History questions not worth their own thread III

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This "many" are still a very small minority of the population, though, and evidence like that can be very useful in stunting their influence among the majority. If most Americans believe things like that today, it's not because they are blinkered zealots, it's because there isn't a strong enough force pushing back against the zealots to convince them otherwise.

There is no mention of christianity in a political or legal context with the founding of the United States however the very fact that 99%+ of the population were christians at the time, leads on that the instutitions they established were informed from that religion; which held within it morality and a philosophy. Maybe "christian nation" is a stretch too far and Cutlass might be right; but to put it down to zealots is a bit extreme IMO.
 
There is no mention of christianity in a political or legal context with the founding of the United States however the very fact that 99%+ of the population were christians at the time, leads on that the instutitions they established were informed from that religion; which held within it morality and a philosophy. Maybe "christian nation" is a stretch too far and Cutlass might be right; but to put it down to zealots is a bit extreme IMO.
The fact that the majority of the population at the times of its constitution adhered to a given religion- and a very broad religion at that, no one set of practices or beliefs- does not imply that this supplies any essential, eternal religious character to a state. (Just look at the horrendously complicated relationship of the French Republic to the Catholic Church!) After all, a far more pertinent factor informing the original character of the United States was the occupation of the majority of its citizens as small farmers and artisans, and yet nobody every seriously argues that this constitutes an essential and universal character of the United States (in fact, they devote great screeds to justifying its current oligopolistic character). So what makes adherence to a loose set of religious principles, a factor rather secondly to the fundamental constitution of the economy in any realistic historical analysis, so important? Without an answer to that question, it's very difficult to believe that such claims are anything more than claims laid on contemporary political hegemony.

That said, yes, perhaps "zealots" may be a loaded term, but I was giving them the benefit of the doubt in suggesting that they actually believed this stuff. It is indeed a more realistic proposition that their religious beliefs act as a medium through which they can articulate a set of reactionary views that they'd hold one way or the other.
 
There is no mention of christianity in a political or legal context with the founding of the United States however the very fact that 99%+ of the population were christians at the time, leads on that the instutitions they established were informed from that religion; which held within it morality and a philosophy. Maybe "christian nation" is a stretch too far and Cutlass might be right; but to put it down to zealots is a bit extreme IMO.


That doesn't really follow. "They were almost all Christians, so they must have created a Christian country". I mean, does that really make sense? No doubt their values informed their opinions. That essentially always happens. And no doubt their values are informed by their religion. That also always happens. But there are many other influences as well. Particularly the Enlightenment and reaction against the religious persecutions of Europe.
 
You can make a better argument that America was founded on a basis of pagan Roman and Germanic law and customs. It is a well known fact that most of the founders had an almost sexual love of an idealized Rome and Greece.
 
Did Saladin have a captive European who he brought around with him? I swear I've heard about one somewhere who had some special relationship beyond prisoner-captive.
 
You can make a better argument that America was founded on a basis of pagan Roman and Germanic law and customs. It is a well known fact that most of the founders had an almost sexual love of an idealized Rome and Greece.

Didn't the Americans just transplant existing British law to be there law?
And I think the similarities between the American Senate and the Roman one ends with the name. The buildings in D.C are neo-classical, eh.
 
Didn't the Americans just transplant existing British law to be there law?
And I think the similarities between the American Senate and the Roman one ends with the name. The buildings in D.C are neo-classical, eh.

Common law in the US is a continuation of common law in Britain. The courts are largely the same design. What government existed in the US before the revolution was government on the British model, or fairly close to that. But once we decided to ditch the king and lords, there were a lot of structural changes. Congress, for example, isn't a copy of Parliament.
 
Did Saladin have a captive European who he brought around with him? I swear I've heard about one somewhere who had some special relationship beyond prisoner-captive.

He did in the Age of Kings campaign. :p
 
This is Wikipedia on the Phalanx. (specifically Macedonian.) To what extent is this actually true?

I can imagine it's reasonable. Dense forests of relatively thick wooden shafts should provide some protection from arrows, and I can't think of any other way the largely-unarmored Swiss pikemen could have regularly defeated Burgundian longbowmen and crossbowmen. Seriously, how the hell did they do that?
 
You mean, other than missile units being colossally overrated in terms of killing power?

I never said they could mow soldiers down. However, the fact that crossbows and longbows are rather strong (I know, I know, hardly ever able to punch through proper armor), and the fact that the average Swiss pikeman had little to no armor, suggest that they should've taken substantial losses to archery. Yes, yes, at Agincourt and Crecy English archery didn't kill many people, but the French knights were typically heavily armored. Against lightly- or unarmored targets in very dense formations, losses should've been higher.
 
There is no mention of christianity in a political or legal context with the founding of the United States however the very fact that 99%+ of the population were christians at the time, leads on that the instutitions they established were informed from that religion; which held within it morality and a philosophy. Maybe "christian nation" is a stretch too far and Cutlass might be right; but to put it down to zealots is a bit extreme IMO.

There's Christianity and then there's Christianity. Most of these people were Deists (witness the "Jefferson Bible" for example), but it was usual for English-speaking Deists to regard themselves as reforming Christians even though they rejected many traditional Christian beliefs and practices. In France, people with precisely the same views regarded themselves as anti-Christians (think of the Militaire Philosophe, Voltaire, etc.). Claiming that the US is a "Christian nation" because it was founded by Christians may be true in some senses, but it is misleading because it blurs the huge differences between the "Christians" who founded it and the "Christians" who now inhabit it.
 
What was the name of the Catholic council (I think it was 13th century) that essentialy banned the works of Aristotle?
 
Apparently it was a council of Paris in 1210?
 
It wasn't ecumenical. It was basically the faculty of the local university (?) deciding "yo these philosophucks suck".
 
What was the name of the Catholic council (I think it was 13th century) that essentialy banned the works of Aristotle?

It was the University of Paris condemnations of 1210 and 1270. It wasn't an ecumenical council, nor did it "technically" ban Aristotle's works, merely the Averroist interpretations (which were at large not taught by St. Thomas Aquinas, but were still somewhat popular in his era). Regardless, they were specifically aimed at peripatetic scholasticism, and some of the condemnations were overturned later.
 
That is partly right, although in fact certain books of Aristotle himself were banned, at least in theory. I would also say that the idea that Averroist interpretations of Aristotle were popular in Paris at the time is to believe too much the alarmism of the day - in fact there's not much evidence for what we'd think of as classically Averroist views. Even supposedly card-carrying Averroists such as Siger of Brabant seem not to have held the more extreme views attributed to them.

There were actually two quite different incidents. What happened is this. In the early thirteenth century, there was a movement with Neoplatonic and pantheistic tendencies, not unlike the much earlier thought of Eriugena. It was most associated with Amalric of Bène and David of Dinant. We do not know most of what they actually taught. Amalric recanted his views before Pope Innocent III shortly before dying in around 1206, but his disciples, the "Amalricians", continued to make a noise. In 1210, at the council of Paris, Innocent III condemned Amalric, the Amalricians, and the works (though not the person) of David of Dinant. In one of those nice medieval touches, Amalric was dug up and reburied on unconsecrated ground.

David of Dinant was an Aristotelian scholar who translated, and commented on, the very recently discovered works of Aristotle. These texts of his were widely circulated. Since David was regarded as a pantheistic Amalrician, the general view was that Amalricianism and its pernicious ideas were closely bound up with the study of Aristotle. The university of Paris therefore took the opportunity to ban Aristotle's works on natural philosophy from being read in the arts faculty. Note that it was only the newfound natural philosophical works that were banned (and not even named in the decree), not Aristotle's previously known books on logic, which remained core texts. Also it only applied to the arts faculty, which meant that theologians were still free to read them, and as far as I can tell the ban had no discernible effect other than allowing the then-new university of Toulouse, in 1229, to advertise the fact that its students were allowed to read the books that were banned at Paris. I suppose this was rather like competitors of the iPad advertising that they can play Flash.

The later condemnation wasn't about Amalricianism, it was about Averroism, as LightSpectra said. In 1277 Pope John XXI became worried about certain Aristotelian doctrines supposedly being taught in the arts faculty at Paris. These were a whole range of doctrines, including the eternity of the world and the doctrines associated with Averroism such as the doctrine of "double truth", according to which something could be theologically true but philosophically false. These ideas were associated (justly or not) with characters such as Siger of Brabant, but others were associated with more moderate Aristotelians such as the recently deceased Thomas Aquinas. The Pope was worried that these ideas might spread from the arts faculty (which was inevitably a hotbed of radical thought no matter what anyone did, as the failure of the 1210 ban indicated) to the theology faculty (at which point it would matter, because theology faculties are serious). He therefore instructed Etienne Tempier, the bishop of Paris, to investigate. Tempier commissioned a group of scholars, including Henry of Ghent, to examine the problem. They compiled a list of 219 Aristotelian doctrines, and Tempier condemned them later in that same year.

Just a few days later, Robert Kilwardby, the archbishop of Canterbury, issued a statement of his own, listing doctrines that were not to be taught at Oxford. They included Aquinas' doctrine of the unicity of forms, which Kilwardby believed to have heretical implications (this is the notion that a substance has only a single form). This proscription was subsequently repeated by his successor, John Pecham, who was not only a Franciscan (and thus the mortal enemy of all Dominicans, including Aquinas) but had a deepseated allergy to Aristotle. Naturally, the scholars at Oxford ignored these strictures and insisted that archbishops of Canterbury had no right to tell them what they could teach. One of them, a Franciscan named Richard Knapwell, wrote a book arguing that it was consistent with the faith to believe or reject the doctrine of unicity of forms. Pecham responded to this by simply condemning him. Knapwell protested, in response to which Pecham changed the condemnation to refer only to certain propositions drawn from his work, and not to Knapwell personally. Knapwell was still dissatisfied and went to Rome to protest, where Pope Nicholas IV rejected his complaint. However, the Pope never endorsed Pecham's original condemnation of the unicity theory.

(The Dominicans, of course, went completely off the deep end at this insult to their most famous theologian (even though Kilwardby himself was a Dominican) and in 1279 held a council of their own at which they banned anyone from criticising Thomas Aquinas on any grounds. It took until 1914 for a Pope to endorse Aquinas' theory of the unicity of forms, though.)

The important point here is that the 1277 proscriptions at Paris and Oxford alike were of various doctrines associated with Aristotelian thinkers, not books or Aristotle himself, and some of the doctrines condemned were ones that Aristotle himself would not have held (such as the unicity of forms).
 
Interesting, thank you.
 
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