Embassies pointless until Education. Marginally better thereafter.

moysturfurmer · Jul 11, 2013

In my experience, trading embassies w/ another civ is a good way to get yourself DoWed. Doubly so for Open Borders. Research agreements are alright, but if you're anything like me you spend all your gold on other things. I've literally never signed a Defensive Pact.

I just think it's a little odd that you can be an embassy-less hermit kingdom but still make trades/DoFs with other civs. That's not to say I think an Embassy should be required to do those things, I just think there should be more of an incentive to adopt them.

On a semi-related note, I find that too much of the world is still covered in clouds by the time Satellites come around. I yearn for the ability to trade maps like in Civ IV. Oh hey I just figured out how to make Embassies worth it; Firaxis, that one's on the house.

Gamewizard · Jul 11, 2013

Shared embassies create positive modifiers with the AI...a small one, but hey, everything counts!

Zenstrive · Jul 11, 2013

Can you make DoF with other civ without embassies?

moysturfurmer · Jul 11, 2013

yea. That's all I've been doing in my latest game. Haven't established a single embassy, friends with 7 of 8 civs.

Delodax · Jul 11, 2013

I agree, there should be more bonuses to having an embassy and/or connect it to other diplomatic actions. Good to see there is some purpose to it at least, with the RA:s.

Maxym · Jul 11, 2013

You can get 1gpt for them or trade for embassy in their cap and know where next victim is.

Scott Jegg · Jul 11, 2013

moysturfurmer said:
In my experience, trading embassies w/ another civ is a good way to get yourself DoWed.

I've never noticed this. If you look weak or are close to an AI with above average aggression, chances are you are getting attacked regardless of having an embassy.

If anything the diplo bonus from embassy have pushed me from 209gp per lux from a neutral AI up to the required 240. I can't says for certain, but I think have an embassy leads to quicker DoF. If that's the case it's worthwhile building embassies to get trading spare Lux for hard cash quicker in BNW.

Sonereal · Jul 11, 2013

Embassies are good for finding capitals, and therefore establishing trade routes early on.

Ahriman · Jul 11, 2013

They're also good for fulfilling "find civ X" quests from city states.

moysturfurmer · Jul 11, 2013

Scott Jegg said:
I've never noticed this. If you look weak or are close to an AI with above average aggression, chances are you are getting attacked regardless of having an embassy.

If anything the diplo bonus from embassy have pushed me from 209gp per lux from a neutral AI up to the required 240. I can't says for certain, but I think have an embassy leads to quicker DoF. If that's the case it's worthwhile building embassies to get trading spare Lux for hard cash quicker in BNW.

I've sold luxes to Friends for 240 without an embassy in their capital. Granted, perhaps embassies would make it easier to get them to offer 240, but they're not necessary for t in any case.

I should like to see them affect Diplomats/Spies somehow as well, but that doesn't solve the issue of their lack of utility in the early game (map trading map trading map trading, somebody make a petition on change.org)

Scott Jegg · Jul 11, 2013

Friendly civs normally offer full price, unless they are showing as friendly but offering less than 209. This is actually good indicator that you are about to get attacked.

However, I specifically mentioned neutral civs, and I specifically meant they were only offering 209 before an embassy was in place. It's not even relevant in BNW now, but it does highlight the diplo boost before.

The utility of embassies has already been pointed out by others in the thread.

I'm not too sure where you get the idea that having an embassy increases the likeliehood of being attacked. I've never seen any evidence to support this in my games. So for me, there is no reason to not trade embassies.

I think you're being paranoid.

adwcta · Jul 11, 2013

Having an embassy lets them see your capital. This lets them better judge your strength. You are usually weaker than the AI in terms of military in the early game. Giving them an embassy lets them see that and the attack you more often.

On the other side, if they've already seen your capital it doesn't do anything bad.

My general rule is to sell my embassies unless a neighbor did not scout my capital properly (usually if there's hills on his side). If they're not your neighbor, they generally won't covet your lands in the early game, so no harm in letting them see your capital. Letting them see your capital also lets them set up trade routes there.... and builds positive diplo. So, default should be to let them set up.

Tyrvos · Jul 11, 2013

I've never noticed bad side effects from giving other civs embassies in my capital. I just sell it for 1gpt now, which helps in these rough gold starts.

Scott Jegg · Jul 11, 2013

adwcta said:
Having an embassy lets them see your capital. This lets them better judge your strength. You are usually weaker than the AI in terms of military in the early game. Giving them an embassy lets them see that and the attack you more often.

The AI knows how strong your military is without having an embassy. It's just a number to them.

Xichael · Jul 11, 2013

Yeah, right now establishing an embassy is essentially a guaranteed DoW in my first three games. I don't establish them anymore until research agreements.

I have used Defensive Pacts before, and they worked quite well.

Scott Jegg · Jul 11, 2013

Xichael said:
Yeah, right now establishing an embassy is essentially a guaranteed DoW in my first three games. I don't establish them anymore until research agreements.

I have used Defensive Pacts before, and they worked quite well.

I just cannot fathom this.

Unless I'm really isolated, I get DoWed every single game. I expect it. If 50 or 60 turns pass and I've not been to war yet, I wonder what's going on. It's nothing to do with having embassies. It feels like you are reaching for reasons to understand why you are being attacked.... this is the agenda of the AI. Plain and simple. If you don't get attacked by your nearby civs, it's because they have other fish to fry or they are peaceful in nature. Maybe you play on lower levels and find warring to be a shock, I dunno.

Defensive pacts? Blimey!

Calouste · Jul 11, 2013

Embassies can also give you knowledge of the exact location of the other's capital. Besides it being useful to know exactly how close your neighborhood warmongering maniac is, it's also allows you to get trade routes to them if they are within distance.

SamBC · Jul 11, 2013

I'm confused... according to people on this forum, the AI in BNW never declares war on you... but also, exchanging embassies is a guarantee that the AI will declare war on you.

Ryoga · Jul 11, 2013

I don't get it either, there is a whole thread about people complaining that this game has become too peaceful while here people complain that they'll get DoW'ed as soon as they share their embassies.

Something clearly doesn't add up.

pintocat · Jul 11, 2013

What are the dependencies for each action? Like what things require an embassy, open borders, friendship, etc?

Embassies pointless until Education. Marginally better thereafter.

Emperor

Emperor

Ocean King

Emperor

Chieftain

King

Warlord

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Tyrant

Emperor

Warlord

King

Cu Chulainn

Warlord

Warlord

Warlord

Deity

Emperor

King

Warlord

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