SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Xcalibrator · Mar 9, 2012

I hate my life. Played 1 more turn and no combat so far, but things are getting pretty ugly around Drona. Up north I retreated Axe1 onto the wheat. The barb axe advanced SE across the river but the archer disappeared. I think we should continue with the planned retreat and wait for the axe to attack us. By Drona...

The stack of axe (C1), 2 spears (C2), and archer (Drill1) crossed the river and are south of Drona, next to the gold.
A new Jap axe (C2) is now SE of the city on the hill, another axe (C1, cover) is SE of that, and another axe (C1) has joined the 2 archers in Osaka.
Countering them in Drona we have: axe(5XP), axe(3XP), axe(C1), and 2 warriors.

We have 126 gold and can research Hunting in 2 turns and 1 more turn for Archery (I think) and/or upgrade a warrior for 80 gold. We are still in OrgRel but can revolt to Theoc this turn. Delhi can 1-whip an axe (3XP), Bolly can 2-whip its library and give enough overflow to finish an axe the turn after that if we stay in OrgRel this turn, and Drona can start an axe and 1-whip it next turn.

I am afraid. :eek:

I think we need to protect Drona's gold. We can attack the main (4-unit) stack, which only has 1 axe, but not wipe it out. We might (30%?) lose an axe on the first attack (I'm thinking we use the 5XPs for C1 and +25% melee) but the others should be fine. Should we post a warrior on the gold to prevent/hurt Toku's 4th unit from taking it? Maybe the 2nd warrior if our other axes survive in decent shape to defend Drona? We need to whip an axe in Delhi and prep another in Drona. In Bolly it will be fastest (and allow time to revolt to Theoc) to 2-whip the library and then build an axe. Or we could go straight to axes and pump them out without whipping every 2 turns (3 turns for the first). Save has been uploaded. We need to talk.

Spoiler Upload log :

Spoiler BUFFY log, starting back at T74 :

AAA · Mar 9, 2012

Xcalibrator said:
I hate my life. Played 1 more turn and no combat so far, but things are getting pretty ugly around Drona. Up north I retreated Axe1 onto the wheat. The barb axe advanced SE across the river but the archer disappeared. I think we should continue with the planned retreat and wait for the axe to attack us. By Drona...

The stack of axe (C1), 2 spears (C2), and archer (Drill1) crossed the river and are south of Drona, next to the gold.

A new Jap axe (C2) is now SE of the city on the hill, another axe (C1, cover) is SE of that, and another axe (C1) has joined the 2 archers in Osaka.

Countering them in Drona we have: axe(5XP), axe(3XP), axe(C1), and 2 warriors.

We have 126 gold and can research Hunting in 2 turns and 1 more turn for Archery (I think) and/or upgrade a warrior for 80 gold. We are still in OrgRel but can revolt to Theoc this turn. Delhi can 1-whip an axe (3XP), Bolly can 2-whip its library and give enough overflow to finish an axe the turn after that if we stay in OrgRel this turn, and Drona can start an axe and 1-whip it next turn.

I am afraid. I think we need to protect Drona's gold. We can attack the main (4-unit) stack, which only has 1 axe, but not wipe it out. We might (30%?) lose an axe on the first attack (I'm thinking we use the 5XPs for C1 and +25% melee) but the others should be fine. Should we post a warrior on the gold to prevent/hurt Toku's 4th unit from taking it? Maybe the 2nd warrior if our other axes survive in decent shape to defend Drona? We need to whip an axe in Delhi and prep another in Drona. In Bolly it will be fastest (and allow time to revolt to Theoc) to 2-whip the library and then build an axe. Or we could go straight to axes and pump them out without whipping every 2 turns (3 turns for the first). Save has been uploaded. We need to talk.

Spoiler Upload log :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 975 BC to 925 BC:

Turn 76, 975 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Delhi!
Turn 76, 975 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Drona!
Turn 76, 975 BC: Drona has grown to size 4.
Turn 76, 975 BC: Drona can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 28ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 15 turns.
Turn 76, 975 BC: Tokugawa refuses to talk.
Turn 76, 975 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa, Hammuragawa.
Turn 76, 975 BC: Bollywood will grow to size 6 on the next turn.

Turn 77, 950 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Drona!
Turn 77, 950 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Drona!
Turn 77, 950 BC: Bollywood has grown to size 6.
Turn 77, 950 BC: Bollywood can hurry Library for 2⇴ with 18ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 77, 950 BC: Drona can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 5ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 14 turns.
Turn 77, 950 BC: Tokugawa refuses to talk.
Turn 77, 950 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa, Hammuragawa.
Turn 77, 950 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Drona. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 78, 925 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Drona!
Turn 78, 925 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Bollywood!
Turn 78, 925 BC: Drona can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 27ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 23 turns.
Turn 78, 925 BC: Delhi can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 5ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 18 turns.

Spoiler BUFFY log, starting back at T74 :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 74/500 (1040 BC) [05-Mar-2012 19:54:32]
Delhi begins: Work Boat (10 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 31 per turn, 15 in the bank

After End Turn:
Bollywood's borders expand
Delhi finishes: Work Boat
Bombay's borders expand

Turn 75/500 (1000 BC) [05-Mar-2012 19:57:14]
Vijayanagara founded
Vijayanagara begins: Granary (60 turns)

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 75/500 (1000 BC) [05-Mar-2012 20:20:38]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 27 per turn, 46 in the bank

After End Turn:
Bollywood finishes: Granary
Drona grows to size 4
Bombay finishes: Axeman

Other Player Actions:
Tokugawa (Japan) declares war on Gandhi (India)

Turn 76/500 (975 BC) [05-Mar-2012 20:20:39]
Bollywood begins: Library (6 turns)
Bombay begins: Warrior (4 turns)

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 76/500 (975 BC) [08-Mar-2012 20:45:03]
Drona begins: Axeman (7 turns)
Bombay begins: Axeman (9 turns)
A Cottage was built near Delhi
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 27 per turn, 73 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Delhi
Bollywood grows to size 6
Delhi finishes: Granary

Turn 77/500 (950 BC) [08-Mar-2012 20:55:59]
Delhi begins: Axeman (12 turns)
Axeman 2 (Bombay) promoted: Combat I

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 77/500 (950 BC) [09-Mar-2012 20:41:37]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 26 per turn, 100 in the bank

After End Turn:
Drona finishes: Axeman

Turn 78/500 (925 BC) [09-Mar-2012 20:41:39]
Research begun: Hunting (2 Turns)
Research begun: Archery (2 Turns)

Are a couple of screen shots possible?

Trystero · Mar 10, 2012

AAA said:
Are a couple of screen shots possible?

Here you go:

Barb situation:

Spoiler :

Drona:

Spoiler :

I thought this might be interesting:

Spoiler :

Hammy has a 6 hammer hill. So that is either copper or iron.

AAA · Mar 10, 2012

Trystero said:
Here you go:

Barb situation:

Spoiler :

Drona:

Spoiler :

I thought this might be interesting:

Spoiler :

Hammy has a 6 hammer hill. So that is either copper or iron.

This is a very bad situation, we are at .5 of Toku, he is only going to keep coming and coming. Turn everything off in terms of research until all possibly useful warriors have been turned into axes. Then everything on until we have archery.

In the north bring both axes in to the city, and hope the barb goes away. Has any barb entered our borders yet, or have we heard the thump thump thump noise of a barracks as a barb approaches our borders yet? The worker in the north should be running to Bollywood to clearcut for units. Drona's worker should be clearcutting for units. Any units in Bollywood shoud be running for Drona.

If you are unhappy playing it out, I'll play it out. I lied before, if you push games hard for HOF results, you get a fair amount of practice at scramble war, which is what this
is.

All in all there is a pretty good chance we are going to lose Drona.

vra379971 · Mar 10, 2012

Yes, Drona looks dead.

SteelHorse · Mar 10, 2012

If (and its a big if) we can get enough Axes (6-7) to Drona in time we should be able to save it. It looks like Toku's main stack is there and the rest will be a stream of individual units which we should be able to handle. The main stack has 1 problem unit the Axe and we can't let the Axe get to the gold. And I agree with all of AAA's point in switching to all out unit spam mode and upgrading warriors. And yes Theo please.

So two choices in Drona: 1.) Attack the stack and hope for the best. Use 3 Axes leaving one upgraded axe and one warrior to protect Drona. Or 2.) Move one Axe to the gold hill and hope it survives Toku axe attack. If it does we can use the other Axes in Drona and from Bolly to take out the rest of the stack even it they get the gold. Once the stack is dead we can use the river for defense for drona and 1S Drona putting axes there and letting Toku suicide.

In the north, I would bring our axe back into the city for now. We need a third Axe up there soon. I would expect Hammy to be DoWing as well. Fun times.

Xcalibrator · Mar 10, 2012

None shall pass!!

SH posted as I started this--he says what I'd say, but more concisely.

(To be clear, SH is the concise one.) I like option 2, giving our 5XP axe C1 and Shock (+25% vs melee) and putting him on the gold. He'll have a ~50% bonus vs Toku's axe which gives us pretty good odds. We've been saving up gold for several turns and can upgrade one warrior right now. Sorry kcd, no Construction by T105.

It's not my fault!

Revolt to Theoc this turn. We can whip an axe in Drona next turn, though it'll leave the city at pop2 and pretty useless for production for awhile. Bolly is at its happiness limit, limiting whipping and growth; I'll bring up that warrior from the south for garrison happiness and leave Toku's scout unmolested. No rush on Bolly's library now. Shall I whip an axe (getting it in 2 turns) or build by hand (3 turns, but leaving more hills and population)? Eh, the first turn is the same so we'll see how things go near Drona. Delhi will whip an axe this turn and start another.

Upgrading a warrior or two in Drona to axes means very little research. I think the fighting will be pretty much over by the time we get Archery. In any case, I'll hold research at 0% for the next turn or two and see where we stand. The main decision is whether to follow SH's option #1 or #2. I vote #2. Other thoughts?

[Edit: And yes, any workers not already chopping will be put to work on that.]

AAA · Mar 10, 2012

Xcalibrator said:
Upgrading a warrior or two in Drona to axes means very little research. I think the fighting will be pretty much over by the time we get Archery. In any case, I'll hold research at 0% for the next turn or two and see where we stand. The main decision is whether to follow SH's option #1 or #2. I vote #2. Other thoughts?

Sorry, we're at .5 compared to Toku. He's not going to stop until we are close to parity or better than him, which will be no easy feat considering he has four cities producing nothing but units.

Trystero · Mar 10, 2012

Xcalibrator said:
None shall pass!!

SH posted as I started this--he says what I'd say, but more concisely. I like option 2, giving our 5XP axe C1 and Shock (+25% vs melee) and putting him on the gold. He'll have a ~50% bonus vs Toku's axe which gives us pretty good odds. We've been saving up gold for several turns and can upgrade one warrior right now. Sorry kcd, no Construction by T105. It's not my fault!

Revolt to Theoc this turn. We can whip an axe in Drona next turn, though it'll leave the city at pop2 and pretty useless for production for awhile. Bolly is at its happiness limit, limiting whipping and growth; I'll bring up that warrior from the south for garrison happiness and leave Toku's scout unmolested. No rush on Bolly's library now. Shall I whip an axe (getting it in 2 turns) or build by hand (3 turns, but leaving more hills and population)? Eh, the first turn is the same so we'll see how things go near Drona. Delhi will whip an axe this turn and start another.

Upgrading a warrior or two in Drona to axes means very little research. I think the fighting will be pretty much over by the time we get Archery. In any case, I'll hold research at 0% for the next turn or two and see where we stand. The main decision is whether to follow SH's option #1 or #2. I vote #2. Other thoughts?

[Edit: And yes, any workers not already chopping will be put to work on that.]

I agree with all of this. Green from me.

AAA said:
Sorry, we're at .5 compared to Toku. He's not going to stop until we are close to parity or better than him, which will be no easy feat considering he has four cities producing nothing but units.

Toku only has 2 cities, which might be the sole thing working in our favor.

Xcalibrator · Mar 10, 2012

Trystero said:
Toku only has 2 cities, which might be the sole thing working in our favor.

Then we have nothing in our favor. Toku has 4 cities--remember, I checked the T74 save. BUFFY shows only 2 show now (in "estimated" blue, not "certainty" white, you'll notice) because ... something changes when you're at war.

If AAA is right about Toku not relenting until we have more power than he then I'll guess we'll be at this awhile. Assuming I do not get any red lights I'd like to continue for another turn or two tonight, keeping research at 0%. In the meantime, people should think about how useful archers (25H, 3 strength, 1 first strike, 50% city defense, 25% hill defense) are compared to axes (35H, 5 strength, 50% vs melee). I'm not sure they're worth it against Japan, but if Hammy and his bowmen DoW us, then yes, we'll want Archery.

Trystero · Mar 10, 2012

Xcalibrator said:
Then we have nothing in our favor. Toku has 4 cities--remember, I checked the T74 save. BUFFY shows only 2 show now (in "estimated" blue, not "certainty" white, you'll notice) because ... something changes when you're at war.

Oh dear. I'd forgotten that discussion.

If AAA is right about Toku not relenting until we have more power than he then I'll guess we'll be at this awhile. Assuming I do not get any red lights I'd like to continue for another turn or two tonight, keeping research at 0%. In the meantime, people should think about how useful archers (25H, 3 strength, 1 first strike, 50% city defense, 25% hill defense) are compared to axes (35H, 5 strength, 50% vs melee). I'm not sure they're worth it against Japan, but if Hammy and his bowmen DoW us, then yes, we'll want Archery.

I think AAA is correct, and the Agressive AI setting might make that worse. I think researching to Archery would be worth it once we upgrade our warriors. Archers would allow us to better risk axes leaving our cities to attack. And, as you've noted, Hammy is sure to show up shortly.

High King J.J. · Mar 10, 2012

Trystero said:
Spoiler :

Hammy has a 6 hammer hill. So that is either copper or iron.

I say it's iron. Because if it were copper we'd see it. So Sledge Hammy has iron working. If he attacks with swords our axes eat them for breakfast. But archery is still advisable. I'd not upgrade a warrior in garrison duty in Bollingerwood or any other non-frontier city unless enemies threaten it.
Oh, and theocrazy is the way to go. Defend until we get cats, then take what cities we can. Maybe we could manage to pillage his copper, I forget if we have even scouted its' location. And just maybe Sledge Hammy won't attack (yeah, let's count on that, not). Once we get Toku on his knees we can get whatever techs he has researched himself and let him live, for now.
Demi-lich :king:

J.J. signing off to :sleep:

Oh, and green from me too, let's try to keep that goldmine intact. Remember we gifted gold to Hammy so losing this mine would hurt our happiness cap with all those whippings being planned...

Xcalibrator · Mar 10, 2012

I played to T81 and uploaded the save. There's good news and bad news. Toku killed his 4-stack attacking Drona and is withdrawing his other axes; there's just one axe on the hill across the river. But Vijay has fallen to barbs. The axe attacked first and just barely beat our axe (0.6 hp remaining), and the archer moved next to the city. I figured the odds were better letting our Woody2 axe fortify to 10% rather than attack the archer and be weakened. Well, the barb axe apparently got a nice promotion and attacked first the next turn, weakening us to 1.82, and the archer finished him off. The archer is at strength 1.6 and we have a 5XP axe sitting in the forest next to him (no movement left). I'd sent him straight away to the north from Delhi but he couldn't get there fast enough. Another barb axe appeared 3 tiles from Vijay on T80 and is presumably 2 tiles away now.

Given our success around Drona I'd started sending our C1/Shock axe toward Vijay last turn. He, an axe from Bolly, and another from Delhi (if we whip this turn) can reach Vijay on T85 (4 turns from now). I suggest attacking the archer with our 5XP axe next turn and retaking the city, then give him promo(s) to heal and hopefully hold off the approaching barb axe. If not, well, we retake the city with 3 axes on T85. On the bright side, we're not paying maintenance on it and we hadn't finished any buildings or invested any chops. I have a FW on the forest with the axe. He can finish the chop in 3 turns--maybe we want to put it toward walls (100% build bonus and instant 50% defense). One forest has been chopped toward Bolly and another can complete this turn. That will finish the axe under construction and can either finish another axe the turn after that, or we could put it toward finishing the library. I'm guessing people would like another axe first. Drona is in good shape, growing (a little too) fast with more mines coming on line. We can pump out enough axes to feel quite safe now, I think.

Oh, we met an Egyptian Toku, Hatsegawa, on T79. (S)he sent a scout from the east and knows Toku but not Hammy, and has 4 cities. Still no DoW from Hammy. Toku is willing to negotiate but wants Drona for peace.

I'm pretty comfortable with what to do next, apart from what to research. We have enough cash to research Hunting and Archery in 3 turns, but do we want to? I'm happy to keep playing but I've had 13 turns so maybe somebody else wants to have some fun.

Spoiler Upload log :

Spoiler BUFFY log :

vra379971 · Mar 10, 2012

....and that's why I'd advocated simply sending both to the city in the first place. *sigh*

Still decent bright side.

Unless we're in a hurry to retake it - possibly to stop from having to deal with a healed archer, a common tactic I use is take-and-retreat outside and then use city raider promos to keep just hammering away till they gas out.

For reasons of safety, I'd suggest getting archery. Archers make much better defenders than Axemen.

AAA · Mar 10, 2012

Xcalibrator said:
Oh, we met an Egyptian Toku, Hatsegawa, on T79. (S)he sent a scout from the east and knows Toku but not Hammy, and has 4 cities. Still no DoW from Hammy. Toku is willing to negotiate but wants Drona for peace.

That one going to have horses, I'd bet.
Still well done Xcal, that was by far the better city to lose :lol:

Trystero · Mar 11, 2012

AAA said:
Still well done Xcal, that was by far the better city to lose

Agreed. Well done Xcal! :goodjob:

I vote for Hunting > Archery. We are not out of the woods yet. We are still at war with Toku, and Hammuragawa could jump in at any minute. As vra379971 said, Archers are better defenders, and we need defenders until we get cats.

I have no objection for you continuing, as long as you are up to it.

Edit: And Hatsegawa isn't even Annoyed with us! :thumbsup:

Deckhand · Mar 11, 2012

Hi, back. (Was gone for a day or so). Still super busy at work. vra can take my turnset (whenever that is) (if he wants).
Green for Xcal to continue if he wants.
Yes, better that we kept Drona.
No hurry to retake Vijay, except we don't want Hambonegawa to take it.
Regarding vra's suggestion: how does the money we lose losing the city compare to the money we make recapturing it?

Xcalibrator · Mar 11, 2012

vra379971 said:
....and that's why I'd advocated simply sending both to the city in the first place. *sigh*

FWIW, if I'd done that, our Woody axe would only have gained 5% fortification compared to what he had. The key factor here was the barb axe's first attack against our other fortified axe (which sat in the city the whole time), which went against us despite 77% odds in our favor. That gave the barb axe a promo, which let him soften up our Woody2 axe for the archer. If we could be sure that trying to lure the barb to attack us across the river wouldn't work, then I goofed, but otherwise I think we just got unlucky.

[Edit: Actually, I did exactly as vra and others suggested--retreat directly to the city. I didn't bother trying to lure the barb axe to attack across the river after all--just thought about it.

]

Deckhand said:
Regarding vra's suggestion: how does the money we lose losing the city compare to the money we make recapturing it?

I'm not sure but I don't think we lose gold when a city falls. And immediately retaking it, even if it were big, would give us little if anything. Since Vijay is only pop1 and has no buildings we'll get bupkis. But I like the idea of killing the archer, retreating into the woods, and waiting for reinforcements to take it back for good. Forget what I said about maybe building walls with the chop--not useful at this point, probably never, and once we get to pop2 we can whip them in 1 turn anyway.

Looks like consensus for Hunting-->Archery ASAP. I don't see a need to upgrade any more warriors to axes (I just did it once in Drona) so research can go back to 100%. When we get Hunting we'll want to camp the northern deer. Do we want to chop it (gaining 20 hammers and revealing the 1 river-commerce) or leave it in place for the 1 hammer? I can play more tonight, or hand off if someone has time for the next few days.

[Edit: Once we have Hunting we won't be able to build any more warriors. But archers aren't much more expensive.]

Xcalibrator · Mar 11, 2012

Now cleansed of any guilt over letting Vijay fall (see post above), I played another 4 turns to T85, 750 BC. I'd like to hand off now. Vijay has been thoroughly retaken (with 4 axes), Hunting and Archery are done, a library will be completed in Bolly next turn, and our cities are again safe and growing. However, Confusion was founded on T85. Before all the barb and war business we were hoping for T87, so at least we have the comfort of knowing we'd have failed anyway. :rolleyes:

Save has been uploaded. More thoughts later. Who's up?

Spoiler Upload log :

Spoiler BUFFY log :

Deckhand · Mar 11, 2012

Xcalibrator said:
Attitude Change: Hatsegawa (Egypt) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Why did you annoy Cuteness?

Spoiler :

SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Ultraviolet Catastrophe

Warlord

Deity

Warlord

Deity

Deity

Ultraviolet Catastrophe

Warlord

Deity

Ultraviolet Catastrophe

Deity

Prince

Ultraviolet Catastrophe

Attachments

Deity

Warlord

Deity

Procrastination at its finest

Ultraviolet Catastrophe

Ultraviolet Catastrophe

Procrastination at its finest

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