SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Are we concerned that Axemen and warriors fair very poorly against bowmen?
Yes. Yes we are. But for now we're mostly just crossing our fingers.

@SH: I'm coming around to getting Hunting and maybe another missing tech after we get CoL. If we just chop out the AP without Math then there's no big rush for that tech, other than getting it done in time to Prophet-bulb Civil Service without delay, and we have some slack for that. So yeah, Hunting would certainly help Bombay and Vijay, and maybe (if the Toku's don't give us trouble) we could whip out another settler and get that deer/cow spot going. If we've met someone who would trade, maybe we could do Alphabet and trade for Hunting, etc. instead. Yeah, yeah, I'm liking this. :) But I still prefer going for CoL according to my plan until something better comes along.
 
I guess one advantage of earlier hunting is that it lets us divert to archery in case Bowman DOW us. I mean... if we really don't care about getting CoL first. I suspect XCal's nice MM plan will come to naught as we find ourselves at war... but its always best to assume we will get the luck we need to win the laurels, than start planning for defeat. So yeah, proceed with the plan, but keep in mind our alternatives for when things probably go horribly wrong.

Enough of my monday-morning cheer...:lol:
 
Cool. :) Trystero, if you still have your saves from then, could you take a look at the Demographics and/or Religious advisor and see if you can confirm or add to this? I'm not sure what to look for, but at least the Religion Influence stats. Wouldn't there also be a note in the running game log about "Islam has spread to ..." or must we have "mapped out" that city to get the message?

Sorry for the delayed response. I had an unexpectedly busy weekend with the family.

For safety, I deleted most of the saves from my turnset after the accidental warrior move and we had moved on to SH's turnset. Looking at our posted saves, I am agreement with your analysis that Islam has not spread beyond an initial, geographically constrained, city. I don't know if religion spread would be noted in the game log if we haven't yet met the AI in question, but I am fairly certain I saw no "religion spread" notices during my set (I was carefully watching the notifications), and the turn log supports that belief.

I should have a chance to look over your PPP carefully tomorrow night.
 
Some quick observations:

At 100% research, we could get Hunting and Archery in 2 turns each. If we meet other AI, that might decrease further. Since we are worried primarily about Bowmen from Hamurragawa, and he is furthest from us, we could keep a warrior up by his border to watch for wandering stacks. If we do see him headed our way, we can adjust our research accordingly.

And, looking carefully at the last save, I agree that Toku's stack in Osaka is worrisome.
 
Question - Given what we know about the AIs research rates over the course of the game, could any AI have come up with the 1872 beakers necessary for divine right by turn 40?
 
Question - Given what we know about the AIs research rates over the course of the game, could any AI have come up with the 1872 beakers necessary for divine right by turn 40?

Is DR 1872 beakers??? We know Theocracy was granted an AI at the start because Islam was founded before Christianity. It is possible that a GPro or two were provided to bulb DR from there. Or it might be possible to grant beakers toward a tech in worldbuilder without it being completed... but I don't know how that would be done. So I suspect more that it was at least part bulbed by a GPerson that was granted. Or if someone had a temple or obelisk and generated a GPro themselves... but this is less likely since AI would not run GPro at low population unless the land was really really crap.

If you granted an AI a GPro, you could not guarantee that they would not bulb Polytheism unless you borked that bulb path. Probably by granting Theo, maybe the other techs as well. In fact, all AI could start with Poly, and then only we would be able to found Hindu... and we should have done farming first :lol:
 
Question - Given what we know about the AIs research rates over the course of the game, could any AI have come up with the 1872 beakers necessary for divine right by turn 40?

Using the "base" beakers listed in Anion's guide, Divine Right is 1200 beakers. The factor of 1.56 to get 1872 for our game comes from factors of 1.2 and 1.3 for map size and difficulty level. Now compare 1200 beakers by T40 with our tech progress:
Code:
Tech    Turn    Beakers
Poly    14      100
Ag      21      60
AH      33      100 ____about 336 beakers by T40.
BW      44      120
Wheel   50      60
Mason   54      80
Mono    61      120
PH      63      60
Writing 68      120
                -----
                820

[D'oh. I've edited this after taking into account that the AI don't have the 1.3x factor for Emperor level...]

That doesn't account for prereq bonuses, but you get the idea. My guess is that Neil gave the AI a Great Prophet (worth 1000 beakers, right?) and thru testing was confident that the AI would bulb it toward DR rather than settle it. 336/1.3 + 1000 = 1258, not far from 1200*1.2=1440 that an AI will need. DR also has two prereqs (which give a beaker discount of 20% each?), unlike most of our techs so far (only 1 prereq), so the AI will probably need a bit less than the pseudo-1440 that I've listed. Of course, Neil could also have gifted the AI with a library, settled Great Sci, etc. to speed things up, but those advantages would keep on giving throughout the game, rather than giving a 1-shot leg-up, and probably make it too hard for us to compete. I'm guessing...
 
My post above was Xposted with kcd's. But let's look at it from another angle. The AI needs 1200*(map factor=1.2)=1440 beakers for DR. He has a capital city giving 8 commerce per turn. He puts all of it toward research and has the 1.4x bonus for having 2 prereqs --> 11bpt (rounding down, as the game does). He bulbs the Prophet, giving 1000 beakers and leaving 440. 440/11=40 turns. Voila! If this is the explanation, it means that the AI has no tiles other than the city center generating any commerce.
 
My post above was Xposted with kcd's. But let's look at it from another angle. The AI needs 1200*(map factor=1.2)=1440 beakers for DR. He has a capital city giving 8 commerce per turn. He puts all of it toward research and has the 1.4x bonus for having 2 prereqs --> 11bpt (rounding down, as the game does). He bulbs the Prophet, giving 1000 beakers and leaving 440. 440/11=40 turns. Voila! If this is the explanation, it means that the AI has no tiles other than the city center generating any commerce.

Was a prophet born/created?

I ask this because we are expending a large amount of early game resources to build the AP ASAP assuming some AI has Theology. But do we know this?
 
Neil could gift the prophet to the AI via worldbuilder, and we would not get a notice of birth.

I don't think there's any way for an AI to research Divine Right without first possessing Theology, is there?
 
In the Age of Ice scenario a late game tech is tied to a spot on the map. You run over the spot, you get the tech, no prerequisites required.
 
Quick question. Does no vasals imply no colonies?

If so, all Tokus implies it will be tough to get someone to vote for us in a dilpo vote.
 
Was a prophet born/created? I ask this because we are expending a large amount of early game resources to build the AP ASAP assuming some AI has Theology. But do we know this?

I'm pretty sure there's never been a "standard" Civ IV game (including the HOF, BUFFY, and other xOTM mods) that included the trip-over-a-tile-and-get-something-cool feature and would bet a lot of money that's not what happened in this game. The AI that discovered Divine Right didn't do so until T40, and without the FFH-type trick he must have done it the usual way, which is having any necessary prereqs (both Theology and Monarchy) and either trading with somebody else (which is conceivable but unspeakably evil, even for Neil ;)) or researching it himself by some combination of brute teching and bulbing.

It's very likely that bulbing was involved (which gives 1000 beakers plus a population-dep term for all GPs other than Great Sci's) because otherwise it means the AI has pretty awesome research capabilities--so good that we'd be doomed. The most likely GP is a Prophet because DR is one of his "earliest" techs. If the AI does not have Mysticism then he can't bulb Meditation (1st in the GP bulbing list) or Polytheism (2nd). If he doesn't have Med or Poly then he can't bulb Priesthood (#3) or Mono (#4). Theology (#5) needs both Writing and Mono. But if he was given Theology and Monarchy to start then he can bulb Divine Right (#6), therefore he must have had Theo, Monarchy (and conceivably Writing or Mono but not both), and now DR.

IF, however, the AI started with Mysticism, then he'd also have to have Med, Poly (otherwise they'd be bulbed before DR). Monotheism would be skipped if he doesn't have Masonry, and without Mono, Theology is skipped. So another possibility is that the AI has Mysticism, Meditation, Polytheism, Theology, Monarchy, and DR--and either Monotheism or neither Mono nor Masonry. None of which probably matters. Uh, what were we talking about??

[BTW, a Great Artist could also bulb DR if the AI already had Mysticism, Polytheism, Monotheism (or no Masonry), Theology, and Monarchy.]

Ah, right. Given the above flawless logic (?) we can be sure that at least one AI (and probably only one) has Theology, and has had it since the beginning of the game. I don't know how the AI chooses what to build, so it's a big question mark on how long we have to build the AP. If it we are not a big race, that would be great, because as you say, there's a lot of stuff we'd rather build first.

Fortunately, we don't need to commit to the AP yet, and the Toku's will probably trash all our plans anyway. How about if somebody plays to the beginning of T73 following my plan? I think everybody is pretty comfortable with those 5 turns. Let's see what the Toku's do.

Shall we take a vote? I am green. I don't care who plays but I am available.

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@SH. No vassals means no colonies. So no friendly beneficiaries of magnanimously granted independence. But we can probably get a friendly beneficiary of our tech-gifting.
 
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