taken home and venerated, to be tasted before eating anything else.

Are there any such thing as a Protestant denomination which totally rejects Calvinism?

I should think that the average Anglo-Catholic or high Anglican churchman would reject everything to do with Calvinism. Some of them are more Catholic than the Catholics.

When were the first "Calvinistic" viewpoints advocated (Technically the word would not have been used until Calvin, but I'm talking about the general idea of Predestination, or in other words, that people might not really have free will.)

One might argue that Augustine of Hippo could be interpreted in that way (in fact, it was just such an interpretation of Augustine that led to the Jansenist movement - the Jansenists were basically Catholics who believed that Calvinism was right about some things). But I think that would be a tendentious argument. The most obvious "proto-Calvinist" in your sense would be Gottschalk of Orbais, who was condemned in the ninth century for his belief in double predestination. Other figures at the time, notably Ratramnus of Corbie, argued that Gottschalk was right (at least to some degree).

If you were going to build a theology based on a scholar's perspective of what you feel Christianity teaches, what would it look like?

I'm afraid I don't think that that's possible either. There is no such thing as "what Christianity teaches". I've often said that I don't think there is any single doctrine - not even the existence of God - which every single person who calls themselves a Christian believes. When you study Christian history properly one of the main things you discover is that Christianity adapts itself to every culture it touches and changes dramatically, sometimes almost beyond all recognition. Any attempt to summarise the basic teaching of Christianity is invariably a reflection of one's own background and prejudices. If I were to do it, I would instinctively present a "Christian theology" emphasising social justice, liberal values, and a high-minded concern for the truth - but that would be more a reflection of my own values than a real assessment of what's really basic to Christian teaching. I'm sure something similar would be true of anyone.

Romans 13 is generally interpreted as saying that all worldly governments are ordained by God and so resisting their authority is resisting the authority of God.

However, I've also seen it argued that the passage really means the opposite: the higher powers mentioned here are The Church (or its leaders, or its doctrine, or God's commandments) which God has ordained and which must be followed. However, Worldly Governments (or at least some of them, those hostile to godliness) are not ordained by God, and are thus have no authority over us.

Which interpretation do you think is more valid?

I must say I haven't heard of the alternative interpretation that you mention, so perhaps I can't evaluate it properly. But it sounds pretty implausible to me. That is for two reasons. The first is that the plain meaning of Paul's text is surely to civil authorities, as he mentions the wielding of the sword and the paying of taxes. So to interpret it as referring to ecclesiastical authorities, there would have to be some very good reason in the text - but I see no such reason. The second is that ecclesiastical authorities of the kind that would be implied if that were the meaning of this text did not exist in Paul's day, and he does not talk about them elsewhere. E.g. 1 Corinthians 14:26-33 describes quite a democratic approach to worship. 1 Corinthians 11:18-34, on the Eucharist services, appears to envisage no-one actually in charge at all. The only place in Paul's undisputed letters where he mentions any church authorities at all is Philippians 1:1, which mentions bishops and deacons, a puzzling reference not found anywhere else in his writings (and which some think inauthentic). Therefore, for Paul suddenly to start talking about how the church authorities are ordained by God and how everyone must obey them would be wildly out of character with the picture of church organisation presupposed by his writings in general.

To add to MagisterCultuum's post, Romans 13 also refers to the government punishing those who do evil and praising those who do good. I've always interpreted this to mean that if a government doesn't even do this at a basic level (Nobody does it PERFECTLY but most governments do it to a point, a few incredibly warped governments do the opposite) they lose their legitimacy and can legitimately be overthrown or disobeyed. Does this argument hold any water in your view?

I'm afraid this doesn't reflect what the text says at all, at least as far as I can tell. There is no indication there that the legitimacy of the authorities is conditional. Paul doesn't say "Just governments are legitimate"; he doesn't even say "Governments are just, and this why they are legitimate". He says quite baldly that governments are legitimate. See Romans 13:1:

Paul said:
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God.

That seems to me to be saying quite unequivocally that all governing authorities are put there by God. Compare John 1:3 on a different subject:

John said:
All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being.

No-one could interpret the John passage as allowing for the existence of things that came into being without the Logos - it is absolutely explicit that there are no such things. Similarly, the parallel wording that Paul uses seems explicitly to preclude the existence of any governing authorities that are not instituted by God.

Certainly Paul then goes on to say that the governing authorities are oppressive only to the wicked and they encourage only the good. We may well question the truth of this, but I'd say that Paul's argument here shows only that Paul was rather naive when it came to the nature of government, not that he thought there were conditions for the legitimacy of government. I see nothing in the text to think otherwise.
 
I know you have touched on this, but I haven't seen it in a single post before. Could you list the various books of the New Testament along with a brief description of what position they generaly support and why scholars believe that (and whether or not the person who is said to have written it actualy wrote it)?
 
I'm not sure to what extent that's the case. Palamas was not, as far as I know, particularly anti-Aristotelian, although he certain opposed the form of Aristotelianism espoused by Barlaam. But I don't know that he was particularly Aristotelian either.
He certainly had his problems Neoplatonism, given his thoughts about the World Soul.

I'm just not sufficiently familiar with eastern European theologians to designate a favourite!
I've heard very good things about St. Justin Popivic, and I like what I've read of his. Do you have any thoughts about him?


It only works if you assume that God is not really omniscient and omnipotent.
Does it? That was obviously Bender's problem, but I could conceive of an omniscient and omnipotent god who for whatever reason thought it would be best if people didn't depend on him completely. Of course, this wouldn't mesh very well with God as He's presented in the Gospels, so the argument wouldn't have much place in Christian apologetics, but it's an interesting one.

Why are African Anglicans so much more conservative than those elsewhere?
 
Plotinus said:
First, even if one could produce a simple codification of Jesus' teachings, it wouldn't follow that this is a "simple how-to guide to be a Christian". Because being a Christian isn't simply a matter of following Jesus' ethical teachings; it also involves believing things about Jesus.
Is there a name for people who follow Jesus' ethical teachings but are not Christian?
 
I've heard very good things about St. Justin Popivic, and I like what I've read of his. Do you have any thoughts about him?

I'm afraid I don't really know anything about him.

Does it? That was obviously Bender's problem, but I could conceive of an omniscient and omnipotent god who for whatever reason thought it would be best if people didn't depend on him completely.

Certainly, but then you're talking about a completely different solution from that of Futurama. As I understand it, the point of the Bender-as-God episode was that Bender was unable, despite his uncharacteristically good intentions and best efforts, to look after his worshippers. So if you were to make a real theodicy along the same lines, you'd be explaining the existence of suffering by saying that God lacks the foresight or ability to prevent it. But to do that would seem to involve denying that God is omniscient and omnipotent. Whereas what you suggest is a theodicy that argues that it's best for God not to prevent suffering. That's quite different from arguing that God tries to prevent suffering but is unable to do so.

Why are African Anglicans so much more conservative than those elsewhere?

The simple answer is because the Anglican church in Africa (like most of the Protestant churches there) is a young church, which means that it was founded relatively recently by overwhelmingly evangelical missionaries. So the kind of Christianity that was preached to the first converts was what we might call "conservative". Moreover, African converts in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries enthusiastically accepted the supernatural elements of Christianity because they were similar to elements in traditional African religions. That is why African Christianity typically has rather different emphases than the Christianity we're used to - certainly in many respects it resembles western "conservative" Christianity but in other respects it does not, such as in its openness to the occurrence of miracles right now and its tendency to polygamy. There is also the huge influence of Pentecostalism and the AICs (African Initiated Churches) which are influenced by it, and which also stress supernaturalism to a degree that goes beyond what we'd think of as "conservative". This is why although there are similarities between African "conservatives" and western ones, and they will ally with each other against common opponents such as liberals, they are not really as similar as they appear at first.

Is there a name for people who follow Jesus' ethical teachings but are not Christian?

I don't think so. I'm not sure that many people do follow Jesus' ethical teachings - at least, not successfully.
 
Certainly, but then you're talking about a completely different solution from that of Futurama. As I understand it, the point of the Bender-as-God episode was that Bender was unable, despite his uncharacteristically good intentions and best efforts, to look after his worshippers. So if you were to make a real theodicy along the same lines, you'd be explaining the existence of suffering by saying that God lacks the foresight or ability to prevent it. But to do that would seem to involve denying that God is omniscient and omnipotent. Whereas what you suggest is a theodicy that argues that it's best for God not to prevent suffering. That's quite different from arguing that God tries to prevent suffering but is unable to do so.

Well, a better Futurama-based theodicy would be based on Bender's interactions with the God nebula after all of Bender's worshipers destroyed themselves. Wiki sums it up:
Bender soon meets a cosmic entity who is alluded to be God and recounts his experiences. During this time, he tells Bender that he had much the same experience with helping those who pray to him, and has long since given up directly interfering in his worshipers lives. He instead uses a "light touch", which he compares to safecracking, pickpocketing, or insurance fraud. Bender asks if he can be sent back to earth, and God claims that he does not know where Earth is.
Meanwhile, Fry and Leela search for a way to locate Bender, which leads them to a sect of monks who use a radio telescope to search for God in space. Leela overpowers and locks up the pacifist monks and Fry spends the next three days searching for Bender. Leela eventually convinces him to give up the search, considering the odds of finding Bender astronomical. Fry spins the telescope's trackball and finds God by accident as he wishes out loud he had Bender back. God hears him and flings Bender towards Earth, where he lands just outside of the monastery, causing Leela to exclaim that "This is, by a wide margin, the least likely thing that has ever happened." Bender quickly recounts his tale ("First I was God, then I met God!") and Fry boasts they "climbed up a mountain and locked up some monks," which reminds Leela that they never let them out. Fry is reluctant to return to the monastery and claims that their God will surely help them. Bender tells them that God cannot be counted on for anything, and demands they rescue the monks themselves. The camera zooms out from Earth, past planets, through space, and back to God, who chuckles and repeats his earlier advice to Bender: "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
He may choose to act this way because he has similar limitations to Bender, but I don't believe his motivations are ever directly explained.
 
At what point was Papal Infallibility first used? And did Christians theoretically believe in the power before that.

Who has a more valid claim to Apostolic Succession (In Your View) the Catholics, or the Protestants?

Do you think Early Catholics (400 years or less, although obviously it would differ for each one) if they were reborn today would join the modern Catholic Church, assuming they held the same beliefs?

What are the earliest writings of the Church Fathers for or against the idea of infant baptism?
 
The idea of Papal Infallibility was developed in the middle ages, but was not defined as dogma until 1870 at the First Vatican Council.

In 1075 Pope Gregory VII claimed "That the Roman church has never erred; nor will it err to all eternity, the Scripture bearing witness." He did not however claim the infallibility of his own ex cathedra declarations.

In the 14th century, Pope John XXII explicitly denied papal infallibility and condemned it as a false doctrine of satanic origin. He did not use the formal language anathematizing those who disagree though, so modern Catholics consider this papal bull to be only an expression of a personal opinion and not an ex cathedra infallible declaration on the doctrine of the church.


The first time that Papal Infallibility was explicitly invoked was in 1854, when Pope Pius IX used it to establish The Immaculate Conception of Mary as a dogma. Pius IX is also the pope who convened Vatican I in order to establish the dogma of his own infallibility.


The only other time that Papal Infallibility was officially invoked was in 1950, when Pope Pius XII used it to define the doctrine of The Assumption of Mary.


Today, whether or not a statement is considered infallible is determined by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which has not declared anything infallible recently. While the Church maintains no official list of infallible papal statements, catholic historians tend to identify only these seven as such:

"Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;

Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;

Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;

Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;

Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;

Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;

Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.
 
Your sort of looking at it in the wrong way.

Papal infallibility is seen as an expression of the infallibility of the Church rather than some separate thing. This infallibility of the Church means that when the pope is making an ex-cathedra pronouncement he is preserved from error, because if he would be in error that would be leading the Church into falsehood in contradiction to the infallibility of the Church as promised by Christ when he said he would be with us always, that he would not leave us orphans etc etc.

So its not really anything distinct from the infallibility of the Church in general, but rather a specific expression of that same infallibility within the confines of the magisterium of the successor of Peter. So although the specific dogma surrounding the pope on this matter developed and was defined through time, it is simply a deepening understanding of the infallibility of the Church through time. Indeed this developmental deepening of understanding is not contradictory biblically to Catholicism, for Christ indeed did promise to send the Holy Spirit to reveal all things as per John 14:26.
 
Also, in the old testament we see that the people of Israel wanted a King, and the prophet Samuel was very much against the idea. When God relents and ordains Saul it sounds a bit like giving them a monarchy was punishment. Also, Hosea 8:4 says "They have made kings, and not by Me, They have made princes, and I have not known," which seems to imply that at least some absolute monarchs were not given authority by God.

Well if you look at the way how some of the rulers of Israel and Judea ruled, then they most definitely ruled in a manner that was not pleasing to God. SO when God is saying that they have not had the right kings, because God should be the one who made the choice, since that is what he did in the beginning, but the reality is that God gave the Israelites a monarchy since they did not fully trust God like they should have. And since they disobeyed God they got punished for it, when he sent the Babylonians and the the Assyrians to take the people from the land just like he said he would in Leviticus 20:22 Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. This was the whole pint of those laws in Leveiticus 20 to warn the Israelis of foloowing the lead of the Canaanites, but they did not heed those warnings and God punished them. So while you are trying to disprove rule of people, the passage is actually disproving those who do not rule according to God's standards. So often we see in the history books of the OT that "certain king caused Israel to sin against God", so God would have to punish them for causing the nation to sin. God always has held the rulers of a nation to a higher standard than the rest of the people. Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people. And that is what Hosea was telling the nation and warning them what God will do.
 
Well, a better Futurama-based theodicy would be based on Bender's interactions with the God nebula after all of Bender's worshipers destroyed themselves. Wiki sums it up:
He may choose to act this way because he has similar limitations to Bender, but I don't believe his motivations are ever directly explained.

Oh, how that Wiki extract summarises everything that's wrong with Wiki, from the misused pompous language ("alluded to be God") to the po-faced seriousness of recounting an episode of Futurama, for God's sake, as if it's something from Homer. (I mean the poet.)

Anyway, if the actions of God himself aren't explained at all, I'd say there's no theodicy going on. I would interpret the episode to be saying that God's reasons must be related in some way to Bender's experience, and to be at least implying that God permits suffering (or history to play out in a way that causes suffering) because if he tried to interfere the results would be similar to those Bender found, i.e. worse than if he were to leave everyone alone. And in that case I think my point still stands, that it's a theodicy that must at some level deny divine omnipotence or omniscience.

At what point was Papal Infallibility first used? And did Christians theoretically believe in the power before that.

It looks like this one got answered. I would add that there was very hefty disagreement about this issue among Catholics in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. For example, Jacques Bossuet was a major Catholic theologian of this period who argued very strenuously indeed for the infallibility of the Catholic Church. He was prepared to discuss the union of Catholics with Protestants (he exchanged letters with Leibniz on this matter), but only if they began with Protestants admitting that the Catholic Church was infallible, so they didn't get very far. However, Bossuet was equally adamant that the notion of papal infallibility was false and he argued very vehemently against fellow Catholics who defended it. In fact French Catholics in the early modern period tended to be opposed to attempts to strengthen the power and authority of the papacy, and they believed that the infallibility of the church resided not in the Pope but in the bishops in general. This tendency was known as Gallicanism, at least in France, and also Erastianism. The opposite tendency - to emphasise the authority of the Pope - is known as Ultramontanism ("beyond-the-mountains-ism", because from a French point of view the Pope is located on the other side of the Alps). The formulation of the doctrine of papal infallibility at the First Vatican Council in 1870 can be seen as the triumph of Ultramontanism over Erastianism, and it resulted in the departure from the church of various Catholics who were not prepared to accept it, most notably Ignaz von Döllinger and others who called themselves "Old Catholics" and who still exist.

Who has a more valid claim to Apostolic Succession (In Your View) the Catholics, or the Protestants?

There can be no question about this - obviously the Catholics. The Catholic bishops of cities whose churches go back to apostolic times are in direct succession to the apostles, at least to the extent that anyone in apostolic times could be called "bishops" at all. Whatever the case, Catholic bishops are representatives of the same organisation as the first bishops - no matter how much that organisation may have changed since then. I don't see any way that a Protestant could argue to have greater claim to apostolic succession than a Catholic - the only reasonable course for the Protestant to take is to admit that the Catholic enjoys apostolic succession but argue that this doesn't matter, or at least doesn't matter as much as other things.

Do you think Early Catholics (400 years or less, although obviously it would differ for each one) if they were reborn today would join the modern Catholic Church, assuming they held the same beliefs?

That's an unanswerable question. Some of them probably would and some of them probably wouldn't. There's also a huge difference between a Christian from the late fourth century and one from the first century, which would make a difference to their response to this question. I also think that more of them would be Orthodox rather than anything else. But as I've said before, it's very hard to talk reasonably of what ancient people would do today, because if you wrench them out of their ancient context they just wouldn't make sense. If (say) Tertullian were alive today I don't think he would even comprehend the state of the Christian churches today, let alone be able to decide which one he would join.

What are the earliest writings of the Church Fathers for or against the idea of infant baptism?

Irenaeus: Against Heresies II 22 4 (an implicit recognition of infant baptism)

Tertullian: On Baptism 18 (the first explicit discussion, advising against infant baptism)

Cyprian: Letter 59 (arguing that not only may infants be baptised, but they may be baptised within a week of birth)

Those are the earliest explicit references; there is other, indirect evidence for the widespread practice as well. E.g. Polycarp of Smyrna, who was earlier than any of the sources mentioned above, claimed to have been a Christian for 86 years - so unless he was over a hundred years old he must have regarded himself as having been a Christian from infancy, and that would at least imply that he had been baptised as an infant.

The classic work on this subject (very old now but still relevant), if you're interested in investigating it properly, is Infant Baptism in the First Four Centuries by Joachim Jeremias. Jeremias argued that the practice was near-universal in this period, and another scholar named Kurt Aland wrote a book entitled Did the Early Church Baptize Infants? in which he argued that Jeremias was wrong and infant baptism was not widely practised before the third century. Jeremias wrote a reply to this entitled The Origins of Infant Baptism. All three of these (they are not long) would be worth reading if you want to see the evidence and make up your own mind.
 
Your sort of looking at it in the wrong way.

Papal infallibility is seen as an expression of the infallibility of the Church rather than some separate thing. This infallibility of the Church means that when the pope is making an ex-cathedra pronouncement he is preserved from error, because if he would be in error that would be leading the Church into falsehood in contradiction to the infallibility of the Church as promised by Christ when he said he would be with us always, that he would not leave us orphans etc etc.

So its not really anything distinct from the infallibility of the Church in general, but rather a specific expression of that same infallibility within the confines of the magisterium of the successor of Peter. So although the specific dogma surrounding the pope on this matter developed and was defined through time, it is simply a deepening understanding of the infallibility of the Church through time. Indeed this developmental deepening of understanding is not contradictory biblically to Catholicism, for Christ indeed did promise to send the Holy Spirit to reveal all things as per John 14:26.

How do we get from 'Christ promised he would be with us always and would not leave us orphans' to the infallibility of specific propositions? Surely Christ could be with you always even if you had an imperfect understanding of exactly how the Immaculate Conception worked (and, by the way, if Mary could be born free of Original Sin, why couldn't we all?) or why Jansenism was wrong?
 
There can be no question about this .

No, I'm just posting crap, I meant to write the Orthodox, not the Protestants:p

Protestants don't usually believe in Apostolic Succession anyways.

So, with that in mind, who has a better claim, the Catholics or the Orthodox, in your view?
 
How do we get from 'Christ promised he would be with us always and would not leave us orphans' to the infallibility of specific propositions? Surely Christ could be with you always even if you had an imperfect understanding of exactly how the Immaculate Conception worked (and, by the way, if Mary could be born free of Original Sin, why couldn't we all?) or why Jansenism was wrong?

Firstly, in Catholic (and indeed orthodox) theology. It is the Church that is the ultimate source of authority, not the bible.

Secondly to the quotes in question, it is held that the Church would not be led into error as part of Christs promises, as to do so would be for him to leave us orphans and let us fall away from the truth (which Christ promised the Holy Spirit would reveal to His Church) into error.

It would be a renunciation of the promises to lead the Church to truth, and those promises the say that Christ would always be with His Church, as error ultimately leads one away from God.
 
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